The Froome Files, test data only thread

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Jul 11, 2013
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Reading the last pages here, I wonder if the debated topic is posters posting here, or the Froome tests.

Everyone please make an effort to help steer this thread back on track.

Thanks in advance.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Now I'm the one who is going to go off on a conspiracy tangent. After seeing this tweet:

https://twitter.com/chrisfroome/status/669845927184736256

I can't help but wonder if perhaps Froome (or whomever tweets under his name) knew the sort of brouhaha the release of his data was going to cause, and was getting a little shot in ahead of time.

Of course, it could entirely be coincidence...but in any case, Hoggie, there's the coach (i.e., Michel Theze) who has long been quoted as saying that Froome had a big aerobic "engine."
 
Oct 16, 2010
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theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempts to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.
 
acoggan said:
Now I'm the one who is going to go off on a conspiracy tangent. After seeing this tweet:

https://twitter.com/chrisfroome/status/669845927184736256

I can't help but wonder if perhaps Froome (or whomever tweets under his name) knew the sort of brouhaha the release of his data was going to cause, and was getting a little shot in ahead of time.

Of course, it could entirely be coincidence...but in any case, Hoggie, there's the coach (i.e., Michel Theze) who has long been quoted as saying that Froome had a big aerobic "engine."

From November? You might be right.

He looks fat in that photo! :) I knew it was Michel Theze, I was highliging the irony that you couldn't remember his name or the links, that's how significant the statement was.

a3jtd4.jpg
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re:

sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.
 
Re: Re:

acoggan said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.

To be fair, the links have not materialized as yet...
 
Re: Re:

thehog said:
acoggan said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.

To be fair, the links have not materialized as yet...

I'll assist as no one can actually find it :)

It was in the French newspaper "Froome is no thief" - https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.letelegramme.fr/cyclisme/theze-froome-n-est-pas-un-voleur-27-07-2015-10720128.php

ttp://www.letelegramme.fr/cyclisme/theze-froome-n-est-pas-un-voleur-27-07-2015-10720128.php

Still can't see this "big engine" claim that is being made. Maybe it doesn't actually exist?

@ acoggan, over to you to provide the correct link of the "big engine" statement from Theze.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Re: Re:

acoggan said:
You would assume so. Keep in mind, however, that the 2007 testing really only provides an indirect estimate of his sustainable power back then. The same could actually be said about the 2015 testing.

IOW, it's possible that Froome's absolute power has increased some over the years, even if his VO2max (in L/min) has reportedly gone down a little.
But, and lets stop kidding, you are a smart man, I am not a dumb man, wouldnt that show in more than one time trial over all those years?

I would say John Swanson's calculations on his time trial performances are pretty spot on in that regard?
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re:

sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempts to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

What has said Theze is not important for at suck kind of reasons:
- he could lie
- the 2007 data are erroneous(for exemple badly conducted or results coocked, ...)
- Froome was doped

So the 2007 big engine is just an hypothese in all cases, and should be mentionned like that.
 
Re: Re:

poupou said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempts to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

What has said Theze is not important for at suck kind of reasons:
- he could lie
- the 2007 data are erroneous(for exemple badly conducted or results coocked, ...)
- Froome was doped

So the 2007 big engine is just an hypothese in all cases, and should be mentionned like that.

Are you able to translate the article correctly above? I don't believe there's anywhere on record where he actually said 'big engine'.... in English at least.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
acoggan said:
You would assume so. Keep in mind, however, that the 2007 testing really only provides an indirect estimate of his sustainable power back then. The same could actually be said about the 2015 testing.

IOW, it's possible that Froome's absolute power has increased some over the years, even if his VO2max (in L/min) has reportedly gone down a little.
But, and lets stop kidding, you are a smart man, I am not a dumb man, wouldnt that show in more than one time trial over all those years?

I would say John Swanson's calculations on his time trial performances are pretty spot on in that regard?

<shrug>

I'm only pointing out what conclusions can or can't be drawn based on the physiological data. Specifically, some here seem to have mistakenly assumed that just because his VO2max apparently hasn't increased, his power must not have increased either.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
It was in the French newspaper "Froome is no thief" - https://translate.google.com/translate?depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&nv=1&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&u=http://www.letelegramme.fr/cyclisme/theze-froome-n-est-pas-un-voleur-27-07-2015-10720128.php

ttp://www.letelegramme.fr/cyclisme/theze-froome-n-est-pas-un-voleur-27-07-2015-10720128.php

Still can't see this "big engine" claim that is being made. Maybe it doesn't actually exist?

@ acoggan, over to you to provide the correct link of the "big engine" statement from Theze.

