The Froome Files, test data only thread

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

[/quote]
Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.[/quote]

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re:

I don't think vayer would 've continued the day without a max heart rate measurement, nor would he have claimed the discrepancy between weight and BMI on the Fax is irrelevant, nor would he have claimed that Froome had the engine all along and just lost the fat on the basis of dodgy fax data.
Just saying, his mind is arguably sharper than the minds of the researchers involved in this testing.

You keep bringing up the heart rate as though it would have provided some deep insight.

With your keen knowledge of exercise physiology I would really like to know what it would have told us and how it relates to anything meaningful.

Looking forward to your response.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.

 

[sniper]

Not just me. Others have brought it up as well. Basically everybody whose curiosity was aroused by the leaked 2013 ventoux file would have liked to see a reliable heart rate measurement. Its odd that you guys missed out on exactly that bit of potentially controversial data. At best it suggests a notable lack of curiosity on the part of the testers.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.

He could publicly call for all GT winners to release all their data. Froome could lead the way by releasing his.

I am aware that Swart is not in control of Froome's data. But muddying waters by testing Froome and allowing Froome/sky to say we got him tested what more do people want is muddying the waters. Swart, imo, is part of that unless he distances himself from it and calls for full transparency from all.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

You overestimate my influence and you misinterpret my role in this.

I have fulfilled my mandate.

Are you asking me to email Brailsford and ask him to release all the data?

I will continue to work in anti-doping here in SA. I have done a lot more to clean up the sport than you ever will.

<edited by mods> somehow makes you relevant to anti-doping work. It doesn't. Your contribution has been absolutely nil. And you see me as the problem?

Time for a reality check.

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Not just me. Others have brought it up as well. Basically everybody whose curiosity was aroused by the leaked 2013 ventoux file would have liked to see a reliable heart rate measurement. Its odd that you guys missed out on exactly that bit of potentially controversial data. At best it suggests a notable lack of curiosity on the part of the testers.

Exactly. These tests were done because others were able to use video images to run tests that point to Froome's massive abilities in winning TdFs that only showed up at 2011 Vuelta!!!

Why at 26?

The jigsaw is incomplete.

I dont expect it to be completed, by it time for Swart to seek transparency if he is on the side of clean sport or get off the ego trip he appears to be on testing Froome.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.

He could publicly call for all GT winners to release all their data. Froome could lead the way by releasing his.

I am aware that Swart is not in control of Froome's data. But muddying waters by testing Froome and allowing Froome/sky to say we got him tested what more do people want is muddying the waters. Swart, imo, is part of that unless he distances himself from it and calls for full transparency from all.

Swart could call for world peace as well but it's not his responsibility. Don't lose your head on this one.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re:

Not just me. Others have brought it up as well. Basically everybody whose curiosity was aroused by the leaked 2013 ventoux file would have liked to see a reliable heart rate measurement. Its odd that you guys missed out on exactly that bit of potentially controversial data. At best it suggests a notable lack of curiosity on the part of the testers.

That doesn't answer the question. What were you hoping to see.

Anyone knowledgable in exercise science isn't concerned about the loss of the heart rate data. Without a dynamic echo it tells us very little.

Move on.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.

He could publicly call for all GT winners to release all their data. Froome could lead the way by releasing his.

I am aware that Swart is not in control of Froome's data. But muddying waters by testing Froome and allowing Froome/sky to say we got him tested what more do people want is muddying the waters. Swart, imo, is part of that unless he distances himself from it and calls for full transparency from all.

Hog i may be mistaken, but Swart does not work for the UN, he is a sports scientist. So sport is relevant to his work.

Asking him to call on athletes to be transparent is to the benefit of sports, athletes and fans. Not hard to do, but it might impinge on ones future as we have seen with whistleblowers.

I dont expect him to do anything, but to come in here and take credit for testing Froome and ignore the logical questioning related to that, well he cant have it all ways.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

Frankly, I applaud Jeroen Swart for what he has published. I don't agree with those who insist it tells us nothing we didn't know before. It does move us closer to understanding the course of Froome's career. The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them.

