The Froome Files, test data only thread

[blackcat]

real fat
real bull$h!t
or real phat
or even chubby

if the sports scientists are truthful, one can see from their own eyes, he did not even have a core or abdomen around his organs where thee fictitious stores of bodyfat are supposed to go.

let you look with your own eyes

and the scientists can say visual anecdotal evidence is not science, well, NEITHER is deflection, diversion, dissembling, and specious n spurious arguments about fictitious 17% bf internal stores. You folks owe Dear Wiggo an apology.

you choose

yeah he was just so unfit and so fat when he rode to the top 20 in his first TdF with Barlo alongside Soler KOM and Kansta Siutsou. Well, he prolly finished about 23, cos someone will no doubt call me on my error.

this was him in 2012, after the weightloss at Sky, he certainly does not look 17% v 5% bull$h!t.

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

I looked up that internalised fat story and it only appeared to be mentioned for obese people, where it was obvious externally via an enlarged gut profile. Something that is clearly missing here.

I get that individuals are all special and different and stuff, but come on. 17% body fat?

*snort*

It's Eskimo-fat, that's what got JV interested. Imagine a team where everybody has crazy-adaptive Eskimo-fat. Classics today, mountains tomorrow.

Tommy D and F-doggie-dawg are cousins in inuit fat.

 

[blackcat]

the more ridiculous the justifications become, merely serve the exceptions that PROVE the rule paradigm.

They bring out more and more ridiculous justifications, which, when they become the trend, is a strong self-indictment.

just STFU like Indurain. People know that cyclists and winning cyclists dope. accept it. There will always be those who spend 5k for an international (or merely intra-continental european) holiday in July, who become very pi$$ed off when it becomes so obvious that one team is behaving like USPS and they feel taken for a fool and have spent alot of dough. Ofcourse all the other teams are doping, but they do not seem to be so egregious. Sky and Brailsford may well call this professionalism, and being superior, but the fact is, the superior teams will be superior in everything and still have the best <cough cough> 'medical program'.

So you just gotta lump it British Cycling and Sky Procycling fanboi(s)

 

[blackcat]

Re:

@GW15something You need 10 comments posted to your profile before you can PM anyone.

GW1516
Aicar
Lipotropin

it will be these drugs that render the red and white tissue.

And as is now the 'talking point' these sports scientists have adopted, the 'internal bodyfat stores'.

have any one of these sports scientists, raised a question, that is some professional sportsperson who plays in a lighweight sport (jockey/distancerunner/rrcycling grimpeur), if these athletes lose an extra 10% on the scales, from their fit weights, what on earth is happening inside their body and with their organs. The parts of the body we cannot see? what is happening to these crucial functions in the short-term, medium term, and long term.***

***short short short term, well, he is obviously winning the Tour so the critical functions must be humming like a F1

like the actor Christian Bale did in the MAchinist (was it not an adaptation of Dostoevsky's The Idiot?)

 

[blackcat]

Re: Re:

Definition of 'Hire': employ (someone) for wages.

there are multitude of other forms of compensation. It is fare to say, that both parties were beneficiaries in this non-fiat transaction

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

real fat
real bull$h!t
or real phat
or even chubby

if the sports scientists are truthful, one can see from their own eyes, he did not even have a core or abdomen around his organs where thee fictitious stores of bodyfat are supposed to go.

let you look with your own eyes

and the scientists can say visual anecdotal evidence is not science, well, NEITHER is deflection, diversion, dissembling, and specious n spurious arguments about fictitious 17% bf internal stores. You folks owe Dear Wiggo an apology.

you choose

yeah he was just so unfit and so fat when he rode to the top 20 in his first TdF with Barlo alongside Soler KOM and Kansta Siutsou. Well, he prolly finished about 23, cos someone will no doubt call me on my error.

this was him in 2012, after the weightloss at Sky, he certainly does not look 17% v 5% bull$h!t.

I just want to call BS on something else. Wasn't the story that Froome didn't have decent gear until Barloworld, or even Sky? Looking at the fourth photo down, Froome is riding a Cervelo Soloist (a pro level frame until late 2006), with 10s Record (again pro level), Zipp front wheel, HeD rear and an SRM.

