The Froome Files, test data only thread

[sniper]

17% body fat. [/quote]

According to Froome himself (as cited e.g. in Vavafroome), he was 'always into nutrition', from his early racing days onwards. I found nice confirmation of that in an anecdote from a guy (University of Johannesburg cycling manager Karel Mouton) who worked/trained with Froome in Johannesburg, in the year 2005:

He [Mouton] recalled how Froome had the management of a five-star Cape Town hotel running around trying to find spinach pasta because the version they served “wasn’t low GI enough” for his race nutrition.

http://mypr.co.za/froome-inspires-alma-maters-championship-bid/4750/2013/06

 

[sniper]

Re:

The biggest red flag for me with Swart is this: Cound and Froome chose him.

the guy was never independent by any stretch of the definition, that much is certain by now.

a bit like with Leinders, the question is no longer "how much of a fraud is he really?", but rather "on whose recommendation was he hired?".

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

The South African Augustyn, Swart and then Julich connection and that Swart was at this years Tour, perhaps Swart should have declined the offer to test? It appears rather odd that he was the one that was called up and accepted the offer. I don't doubt Swart did his job professionally but even with the slightest hint of conflict ones views can be compromised, even inadvertently.

My suggestion to Team Sky was that they have Froome tested at multiple labs, to avoid any appearance of favoritism and to rule out any lab-to-lab variance. In the end, though, it appears that they decided it was better to leave Froome to his own devices, so it couldn't be said that they were orchestrating things.

Was this over the phone or via email? Curious that you are that close to offer advice, given your ongoing misdirection during the Wiggins years.

Over the phone (they called me).

 

[gillan1969]

2015
Does Froome have vested interest in outcome of testing?
What's the biggest variabe in the test?

 

[blackcat]

Re:

come on DW, dont be silly, you need to see him from side profile, and x-ray his stores of internal bodyfat, you well know this.

he was no muscle, only white tissue, skin, bones, and organs. plus 17% fat. simple. if you have a brain

17% body fat. WCC team, Thereze, 2007

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I looked up that internalised fat story and it only appeared to be mentioned for obese people, where it was obvious externally via an enlarged gut profile. Something that is clearly missing here.

I get that individuals are all special and different and stuff, but come on. 17% body fat?

*snort*

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

you need to see him from side profile

almost

Source:http://inrng.com/2011/08/chris-froome-vuelta-leader/
In other photos <2007 he doesn't really "look fat" either
http://www.bicycling.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Froome3_young.jpg
What about him being extremely "flexible" in gaining and loosing weight? But there's only one photo of him (at Konica Minolta) in which he doesn't look as "usual".

thats a good point that has also crossed my mind.
on the konica minolta photo he looks chubby.
judging that photo alone, 17% would maybe be credible.
The 2007 value remains difficult to believe, however, if the anecdotes are true about him having been (a) very aware of nutrition, (b) very ambitious and (c) had been training hard including altitude shortly before the tests.
The BMI doesnt fit 75.6kg either.
Another, more plausible option is then is that his BMI on the data sheet is correct (21), which would put him at ca. 73kg, and probably with a lower bodyfat percentage.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

from Wikiwoo
Froome turned professional in 2007, aged 22, with the South African team, Konica Minolta, withdrawing from university two years into his degree in economics.[23] He competed from April to September for the Union Cycliste Internationale's World Cycling Centre (WCC) team based in Aigle, Switzerland, in the U23 Nations Cup.[24] In May he rode his first stage race, the Giro delle Regioni, winning stage five, riding for WCC.[23][25] In late-May he won stage six of the Tour of Japan, attacking from a breakaway in the 14 lap circuit in Shuzenji.[26] In June he competed at the "B" world championships in Cape Town, placing second to China's Haijun Ma in the 26.8 km (16.7 mi)-long time trial.[27][28] In July he claimed a bronze medal in the road race at the All-Africa Games in Algiers, Algeria.[29] On 26 September, he placed 41st in the under-23 time trial at the world championships in Stuttgart, three minutes and 30 seconds behind the gold medalist, Lars Boom (Netherlands).[30]

so, a bronze medal in July at the All-Africa Games. July is when he did the tests, so he must have been in shape.
A certain Daryl Impey won that race, by the way.

