The Froome Files, test data only thread

[Ventoux Boar]

“The engine was there all along,” says Swart. “He just lost the fat.”

Agreed, there's a lot of confidence in that statement from Swart. Unless Moore truncated it.

You could listen to the podcast, or even ask him on Twitter, but you won't for the reason he explained. This is an excellent example of the cherry-picking and misrepresentation mentioned by Swart. Yet you deny your sole objective is to discredit everyone involved in this exercise.

@44:00
Swart refutes the notion that Froome’s weight loss was the main factor in his transformation. Says it was only one part of the equation. He goes on to explain that Froome carries fat “centrally” which makes him appear really lean, despite his body fat being quite high, such as when he tested at 10% pre-vuelta while looking “absolutely emaciated.”
[I'm still not quite sure what to make of that]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/viewtopic.php?p=1847370#p1847370

The Moore article was the "grande rilascio" on December 3rd of the testing. It should be taken at face value.

Dr. Swart, 3 weeks later after all the talk of contradicting faxes etc. he has walked back on that statement on a podcast? Seriously? The original statement was very matter of fact;

“The engine was there all along,” says Swart. “He just lost the fat.”

How does one move from that statement?

Persisting with the line that Swart puts Froome's performance improvement down to fat loss alone is a gross distortion of his position: actually a lie. You know it. Yet you persist.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Persisting with the line that Swart puts Froome's performance improvement down to fat loss alone is a gross distortion of his position: actually a lie. You know it. Yet you persist.

And anybody who thinks weight loss was not one of the factors in Froome's rise isn't looking at the data on hand objectively.

 

[acoggan]

Speaking of Froome's body composition (and recognizing that photos are a crude way of judging such things), I came across the pic below earlier today, and found it interesting, in that Froome does indeed appear to be carrying a fair bit of fat at the time of the GSK testing, at least as endurance athletes go.

IOW, the 9.8% seems quite believable to me (which of course doesn't say anything about his body composition at the time of the Tour, much less back in 2007).

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

I don't see the relevance of this line of questioning to JS.

Swart is not the topic of this thread.

Move it back to the topic at hand please.

In my humble opinion Swart is a legitimate part of the topic of the thread.
Swart has a stake in both the 2007 and the 2015 data. Though he is particularly involved in the 2015 data, on several occasions (podcast, twitter) he has committed himself also to the 2007 data.
The reliability/trustworhtiness of those two data sets obvious correlates positively with the reliability/trustworhtiness of Swart.

That said, I can't be bothered to engage with him.
I think it's a nobrainer. He's shown his colors plentifully. He's a smart guy yet incapable of discussing even the most basic pieces of evidence wrt Froome and doping.
And he's just. not. a very nice. person.
Even blocking a peace-loving and balanced poster like Florecita, and insulting/ridiculing a dozen of other twitterers without obvious reasons, other than that they were inquiring about Froome and doping.
He's on the bandwagon alright. And as Walsh and Moore have shown, once you're on it, it's darn difficult to get off.

I agree that Swart has a role in Froome's data collection but I don't agree that this thread should disect Jeroen Swart's character.

Perhaps he warrants a thread of his own?

That's something to think about...

What was being discussed was the "approach" and "method" of the testing and less Swart himself. The fact that Swart was attempting to counter the "abuse" Froome faced at the Tour, the testing may not have been exactly impartial. I think the 2015 data is sound. It was the massive leap from the non-validated 2007 data to 2015 is where Swart lost me entirely and probably everyone else.

The only people who agree with you on the 'non-validated' 2007 data is your fellow cronies. You take conspiracy theory to a new level and ignore other evidence to suit your agenda, such as the trainer in Switzerland who said at the time Froome had a very big engine/potential. Let me guess Froome went back in a time machine and bought him off ?

 

[peloton]

Re:

Tucker& Swart part II: http://thecyclingpodcast.com/podcast/42-the-scientists-speak-part-two

Maybe people should listen to this one themselves before making any conclusions from it

Holy sh!t. I thought Swart was supposed to be neutral, but clearly he is anything but that.
Explains all the twitter insults then too I guess, lame.

 

[arcus]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

 

[thehog]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Sadly when it comes to Tucker it brings up a lot of aggressive posters. I think he is very well balanced and he has provided his support to Swart.