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.[/quote]

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......[/quote]

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.[/quote]

He could publicly call for all GT winners to release all their data. Froome could lead the way by releasing his.

I am aware that Swart is not in control of Froome's data. But muddying waters by testing Froome and allowing Froome/sky to say we got him tested what more do people want is muddying the waters. Swart, imo, is part of that unless he distances himself from it and calls for full transparency from all.[/quote]


Swart could call for world peace as well but it's not his responsibility. Don't lose your head on this one.[/quote]

I was thinking of doing that next. It might have been more fruitful.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

Thank you for the sentiment. Appreciated.

Thanks in turn for the insightful comments.

Take the compliments but then ignore the important part of the post.

If you were truly interested in clean sports and athletes performing clean, you would be going after this, "The next big piece is the pre-2011 data. Let's see them"

IMO, You are not part of the solution to a clean sport, therefore you are part of the problem.

A reminder of what Jack Robertson said "sport is seriously broken'......

That's not fair, Dr. Swart did not test Froome pre-2011. That data would be for Froome/Sky to release. Yes it would be very interesting comparison but Swart cannot control its release.

He could publicly call for all GT winners to release all their data. Froome could lead the way by releasing his.

I am aware that Swart is not in control of Froome's data. But muddying waters by testing Froome and allowing Froome/sky to say we got him tested what more do people want is muddying the waters. Swart, imo, is part of that unless he distances himself from it and calls for full transparency from all.

Hog i may be mistaken, but Swart does not work for the UN, he is a sports scientist. So sport is relevant to his work.

Asking him to call on athletes to be transparent is to the benefit of sports, athletes and fans. Not hard to do, but it might impinge on ones future as we have seen with whistleblowers.

I dont expect him to do anything, but to come in here and take credit for testing Froome and ignore the logical questioning related to that, well he cant have it all ways.

I am perfectly happy to state publicly that all professionals should be fully transparent with their data.

There you go. Any other forums that you want me to ask them in?

Let's see if that does the trick.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Not just me. Others have brought it up as well. Basically everybody whose curiosity was aroused by the leaked 2013 ventoux file would have liked to see a reliable heart rate measurement. Its odd that you guys missed out on exactly that bit of potentially controversial data. At best it suggests a notable lack of curiosity on the part of the testers.

That doesn't answer the question. What were you hoping to see.

Anyone knowledgable in exercise science isn't concerned about the loss of the heart rate data. Without a dynamic echo it tells us very little.

Move on.

It's just a funny coincidence I guess that you'd miss out on exactly that piece of data. Many would have liked to see it.

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

You said something different in the podcast with Tucker last year.

Iirc u said it would be foolish to release all data because it could fall in the wrong hands.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

Not just me. Others have brought it up as well. Basically everybody whose curiosity was aroused by the leaked 2013 ventoux file would have liked to see a reliable heart rate measurement. Its odd that you guys missed out on exactly that bit of potentially controversial data. At best it suggests a notable lack of curiosity on the part of the testers.

That doesn't answer the question. What were you hoping to see.

Anyone knowledgable in exercise science isn't concerned about the loss of the heart rate data. Without a dynamic echo it tells us very little.

Move on.

It's just a funny coincidence I guess that you'd miss out on exactly that piece of data. Many would have liked to see it.

Yes it was. A funny and rather irrelevant coincidence.

I would still like to know why you think it is relevant since you've spent so much energy on it.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

You said something different in the podcast with Tucker last year.

Iirc u said it would be foolish to release all data because it could fall in the wrong hands.

No. What I said is that I can understand why they wouldn't want to release it as interpreting the data is complex and lay persons interpreting the data can come to erroneous conclusions.

Thanks for once again misrepresenting my comments. You seem to be making a career out of that.