 

[Lyon]

Re:

I looked up that internalised fat story and it only appeared to be mentioned for obese people, where it was obvious externally via an enlarged gut profile. Something that is clearly missing here.

I get that individuals are all special and different and stuff, but come on. 17% body fat?

*snort*

It's Eskimo-fat, that's what got JV interested. Imagine a team where everybody has crazy-adaptive Eskimo-fat. Classics today, mountains tomorrow.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

The biggest red flag for me with Swart is this: Cound and Froome chose him.

the guy was never independent by any stretch of the definition, that much is certain by now.

a bit like with Leinders, the question is no longer "how much of a fraud is he really?", but rather "on whose recommendation was he hired?".

It should be clarified that he was not hired to test Froome in 2015.

Definition of 'Hire': employ (someone) for wages.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

i never said swart was hired and its besides the point.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Ahem... Dr. Swart already announced that he was not paid.

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart Dec 9
For all of the crowd wildly speculating on the @Cyclingnewsfeed clinic: I wasn't paid to do any of the tests and I don't work for GSK.

 

[Irondan]

The fact that Swart has specifically said that he wasn't paid for the test has been established.

Speculating that he is lying is not going to further this discussion because there's no proof or even rumors to the contrary of what Dr. Swart tweeted.

Let's move on please.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Ahem... Dr. Swart already announced that he was not paid.

Jeroen Swart ‏@JeroenSwart Dec 9
For all of the crowd wildly speculating on the @Cyclingnewsfeed clinic: I wasn't paid to do any of the tests and I don't work for GSK.

Swart could not buy the publicity he is getting for doing these tests!

I really doubt others will be lining Swart up to do 'independent' tests and hoping for 'clean' results.

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

The fact that Swart has specifically said that he wasn't paid for the test has been established.

Speculating that he is lying is not going to further this discussion because there's no proof or even rumors to the contrary of what Dr. Swart tweeted.

Let's move on please.

perhaps he should have been paid and perhaps there should have been a contract...as then we would know what his brief was...what we currently have is a mess...no clear terms of reference (page 1 of report is certainly mixed as to the tests' purpose) and an opaque relationship between tester and subject....this would be a red flag for many a professional body re codes of conduct as obviously the question is...if he's not being paid what's in for Swart?...you can add to that the fact that the subject has a vested interest in a particular outcome...

so....clear as mud mr swart

 

[Merckx index]

I looked up that internalised fat story and it only appeared to be mentioned for obese people, where it was obvious externally via an enlarged gut profile. Something that is clearly missing here.

I get that individuals are all special and different and stuff, but come on. 17% body fat?

*snort*

I am quite thin, look like I could be a climber if I lost a few kg. I had my body fat measured by one of these scales last year, and to my astonishment, it was > 25%. They said I have a lot of this visceral fat, which surrounds the internal organs and does not reveal itself in the body profile.

so, a bronze medal in July at the All-Africa Games. July is when he did the tests, so he must have been in shape.
A certain Daryl Impey won that race, by the way.

Yes, I discussed this before. He was tested about ten days after that race. While Swart estimated that Froome might have gained 3 kg between the TDF and the August tests, my guess is that Froome did not gain that much in ten days or so following a one day race. I'd think that if he really weighed 75.6 kg at the tests, his racing weight was probably around 74 kg, at least.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re: Re:

perhaps he should have been paid and perhaps there should have been a contract...as then we would know what his brief was...what we currently have is a mess...no clear terms of reference (page 1 of report is certainly mixed as to the tests' purpose) and an opaque relationship between tester and subject....this would be a red flag for many a professional body re codes of conduct as obviously the question is...if he's not being paid what's in for Swart?...you can add to that the fact that the subject has a vested interest in a particular outcome...

so....clear as mud mr swart

He is paid a salary by his university. Publications help secure promotion and/ or tenure. Unless you can specify an example where an actual code of conduct is being breached, you should move on. Froome's motivation is a red herring.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

The fact that Swart has specifically said that he wasn't paid for the test has been established.

Speculating that he is lying is not going to further this discussion because there's no proof or even rumors to the contrary of what Dr. Swart tweeted.