I would hate for that to be my low end gear

 

[Irondan]

This thread has turned into a general Froome discussion, which we explicitly were against when we made the decision to open this thread.

I've moved some comments to the Froome talk only thread and intend on moving more that don't belong here when I get a little more time.

Please help keep this thread readable and on track by only posting to the topic at hand.

Cheers!

 

[sniper]

funny how all roads seem to lead to Lausanne these days.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/673830299034370048

 

[gillan1969]

Re:

funny how all roads seem to lead to Lausanne these days.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/673830299034370048

Burnley is still brilliant..."there we have it"...the assumption is that all published data is good data..

the gap within that man's hat grows

case closed...nothing to see here

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

funny how all roads seem to lead to Lausanne these days.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/673830299034370048

Burnley is still brilliant..."there we have it"...the assumption is that all published data is good data..

the gap within that man's hat grows

case closed...nothing to see here

yeah i remember that one:
https://twitter.com/DrMarkBurnley/status/673923921033494530

indeed thats the logic of a goldfish as dearwiggo eloquently put it on twitter.
or just totally disingenuous.
whether dumb as a goldfish or disingenuous, in either case you wonder why a world-renowned independent thinker like Swart would tag team with him.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

funny how all roads seem to lead to Lausanne these days.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/673830299034370048

Burnley is still brilliant..."there we have it"...the assumption is that all published data is good data..

the gap within that man's hat grows

case closed...nothing to see here

yeah i remember that one:
https://twitter.com/DrMarkBurnley/status/673923921033494530

indeed thats the logic of a goldfish as dearwiggo eloquently put it on twitter.
or just totally disingenuous.
whether dumb as a goldfish or disingenuous, in either case you wonder why a world-renowned independent thinker like Swart would tag team with him.

An interesting, if not rather obvious, chapter from an 'academic' book entitled Tobacco industry manipulation of research'. Check the 4 strategies vs Sky/Froome

This chapter describes the strategies that the
tobacco industry has used to influence the design,
conduct and publication of scientific research on
second‑hand smoke; and how the tobacco industry
used this research in attempts to influence policy.
It represents an expansion of an earlier article,
'Tobacco industry manipulation of research' by Bero
(2005).
The primary motivation of the tobacco industry
has been to generate controversy about the health
risks of its products. The industry has used several
strategies including:
1. funding and publishing research that supports
its position;
2. suppressing and criticising research that does
not support its position;
3. changing the standards for scientific research;
4. disseminating interest group data or
interpretation of risks via the lay (non‑academic)
press and directly to policymakers.
The strategies used by the tobacco industry have
remained remarkably constant since the early 1950s


1 - commission your own study
2 - psuedo-scientists
3 - well...they just make stuff up
4 - cue walsh and his nutella and esquire with weight

and to crown it all off...the strategies used by doping cuyclists have remained remarkably contant since the mid 1990s

 

[The Carrot]

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

 

[thehog]

So getting back to the timeline of the 2007 dataset...

May 20th - 27th - Tour of Japan
July 17th - 23rd - All African Games, 3rd in 150km race behind Impey, Algiers, Algeria (Froome stayed until 23rd according to Va Va Froome) - Results and story from the 17th - http://www.nation.sc/article.html?id=217042
July 25th - Test in Lausanne (not mentioned in either books)
August 10th 2007 - Mi-Aout en Bretagne
August 22nd - 28th - GP Tell Switzerland

So the story goes, Froome trained like a demon, arrives in Aigle, stays in Belgium from April, races in Japan, Algeria then stepped off a flight on the 23rd, two days later records Hinault like race numbers but is overweight carrying 17% bodyfat, doesn't bother to mention it in either book, keeps on racing and makes mention of these races with average performances. Truly bizarre.

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

 

[armchairclimber]

So getting back to the timeline of the 2007 dataset...