 

[motty89]

Interestingly Swart and Tucker seem to have quite similar views on doping, while Lionel Birnie seems to think that unless someone is proven as a doper we shouldn't ask any questions.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

I don't see the relevance of this line of questioning to JS.

Swart is not the topic of this thread.

Move it back to the topic at hand please.

In my humble opinion Swart is a legitimate part of the topic of the thread.
Swart has a stake in both the 2007 and the 2015 data. Though he is particularly involved in the 2015 data, on several occasions (podcast, twitter) he has committed himself also to the 2007 data.
The reliability/trustworhtiness of those two data sets obvious correlates positively with the reliability/trustworhtiness of Swart.

That said, I can't be bothered to engage with him.
I think it's a nobrainer. He's shown his colors plentifully. He's a smart guy yet incapable of discussing even the most basic pieces of evidence wrt Froome and doping.
And he's just. not. a very nice. person.
Even blocking a peace-loving and balanced poster like Florecita, and insulting/ridiculing a dozen of other twitterers without obvious reasons, other than that they were inquiring about Froome and doping.
He's on the bandwagon alright. And as Walsh and Moore have shown, once you're on it, it's darn difficult to get off.

I agree that Swart has a role in Froome's data collection but I don't agree that this thread should disect Jeroen Swart's character.

Perhaps he warrants a thread of his own?

That's something to think about...

What was being discussed was the "approach" and "method" of the testing and less Swart himself. The fact that Swart was attempting to counter the "abuse" Froome faced at the Tour, the testing may not have been exactly impartial. I think the 2015 data is sound. It was the massive leap from the non-validated 2007 data to 2015 is where Swart lost me entirely and probably everyone else.

The only people who agree with you on the 'non-validated' 2007 data is your fellow cronies. You take conspiracy theory to a new level and ignore other evidence to suit your agenda, such as the trainer in Switzerland who said at the time Froome had a very big engine/potential. Let me guess Froome went back in a time machine and bought him off ?

That's a bit rich..

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

 

[heart_attack_man]

Persisting with the line that Swart puts Froome's performance improvement down to fat loss alone is a gross distortion of his position: actually a lie. You know it. Yet you persist.

And anybody who thinks weight loss was not one of the factors in Froome's rise isn't looking at the data on hand objectively.

Indeed - the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

 

[acoggan]

the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

Actually, it can.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

 

[42x16ss]

the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

Actually, it can.

But surely there's a limit to what can be done safely and without pharmaceutical assistance. You can only atrophy to a certain point before experiencing loss of strength, look at anorexics for example.

You've worked with countless athletes and developed a lot of the power modelling and training techniques currently in use, what's your personal experience with this? Have you ever seen an athlete lose weight to an unsafe level but still retain power, or at least power to weight?

 

[acoggan]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Sadly when it comes to Tucker it brings up a lot of aggressive posters. I think he is very well balanced and he has provided his support to Swart.

Considering that they have published together, is that surprising?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

Yes, I'm sure, you're just here for entertainment. Send us those link when you get a moment

 

[acoggan]

the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

Actually, it can.

But surely there's a limit to what can be done safely and without pharmaceutical assistance. You can only atrophy to a certain point before experiencing loss of strength, look at anorexics for example.

You've worked with countless athletes and developed a lot of the power modelling and training techniques currently in use, what's your personal experience with this? Have you ever seen an athlete lose weight to an unsafe level but still retain power, or at least power to weight?

Of course there's a limit, especially if you lose weight too rapidly, or due to life stress - see #10:

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2011/08/top-10-things-ive-learned-using-power.html

As for working with "countless athletes", that's actually not true (I'm a biomedical researcher in a medical school, not a coach or sports scientist). That said, I know of at least two individuals (already relatively lean, mind you) who lost significant amounts of weight (i.e., >5% of their body mass) while not only increasing their power in W/kg, but in absolute W as well (one a World Champion, the other a young cat. 1).

Of course, the question is did Froome manage to pull this off without doping? That is a question I am not in a position to answer.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

Yes, I'm sure, you're just here for entertainment. Send us those link when you get a moment

Why else would I be here? I have no dog in this fight.