Let's move on please.

perhaps he should have been paid and perhaps there should have been a contract...as then we would know what his brief was...what we currently have is a mess...no clear terms of reference (page 1 of report is certainly mixed as to the tests' purpose) and an opaque relationship between tester and subject....this would be a red flag for many a professional body re codes of conduct as obviously the question is...if he's not being paid what's in for Swart?...you can add to that the fact that the subject has a vested interest in a particular outcome...

so....clear as mud mr swart

I asked nicely to move on from this type of speculation but here we are still speculating.

There was a long discussion WRT Dr. Swart's motivation to conduct these tests earlier in this thread.

Please refer back to those comments for any further information on this subject.

 

[blackcat]

Re:

The fact that Swart has specifically said that he wasn't paid for the test has been established.

Speculating that he is lying is not going to further this discussion because there's no proof or even rumors to the contrary of what Dr. Swart tweeted.

Let's move on please.

but the premise here is the only compensation that could represent ulterior motive is money.

this assumption is incorrect. mere association with a Tour de France winner and being able to drop said winner's name, can be valuable.

Armstrong actually demanded Chris Carmichael give him a slice of his coaching services business to be associated as "Lance's coach".

there is a professional prestige and allure.

there are many many other motives besides lucre.


*just a devil's advocate

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re:

I looked up that internalised fat story and it only appeared to be mentioned for obese people, where it was obvious externally via an enlarged gut profile. Something that is clearly missing here.

I get that individuals are all special and different and stuff, but come on. 17% body fat?

*snort*

I am quite thin, look like I could be a climber if I lost a few kg. I had my body fat measured by one of these scales last year, and to my astonishment, it was > 25%. They said I have a lot of this visceral fat, which surrounds the internal organs and does not reveal itself in the body profile.

Understood.

I think being
* 22 and
* training and racing to be a pro at the World Cycling centre

is going to have a significant impact on the alleged internal fat stores.

His metabolism, attention to diet and energy expenditure is going to be drawing on fat reserves significantly moreso than yours.

During exercise, what I read is internal fat goes before external, which makes sense as it has more blood flow nearby to shift the fat.

 

[GW15something]

If you all want some more valuable answers and a paper trail look at Konica-Minolta, management and events associated as it carried on over the years with name/sponsor changes. 1 positive name is always popping up.

 

[GW15something]

Re: Re:

There's also sniper, who attempted to imply that A) I am somehow associated with Mark Burnley, and B) I/we had something to do with the acceptance of Coyle's paper on Armstrong by JAP,

ill-informed speculation indeed.
i did/said/implied neither (a) nor (b).

seemingly not knowing (or caring) about the actual timeline of events,

well-informed, this time. (not caring, that is.)

or even the limited role that members of the editorial boards play at scientific journals.

more ill-informed speculation.

the only thing i said wrt coyle 2005 is that you were all over the place deflecting away from justified skepticism.

as for Burnley. I just thought it was funny you two were on the same board, as you both seem to me to be in the habit of using pseudo-scientific data as an argument to draw attention away from doping, a topic both of you only grudgingly touch upon.
basically, if floyd hadnt fessed up, you and burnley would still be cheerleading coyle's article.
i think that's a fair bit of speculation.

Sniper: I am unable to reply to your PM. It wont allow me to says I need more post on here. Sorry about that but will when I am able.

 

[sniper]

no probs! thanks for the headsup

 

[Irondan]

@GW15something You need 10 comments posted to your profile before you can PM anyone.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

you need to see him from side profile

almost

Source:http://inrng.com/2011/08/chris-froome-vuelta-leader/
In other photos <2007 he doesn't really "look fat" either
http://www.bicycling.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/Froome3_young.jpg
What about him being extremely "flexible" in gaining and loosing weight? But there's only one photo of him (at Konica Minolta) in which he doesn't look as "usual".

thats a good point that has also crossed my mind.
on the konica minolta photo he looks chubby.
judging that photo alone, 17% would maybe be credible.
The 2007 value remains difficult to believe, however, if the anecdotes are true about him having been (a) very aware of nutrition, (b) very ambitious and (c) had been training hard including altitude shortly before the tests.
The BMI doesnt fit 75.6kg either.
Another, more plausible option is then is that his BMI on the data sheet is correct (21), which would put him at ca. 73kg, and probably with a lower bodyfat percentage.

more likley it is just all bull$h!t, all lies.
#bovine
#scatsasascat
@ology
#scatology