May 20th - 27th - Tour of Japan
July 17th - 23rd - All African Games, 3rd in 150km race behind Impey, Algiers, Algeria (Froome stayed until 23rd according to Va Va Froome) - Results and story from the 17th - http://www.nation.sc/article.html?id=217042
July 25th - Test in Lausanne (not mentioned in either books)
August 10th 2007 - Mi-Aout en Bretagne
August 22nd - 28th - GP Tell Switzerland

So the story goes, Froome trained like a demon, arrives in Aigle, stays in Belgium from April, races in Japan, Algeria then stepped off a flight on the 23rd, two days later records Hinault like race numbers but is overweight carrying 17% bodyfat, doesn't bother to mention it in either book, keeps on racing and makes mention of these races with average performances. Truly bizarre.

Devil's advocate here ... firstly, I don't think it's that bizarre that the test wasn't mentioned in either book. Secondly, I don't find the 17% body fat figure incredible at all. It's not a ridiculously high figure even for a sportsman....and it does look consistent with the photos we see of him looking emaciated for the tour etc. He is a tall rider, so can probably carry a fair bit of adipose tissue without looking too fat.
So, why not bizarre? I don't think that when he (Walsh) was writing that the tests would have been that significant. With the weight he was carrying, although absolute power was good, power to weight wasn't much to get excited about. It's only in retrospect that the 2007 test looks interesting. I don't think the remarks from the UCI coach suggesting that he had Hinault-esque numbers had been made at that point....they certainly weren't widely broadcast. They were retrospective as well .... so perhaps the past was being seen through pink glasses...ie, the coach was making a statement with hindsight "Oh yeah, we knew he was epic all along", when he probably hadn't even thought about Froome very much until he suddenly became the best rider ever to climb on a bike.

It's a problem we all have here.... we're not seeing a narrative as it happened, we're trying to piece it together retrospectively ... it's a jigsaw, we can see the picture on the box but half of the pieces are missing.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

+1.

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

Hint: It's Sir Dave. Pro sport and all its associations reside in a very small world.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

Yeah sure they are going to diss a big professional sports team, athletes and sponsors will come flocking to them for doing that!

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

Yeah sure they are going to diss a big professional sports team, athletes and sponsors will come flocking to them for doing that!

Exactly this, you don't burn bridges in this game, especially with one of the most powerful men in sport who has Murdoch covering his back. This is not a criticism of those who did the test by the way. You might be at the Univeristy of Capetown now but you might want to work somewhere else one day.

I have now got bogged down in this thread also.

 

[.Froomestrong.]

So getting back to the timeline of the 2007 dataset...

May 20th - 27th - Tour of Japan
July 17th - 23rd - All African Games, 3rd in 150km race behind Impey, Algiers, Algeria (Froome stayed until 23rd according to Va Va Froome) - Results and story from the 17th - http://www.nation.sc/article.html?id=217042
July 25th - Test in Lausanne (not mentioned in either books)
August 10th 2007 - Mi-Aout en Bretagne
August 22nd - 28th - GP Tell Switzerland

So the story goes, Froome trained like a demon, arrives in Aigle, stays in Belgium from April, races in Japan, Algeria then stepped off a flight on the 23rd, two days later records Hinault like race numbers but is overweight carrying 17% bodyfat, doesn't bother to mention it in either book, keeps on racing and makes mention of these races with average performances. Truly bizarre.

Devil's advocate here ... firstly, I don't think it's that bizarre that the test wasn't mentioned in either book. Secondly, I don't find the 17% body fat figure incredible at all. It's not a ridiculously high figure even for a sportsman....and it does look consistent with the photos we see of him looking emaciated for the tour etc. He is a tall rider, so can probably carry a fair bit of adipose tissue without looking too fat.

They were retrospective as well .... so perhaps the past was being seen through pink glasses...ie, the coach was making a statement with hindsight "Oh yeah, we knew he was epic all along", when he probably hadn't even thought about Froome very much until he suddenly became the best rider ever to climb on a bike.

I must be confused. Are you suggesting that there is a cyclist in the World Tour that is 17% bodyfat?

I think you would be hard-pressed to find any professional endurance athlete that is over 10% during the season, and certainly you would not find such an athlete that would then go on to dominate his sport.

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Exactly this, you don't burn bridges in this game, especially with one of the most powerful men in sport who has Murdoch covering his back. This is not a criticism of those who did the test by the way. You might be at the Univeristy of Capetown now but you might want to work somewhere else one day.