 

[sniper]

Erm, the relevance would have depended on what the measurement would have been.
Again you show a surprising lack of curiosity.
As a scientist you don't always know in advance what certain measurements are going to be good for. Max heart rate was a must have in the context of the ventoux file. Science doesn't happen in a vacuum you know.

 

[noddy69]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

You said something different in the podcast with Tucker last year.

Iirc u said it would be foolish to release all data because it could fall in the wrong hands.

No. What I said is that I can understand why they wouldn't want to release it as interpreting the data is complex and lay persons interpreting the data can come to erroneous conclusions.

Thanks for once again misrepresenting my comments. You seem to be making a career out of that.

Laypersons can come to the wrong conculsions but I doubt it's laypersons that they are worried about .

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

You said something different in the podcast with Tucker last year.

Iirc u said it would be foolish to release all data because it could fall in the wrong hands.

No. What I said is that I can understand why they wouldn't want to release it as interpreting the data is complex and lay persons interpreting the data can come to erroneous conclusions.

Thanks for once again misrepresenting my comments. You seem to be making a career out of that.

Laypersons can come to the wrong conculsions but I doubt it's laypersons that they are worried about .

Kabang on the dough.
And Swart + gsk + grappe + Tucker aren't laypersons. Why didnt they get full access?
And Kimmage is hardly a layperson. Why wasn't he allowed to join sky in2012.
Walsh wasn't a layperson either. But he turned into one. Suddenly wasn't good with numbers anymore.

 

[MatParker117]

Re: Re:

I STRONGLY request that ALL athletes be FULLY transparent with ALL of their data.

Maybe it will work if I say it like that.

You said something different in the podcast with Tucker last year.

Iirc u said it would be foolish to release all data because it could fall in the wrong hands.

No. What I said is that I can understand why they wouldn't want to release it as interpreting the data is complex and lay persons interpreting the data can come to erroneous conclusions.

Thanks for once again misrepresenting my comments. You seem to be making a career out of that.

Laypersons can come to the wrong conculsions but I doubt it's laypersons that they are worried about .

Kabang on the dough.
And Swart + gsk + grappe + Tucker aren't laypersons. Why didnt they get full access?
And Kimmage is hardly a layperson. Why wasn't he allowed to join sky in2012.
Walsh wasn't a layperson either. But he turned into one. Suddenly wasn't good with numbers anymore.

Apparently he rubbed a lot of the team up the wrong way in 2010.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re:

Erm, the relevance would have depended on what the measurement would have been.
Again you show a surprising lack of curiosity.
As a scientist you don't always know in advance what certain measurements are going to be good for. Max heart rate was a must have in the context of the ventoux file. Science doesn't happen in a vacuum you know.

You're saying quite a lot without saying anything.

I am always scientifically curious. None of my actions have been contrary.

There was a technical error that was not resolvable. No amount of scientific curiosity could overcome that.

However, you stated that we were somehow at fault for not discontinuing the testing and restarting the test after a rest interval. We were testing from 9am through to 5pm and there was no scope for retesting. The signal loss also happened in the later half of the test. We decided to continue and heart rate data is not a fundamental outcome of the test.

My question relates to your repeated comments which broadly seem to suggest that the loss of heart rate data is some sort of conspiracy. If so, what exactly were we covering up?

You need to give some insight or otherwise move on as you've flogged this horse for some time without any real merit.

This seems to be a common modus of yours. Cast aspersions without any real evidence or merit and hope everyone buys it. However, when interrogated your comments have little merit. In short, nothing but trolling.

 

[sniper]

To you everything is a conspiracy. It suggests you're not well acquainted with the history of the sport. As I said many times, I expect more from somebody working for an antidoping agency.

 

[Jeroen Swart]

Re:

To you everything is a conspiracy. It suggests you're not well acquainted with the history of the sport. As I said many times, I expect more from somebody working for an antidoping agency.

Actually I don't see any conspiracy. And since I'm the one purportedly involved in the conspiracy your comment is rather strange.

Once again, you say very little. I know it's not one of your strong points but try being a little clearer and specific.