I recall reading (via Google Translate) two stories, one of which was much earlier than the other (2011, maybe?) and more explicitly alluded to Froome's having a VO2max comparable to, e.g., Hinault's. Since you're so insistent (and since I'm bored), I'll see if I can find it for you...but first, here's a quote from the story above (again, translated):

"In 2007, could you imagine that he would become a champion? Honestly, I had never seen a rider perform such tests at the World Centre. It was well above the lot."
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

acoggan said:
I recall reading (via Google Translate) two stories, one of which was much earlier than the other (2011, maybe?) and more explicitly alluded to Froome's having a VO2max comparable to, e.g., Hinault's.

I'm still not sure this it, but in any case:

"Physical qualities uncommon

"It was already a good level physically but not tactically. There was a lot of work to do but a huge margin progression. If at 21/22 years, you have already sharpened runner and knows everything, he will have very little room. Froome, it was the opposite. Physiological tests, carried out at the Center, showed that he had one of the biggest VO2 (*), the largest power."

http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/France-Monde/Sport/Cyclisme/Cyclisme/n/Contenus/Articles/2012/07/16/Tour-de-France-Le-mystere-Froome-decode-1055688
 
Apr 20, 2012
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Re: Re:

acoggan said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
acoggan said:
You would assume so. Keep in mind, however, that the 2007 testing really only provides an indirect estimate of his sustainable power back then. The same could actually be said about the 2015 testing.

IOW, it's possible that Froome's absolute power has increased some over the years, even if his VO2max (in L/min) has reportedly gone down a little.
But, and lets stop kidding, you are a smart man, I am not a dumb man, wouldnt that show in more than one time trial over all those years?

I would say John Swanson's calculations on his time trial performances are pretty spot on in that regard?

<shrug>

I'm only pointing out what conclusions can or can't be drawn based on the physiological data. Specifically, some here seem to have mistakenly assumed that just because his VO2max apparently hasn't increased, his power must not have increased either.
Dont shrug, we are both adults, but thanks for the answer anyways.

I agree with your conclusions, you cant base anything on the results published in that scientific journal called Esquire.

But again, a rider with such power would/could/should have shown some of his potential before in TT's is my non - scientific view of things. TT'ing with the likes of Dan Martin doesnt spring to mind if I am thinking of a bronze medallist at the 2012 Olympics wouldnt you agree?
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Re: Re:

acoggan said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.
alternatively, you could have helped out the poster who was using the statements to support an unwarranted claim re: the 2007 data.
little surprising though you chose to back that up.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

sniper said:
acoggan said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.
alternatively, you could have helped out the poster who was using the statements to support an unwarranted claim re: the 2007 data.
little surprising though you chose to back that up.

Huh?

:confused:
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
acoggan said:
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
acoggan said:
You would assume so. Keep in mind, however, that the 2007 testing really only provides an indirect estimate of his sustainable power back then. The same could actually be said about the 2015 testing.

IOW, it's possible that Froome's absolute power has increased some over the years, even if his VO2max (in L/min) has reportedly gone down a little.
But, and lets stop kidding, you are a smart man, I am not a dumb man, wouldnt that show in more than one time trial over all those years?

I would say John Swanson's calculations on his time trial performances are pretty spot on in that regard?

<shrug>

I'm only pointing out what conclusions can or can't be drawn based on the physiological data. Specifically, some here seem to have mistakenly assumed that just because his VO2max apparently hasn't increased, his power must not have increased either.
Dont shrug, we are both adults, but thanks for the answer anyways.

I agree with your conclusions, you cant base anything on the results published in that scientific journal called Esquire.

But again, a rider with such power would/could/should have shown some of his potential before in TT's is my non - scientific view of things. TT'ing with the likes of Dan Martin doesnt spring to mind if I am thinking of a bronze medallist at the 2012 Olympics wouldnt you agree?

Again, <shrug>.
 
Re: Re:

sniper said:
acoggan said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempt to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

I'm just trying to help out The Hog, who seemed to be unaware of such earlier claims.
alternatively, you could have helped out the poster who was using the statements to support an unwarranted claim re: the 2007 data.
little surprising though you chose to back that up.