As for the link(s), you'll have to hunt for them. I just know that they exist ('cause I was curious and read a couple of the articles).

 

[acoggan]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Yes, he's a scientist rather than a cheer leader.

This.
Nail head.

Swart is also a scientist.

 

[42x16ss]

the real question is how weight loss occurs naturally without losing power. Hint - it doesn't.

Actually, it can.

But surely there's a limit to what can be done safely and without pharmaceutical assistance. You can only atrophy to a certain point before experiencing loss of strength, look at anorexics for example.

You've worked with countless athletes and developed a lot of the power modelling and training techniques currently in use, what's your personal experience with this? Have you ever seen an athlete lose weight to an unsafe level but still retain power, or at least power to weight?

Of course there's a limit, especially if you lose weight too rapidly, or due to life stress - see #10:

http://www.trainingandracingwithapowermeter.com/2011/08/top-10-things-ive-learned-using-power.html

As for working with "countless athletes", that's actually not true (I'm a biomedical researcher in a medical school, not a coach or sports scientist). That said, I know of at least two individuals (already relatively lean, mind you) who lost significant amounts of weight while not only increasing their power relative to body mass, but in absolute terms as well (one a World Champion, the other a young cat. 1).

Of course, the question is did Froome manage to pull this off without doping? That is a question I am not in a position to answer.

Cool, but just how significant was the weight loss? Was this down to the kind of levels that Froome has reached in the recent past? Because there's been points where he makes riders like Andy Schleck and Michael Rasmussen look VERY heavy.

 

[thehog]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Yes, he's a scientist rather than a cheer leader.

This.
Nail head.

I listened for the podcast. It was very odd in parts, Swarts comparison of Wiggins "constant power output" compared to Rassmussen, Contador a Levi in 2007. For one Levi never had that type of attacking ability, nor was Levi attacking against the other two, second Froome in the 2014 Dauphine was attacking in a similarly absurd manner.

The JTL example was also poor, the fact that JTL was testing and training with Sky was ignored prior to joining, Swart pointed to his performance drop at Sky in races. Which is Froome in reverse, Froome was very poor all of his career including Sky then had a right angle improvement. JTL had stepped up a grade and his performance dropped. Froome was in the grupetto in a B race and the decided to almost win a GT 2 weeks later.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Which trainer in Switzerland? I'm sure you have a link for this?

Link(s) have been posted several times to this thread already. Heck, even I know that, and I only peek in here occasionally for the entertainment value.

Yes, I'm sure, you're just here for entertainment. Send us those link when you get a moment

Why else would I be here? I have no dog in this fight.

As for the link(s), you'll have to hunt for them. I just know that they exist ('cause I was curious and read a couple of the articles).

Not sure anyone suggested it was a fight or that you needed to have a dog in it.

You had the time to reply to the post claiming the links, so perhaps just provide them? Or the name of the Swiss trainer who made the remarks?

 

[red_flanders]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Yes, he's a scientist rather than a cheer leader.

This.
Nail head.

I listened for the podcast. It was very odd in parts, Swarts comparison of Wiggins "constant power output" compared to Rassmussen, Contador a Levi in 2007. For one Levi never had that type of attacking ability, nor was Levi attacking against the other two, second Froome in the 2014 Dauphine was attacking in a similarly absurd manner.

The JTL example was also poor, the fact that JTL was testing and training with Sky was ignored prior to joining, Swart pointed to his performance drop at Sky in races. Which is Froome in reverse, Froome was very poor all of his career including Sky then had a right angle improvement. JTL had stepped up a grade and his performance dropped. Froome was in the grupetto in a B race and the decided to almost win a GT 2 weeks later.

Swart starts out defensive (of Froome, Sky, Wiggins...) and just keeps going the whole time. I don't find him credible at all.

 

[arcus]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Sadly when it comes to Tucker it brings up a lot of aggressive posters. I think he is very well balanced and he has provided his support to Swart.

IMO, he articulated his views clearly and concisely. He reiterated that a healthy level of skepticism is mandatory in modern pro-sports, which I think is true (especially when it comes to journalists). I also appreciated that he calmly stood his ground, across the two podcasts, in the face of (what I perceived to be) some pro-Sky/Froome editorializing by one of the hosts.

