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The fun begins - SCA now asking for money back...

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Merckx index said:
USADA has said several times that they may call LA as a witness in Bruyneel's arbitration. Of course he would be asked under oath if he ever doped, and other questions related to the other riders' testimony. How is he going to avoid that? This is one reason why I doubt Bruyneel will actually go through with arbitration, though thus far he's talking tough.

Armstrong cares little for Bruyneel's hearing.

SCA have got him buy the ball and are squeezing it tighter everyday.

He has to play a card. The "lying to the judge" call in the media is only going to turn the heat up on this.

The letter which arrived on Monday gave him 30 days to respond. Lets see where that takes us.

But I remain on my original point. This is very simple and SCA have it in the bag. Lance will pay.
 
Velodude said:
I am way, way behind. Is Johan appealing?

Well I don't find him appealing.
He might, but he probably has to go through some sort of trial/arbitration and be found guilty of something before he has anything to appeal about.

Just my 3rd grade understanding of how the law works, I could very well be wrong, but just like Mountainrman I will never admit it.:D
 
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Hugh Januss said:
Well I don't find him appealing.
He might, but he probably has to go through some sort of trial/arbitration and be found guilty of something before he has anything to appeal about.

Just my 3rd grade understanding of how the law works, I could very well be wrong, but just like Mountainrman I will never admit it.:D

I was tongue-in-cheek.

Mountainrman asserts that USADA have no jurisdiction over Bruyneel.

mountainrman wrote:
But even if USADA attempt to convene it in the US (and If I were Bruyneel, I would contest that - he is not even a US citizen, so has no contract directly or indirectly with USADA or US cycling)

Suggest he read UCI Anti-Doping Rules.

Rule 18 relating to non license holders that attracts anti-doping rules applicable to a licensed rider to that person.

Bruyneel was one of the triumvirate that enabled doping in US teams (USPS
and Discovery) and US riders (USPS contracted there must be at least 50% US riders) from 1999-2005.
 

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eyemgh said:
You are once again, only on a different thread, confusing apples and oranges. This is not a US legal matter. This is a sporting matter. Yes, issues that arise may result in spinoff legal matters. SCA seeking money back is one instance. This is not however US vs. LA. It is a matter of the USADA sanctioning LA for a well documented doping violation. Please, quit attempting to muddy the water. Your arguments are gaining NO traction here because everyone is savvy enough to see them as purely obfuscation.

Someone else - not me - commented on USADA declared wish to get LA on the stand in a Bruyneel arbitration hearing.

Since he will not come voluntarily, why should he - and cycling has no furher remedies to exact emanating from contractual power over him now he is banned, my comments were based on US law.

The real powers afforded a US arbitration hearing to subpoena which can be enforced in court on penalty of contempt ( with notable instances of jail for people who did not comply ) - do none of you realise that?

My comment is that even if They get LA to come , I think he has a valid basis to take the fifth and remain silent so it is pointless.

Please read the law, you make too many assumptions.

USADA process does not exist outside the law , and cannot act outside it as some seem to think. It is given civil legal authority by the presumed contract that exists between riders and their cycling federations, and must act within stated rules, the presumed basis of that civil contract , and US constitutional law or is challengeable first in arbitration which has legal teeth and powers, and beyond that in civil and constitutional courts if any abuse of powers or constitutional rights have been demonstrated to occur.


I think most of the others on this thread should also read sparks judgement, since they clearly do not appear to know what it contains or even the narrow scope within which it was asked to rule. It is a damning indictment of cycling justice, certainly not a tribute to it. Sparks doubted LA could ever get a fair hearing, within that context but was powerless to right a wrong as yet undetermined.

There are three aspects to it, the fact of the process, the conduct of the process, and the outcome of the process. Sparks was asked to rule whether the fact of the process caused immediate irreperable harm to constitutional rights, and concluded it did not. He was scathing about the conduct of it, (the charging letter he considered already violated rights, and demanded USADA remedy that) he doubted the outcome of it would or could be fair, but because and ONLY because Armstrong could appeal into CAS on matters of judgement or jurisdiction, and wrongs then remaining in outcome could be taken further back to his court and the legal system to remedy the fact of USADA process he ruled could not give irreperable harm. I am certain if Tygart had pulled the stunt of putting the evidence in public domain before arbitration as he has with Bruyneel, were he a US citizen Sparks woukd have halted it on the basis of immediate harm

I dislike Bruyneel with a passion and what he represents. But the man has rights.

The one thing I have discovered since writing is CAS has a court in New York, which helps with getting an LA subpoena, but not necessarily with getting Bruyneel there.
 
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mountainrman said:
Someone else - not me - commented on USADA declared wish to get LA on the stand in a Bruyneel arbitration hearing.

Since he will not come voluntarily, why should he - and cycling has no furher remedies to exact emanating from contractual power over him now he is banned, my comments were based on US law.

The real powers afforded a US arbitration hearing to subpoena which can be enforced in court on penalty of contempt ( with notable instances of jail for people who did not comply ) - do none of you realise that?

My comment is that even if They get LA to come , I think he has a valid basis to take the fifth and remain silent so it is pointless.

Please read the law, you make too many assumptions.