For you and Hog, sorry I didn't post it earlier but I have a life and job to go to:

- Are you surprised with its performance?
" No. He already had the natural qualities. One of the big "engines" that I have seen. Then we could not know that he would be part of the best of the Tour. But I knew it could not be that good. What helped, too, is to be on the good team. He is very attentive, which is very open, very receptive, it could only contribute to its progress. There it is in the best conditions, in a team that is running. This is an advantage for him to be in a team like this. "

- What do you say to those who think that his sudden outbreak is weird?
"That does not come from nowhere. Say it's weird, right. He won a stage in the Tour of Italy regions in 2007, and we know what it means. He also won the Breton Mid-August the same year, a good professional race. When you see that, in addition to its physiological qualities and its room for improvement, what is happening today is not surprising. It was made to get there. Add to that his very big commitment, and its progression is logical. "


http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/sports/michel-theze-froome-ne-vient-pas-de-nulle-part-jna0b0n575753


"He impressed me in his first big race in Europe, the Tour of Italian Regions. After falling once or twice in the early stages, he won at the third before Cyril Gautier, playing the test with the team of France hopes. As much as it was awkward on the bike, as he put before the authority to gain the world's best hopes. He was an apprentice but with extraordinary qualities "tells Thèze. "Honestly, I had never seen a rider perform such tests at the World Centre. It was well above the lot."

http://www.cyclismactu.net/news-route-chris-froome-pas-un-voleur-d-apres-michel-theze-51743.html
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re: Re:

thehog said:
poupou said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempts to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

What has said Theze is not important for at suck kind of reasons:
- he could lie
- the 2007 data are erroneous(for exemple badly conducted or results coocked, ...)
- Froome was doped

So the 2007 big engine is just an hypothese in all cases, and should be mentionned like that.

Are you able to translate the article correctly above? I don't believe there's anywhere on record where he actually said 'big engine'.... in English at least.
If I could translate correctly the above article I would do it, but I am not able to put in words the subtility of such kind of interview.
For sure, that article never use "big engine". He just said that Froome was an exceptionnal rider, but, according the whole spirit of Theze words, related to the riders he has known.

FYI, when it was reported that Theze would have said, that Froome had tests as good as Hinault, I tried to find it in french newspapers, but failed. Maybe I should have used more time. Only articles post 2015 TDF had sometimes it with an uncertain wording.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

poupou said:
I must add that when it was reported that Theze would had said, in the past, that Froome had tests as good as Hinault, I tried to find it in french newspaper, but failed. Only articles post 2015 TDF had sometimes it with an uncertain wording.

Have you looked at this one? It seems to specifically mentioned VO2max.

http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/France-Monde/Sport/Cyclisme/Cyclisme/n/Contenus/Articles/2012/07/16/Tour-de-France-Le-mystere-Froome-decode-1055688

Still don't know where I got the Hinault reference, though...
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Re: Re:

Fearless Greg Lemond said:
acoggan said:
Again, <shrug>.
Noted.

<notices Andy Coggins isnt interested in debate/not able to debate/interprete numbers>

I'm not interested in guestimating Froome's power from this TT performances, if that's what you mean. Too many sources of uncertainty for it to be a worthwhile exercise, at least/especially in this context.

EDIT: Oh, and BTW, it's "Coggan", not "Coggins".
 
Re: Re:

poupou said:
thehog said:
poupou said:
sniper said:
theze is french. (just for the record)

more importantly, he's quite obviously quite heavily compromised, so any attempts to use his statements on froome as evidence of the veracity of the 2007 data are either disingenuous or rather naive.

What has said Theze is not important for at suck kind of reasons:
- he could lie
- the 2007 data are erroneous(for exemple badly conducted or results coocked, ...)
- Froome was doped

So the 2007 big engine is just an hypothese in all cases, and should be mentionned like that.

Are you able to translate the article correctly above? I don't believe there's anywhere on record where he actually said 'big engine'.... in English at least.
If I could translate correctly the above article I would do it, but I am not able to put in words the subtility of such kind of interview.
For sure, that article never use "big engine". He just said that Froome was an exceptionnal rider, but, according the whole spirit of Theze words, related to the riders he has known.

FYI, when it was reported that Theze would have said, that Froome had tests as good as Hinault, I tried to find it in french newspapers, but failed. Maybe I should have used more time. Only articles post 2015 TDF had sometimes it with an uncertain wording.


Thanks for that, much appreciated.
 
Jul 19, 2009
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Re: Re:

acoggan said:
poupou said:
I must add that when it was reported that Theze would had said, in the past, that Froome had tests as good as Hinault, I tried to find it in french newspaper, but failed. Only articles post 2015 TDF had sometimes it with an uncertain wording.

Have you looked at this one? It seems to specifically mentioned VO2max.

http://www.lanouvellerepublique.fr/France-Monde/Sport/Cyclisme/Cyclisme/n/Contenus/Articles/2012/07/16/Tour-de-France-Le-mystere-Froome-decode-1055688

Still don't know where I got the Hinault reference, though...
That is the same kind of articles.

Froome had recorded the best results..... of course but referring to what? to who?
I do believe that he use carefully those words and avoid to give an absolute reference, so that everyone can see or interpret it as he wish/ his believe
 

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