You have absolutely no clue how academia works, do you?

 

[Winterfold]

Re: Re:

Exactly this, you don't burn bridges in this game, especially with one of the most powerful men in sport who has Murdoch covering his back. This is not a criticism of those who did the test by the way. You might be at the Univeristy of Capetown now but you might want to work somewhere else one day.

You have absolutely no clue how academia works, do you?

Yes that comment made me chuckle when thinking of some of the peer review comments my Prof has had and he is a global authority, influential at ministerial level etc

 

[armchairclimber]

So getting back to the timeline of the 2007 dataset...

May 20th - 27th - Tour of Japan
July 17th - 23rd - All African Games, 3rd in 150km race behind Impey, Algiers, Algeria (Froome stayed until 23rd according to Va Va Froome) - Results and story from the 17th - http://www.nation.sc/article.html?id=217042
July 25th - Test in Lausanne (not mentioned in either books)
August 10th 2007 - Mi-Aout en Bretagne
August 22nd - 28th - GP Tell Switzerland

So the story goes, Froome trained like a demon, arrives in Aigle, stays in Belgium from April, races in Japan, Algeria then stepped off a flight on the 23rd, two days later records Hinault like race numbers but is overweight carrying 17% bodyfat, doesn't bother to mention it in either book, keeps on racing and makes mention of these races with average performances. Truly bizarre.

Devil's advocate here ... firstly, I don't think it's that bizarre that the test wasn't mentioned in either book. Secondly, I don't find the 17% body fat figure incredible at all. It's not a ridiculously high figure even for a sportsman....and it does look consistent with the photos we see of him looking emaciated for the tour etc. He is a tall rider, so can probably carry a fair bit of adipose tissue without looking too fat.

They were retrospective as well .... so perhaps the past was being seen through pink glasses...ie, the coach was making a statement with hindsight "Oh yeah, we knew he was epic all along", when he probably hadn't even thought about Froome very much until he suddenly became the best rider ever to climb on a bike.

I must be confused. Are you suggesting that there is a cyclist in the World Tour that is 17% bodyfat?

I think you would be hard-pressed to find any professional endurance athlete that is over 10% during the season, and certainly you would not find such an athlete that would then go on to dominate his sport.

I'm saying that Froome probably was. He looks emaciated at just under 10% body fat. I'm not doubting the 2007 data YET.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Good post from gillan1969.

Can't believe some people are getting so 'bogged down' in this one. Even if the bloke who ran the tests is technically 'independent', I don't doubt he's clever enough understand that if he released anything that Sir Dave wouldn't approve of he won't work again. Rocking the boat don't pay the bills.

All I need to know about Sky/Froome is: 2 ridiculous transformations post Leinders in time for 2012, both in the same 'loosing weight while gaining power' manner while going as fast as Lance Armstrong.

What sway do you honestly think sir dave has at the univ of cape town? Hint: zero.

Yeah sure they are going to diss a big professional sports team, athletes and sponsors will come flocking to them for doing that!

Exactly this, you don't burn bridges in this game, especially with one of the most powerful men in sport who has Murdoch covering his back. This is not a criticism of those who did the test by the way. You might be at the Univeristy of Capetown now but you might want to work somewhere else one day.

I have now got bogged down in this thread also.

I think more to the point; a lowly ranked institute in South Africa suburbia, in search of funding, is thrust onto the world stage by testing an internationally known athlete at the very same lab that EiS had used.

Could it provide more funding... who knows, I'm sure the publicity didn't hurt

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-university-rankings/university-of-cape-town?ranking-dataset=1083

 

[The Carrot]

Re: Re:

Exactly this, you don't burn bridges in this game, especially with one of the most powerful men in sport who has Murdoch covering his back. This is not a criticism of those who did the test by the way. You might be at the Univeristy of Capetown now but you might want to work somewhere else one day.

You have absolutely no clue how academia works, do you?

I know how Universities work, and they need money, lots of it. Association with the right people helps also, it's one of the reasons they hand out honorary degrees. So my point stands, they ain't rocking the boat.