 

[thehog]

Ross Tucker impressed me in those podcasts.

Yes, he's a scientist rather than a cheer leader.

This.
Nail head.

I listened for the podcast. It was very odd in parts, Swarts comparison of Wiggins "constant power output" compared to Rassmussen, Contador a Levi in 2007. For one Levi never had that type of attacking ability, nor was Levi attacking against the other two, second Froome in the 2014 Dauphine was attacking in a similarly absurd manner.

The JTL example was also poor, the fact that JTL was testing and training with Sky was ignored prior to joining, Swart pointed to his performance drop at Sky in races. Which is Froome in reverse, Froome was very poor all of his career including Sky then had a right angle improvement. JTL had stepped up a grade and his performance dropped. Froome was in the grupetto in a B race and the decided to almost win a GT 2 weeks later.

Swart starts out defensive (of Froome, Sky, Wiggins...) and just keeps going the whole time. I don't find him credible at all.

Froome's friend John-Lee Augstyn (Barloworld/Sky) was coached by Swart, along with knowing Bobby Julich very well.

I don't think it's any surprise or difficult to make the association on where Swart stands, even prior to the testing.

I have spoken to Jeroen and Bobby Julich as well and they have given me a lot of advise on how to look after myself and on my decision to stop. Then over time when I feel ready again and hopefully have no problems from the hip resurfacing, I can start racing again,” Augustyn said.

Friday, May 11, 2012 - http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11840/John-Lee-Augustyn-takes-indefinite-break-from-pro-career.aspx

"A special thank you to Douglas Ryder and MTN though for giving me the chance to race on this amazing team, they gave me all the support I needed. Thanks also to Dr Jeroen Swart my personal coach for all the years that he has mentored and continued to support me all the way through my difficult path, his knowledge is beyond this world and then also to Robert Hunter, for all his advice and never stop believing spirit. I could not have asked for better people to...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/john-lee-augustyn-announces-second-and-final-retirement/

By late May 2011 he was suffering again, mentioning to Sky doctor Richard Freeman by email that he had a cough and phlegm at the Tour of California and wondered if it might be bilharzia. Freeman said he would reply ‘asap’ but, four days later, Froome had heard nothing and instead it was his coach, Bobby Julich, who arranged for blood and other tests

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2673588/Chris-Froomes-secret-battle-Eight-doctors-six-clinics-four-countries-five-different-illnesses-remarkable-personal-struggle-Great-Britains-Tour-France-champion.html#ixzz3udMq1RHX

 

[red_flanders]

Froome's friend John-Lee Augstyn (Barloworld/Sky) was coached by Swart, along with knowing Bobby Julich very well.

I don't think it's any surprise or difficult to make the association on where Swart stands, even prior to the testing.

I have spoken to Jeroen and Bobby Julich as well and they have given me a lot of advise on how to look after myself and on my decision to stop. Then over time when I feel ready again and hopefully have no problems from the hip resurfacing, I can start racing again,” Augustyn said.

Friday, May 11, 2012 - http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/11840/John-Lee-Augustyn-takes-indefinite-break-from-pro-career.aspx

"A special thank you to Douglas Ryder and MTN though for giving me the chance to race on this amazing team, they gave me all the support I needed. Thanks also to Dr Jeroen Swart my personal coach for all the years that he has mentored and continued to support me all the way through my difficult path, his knowledge is beyond this world and then also to Robert Hunter, for all his advice and never stop believing spirit. I could not have asked for better people to...

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/john-lee-augustyn-announces-second-and-final-retirement/

By late May 2011 he was suffering again, mentioning to Sky doctor Richard Freeman by email that he had a cough and phlegm at the Tour of California and wondered if it might be bilharzia. Freeman said he would reply ‘asap’ but, four days later, Froome had heard nothing and instead it was his coach, Bobby Julich, who arranged for blood and other tests

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2673588/Chris-Froomes-secret-battle-Eight-doctors-six-clinics-four-countries-five-different-illnesses-remarkable-personal-struggle-Great-Britains-Tour-France-champion.html#ixzz3udMq1RHX

Interesting. Makes sense given the way he talks about the issue. Sad.