USADA process does not exist outside the law , and cannot act outside it as some seem to think. It is given civil legal authority by the presumed contract that exists between riders and their cycling federations, and must act within stated rules, the presumed basis of that civil contract , and US constitutional law or is challengeable first in arbitration which has legal teeth and powers, and beyond that in civil and constitutional courts if any abuse of powers or constitutional rights have been demonstrated to occur.

I think most of the others on this thread should also read sparks judgement, since they clearly do not appear to know what it contains or even the narrow scope within which it was asked to rule. It is a damning indictment of cycling justice, certainly not a tribute to it. Sparks doubted LA could ever get a fair hearing, within that context but was powerless to right a wrong as yet undetermined.

There are three aspects to it, the fact of the process, the conduct of the process, and the outcome of the process. Sparks was asked to rule whether the fact of the process caused immediate irreperable harm to constitutional rights, and concluded it did not. He was scathing about the conduct of it, (the charging letter he considered already violated rights)he doubted the outcome of it would or could be fair, but ONLY because Armstrong could appeal into CAS on matters of judgement or jurisdiction, and wrongs then remaining in outcome could be taken further back to his court and the legal system to remedy the fact of USADA process he ruled could not give irreperable harm. I am certain if Tygart had pulled the stunt of puttingbthe evidence in oublic domain as he has with Bruyneel, Sparks woukd have halted it on the basis of immediate harm


The one thing I have discoveres since writing is CAS has a court in New York, which helps with getting an LA subpoena, but not necessarily with getting Bruyneel there.

For a guy who lives in "North UK" with proven zero understanding of UK legal jurisdiction and law you post as if you have deep familiarity with the US counterpart.
 

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Velodude said:
For a guy who lives in "North UK" with proven zero understanding of UK legal jurisdiction and law you post as if you have deep familiarity with the US counterpart.

One classic straw man false argument, is to claim that the nature of a person who makes a statement, affects the validity or otherwise of the statement.This forum seems to specialize in doing what they most criticise Armstrong for - playing the man not the ball. I would prefer if people kept to the arguments. As for knowledge of UK law you are very wrong - even more wrong to state it without justification - I was director responsible for contracts on the board of a plc - a public contracting company for a period of years, so I spent a lot of time involved in legal matters, including the powers and benefits and lmitations of arbitrated settlements, which is why I have an interest in law.

Challenge it if you disagree. What would happen in your view - if the Arbitration court tried to subpoena armstrong? and what powers do YOU think it has?

As for what Sparks said, it is there in black and white on the web, and it is evident that many Tygart lovers/ Armstrong haters have not read it by what they say. I have read it word for word several times, and also learned commentaries on it.

SCA lawyers have confirmed what I stated about SOL for perjury in the US. I have stated that no such SOL limitation protection exists in the UK for the Sunday times settlement, so criminal repurcussions are at least possible here, but the question is whether and what sworn testimony under penalty of perjury, that Armstrong gave prior to the settlement. Only time will tell. Challenge that if you disagree, but this time with facts not smear.

By the way - all the known instances of newspapers exacting revenge on those who swear false statements in Libel hearings (ie Archer, and Aitken) were as I said - perjury and perverting the course of justice: not fraud. If someone can point at a fraud case arising from false declaration a libel settlement, ( which seeming a red herring that keeps getting raised, when I mention perjury) I am listening. SO far nothing I have said has been contested in any meaningful way.

The one correction I did make myself, is CAS has four courts not just in Lausanne, including a court in new york. Remarkable what you discover if you dig.

The forum is here so all can learn something.
 
truth

looking at this from a different angle..............can lance afford to contest?

not in terms of billable hours but in the court of public opinion

better to repay $'s rather than be seen to be contesting when public opinion of him is near rock bottom

of course avoiding further scrutiny of his deceipts

i recall those threads years ago before the usada case where u tube videos

were analysed..............lance's body language suggesting that deceipt
 
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mountainrman said:
One classic straw man false argument, is to claim that the nature of a person who makes a statement, affects the validity or otherwise of the statement.This forum seems to specialize in doing what they most criticise Armstrong for - playing the man not the ball. I would prefer if people kept to the arguments. As for knowledge of UK law you are very wrong - even more wrong to state it without justification - I was director responsible for contracts on the board of a plc - a public contracting company for a period of years, so I spent a lot of time involved in legal matters, including the powers and benefits and lmitations of arbitrated settlements, which is why I have an interest in law.

Challenge it if you disagree. What would happen in your view - if the Arbitration court tried to subpoena armstrong? and what powers do YOU think it has?

As for what Sparks said, it is there in black and white on the web, and it is evident that many Tygart lovers/ Armstrong haters have not read it by what they say. I have read it word for word several times, and also learned commentaries on it.

SCA lawyers have confirmed what I stated about SOL for perjury in the US. I have stated that no such SOL limitation protection exists in the UK for the Sunday times settlement, so criminal repurcussions are at least possible here, but the question is whether and what sworn testimony under penalty of perjury, that Armstrong gave prior to the settlement. Only time will tell. Challenge that if you disagree, but this time with facts not smear.

By the way - all the known instances of newspapers exacting revenge on those who swear false statements in Libel hearings (ie Archer, and Aitken) were as I said - perjury and perverting the course of justice: not fraud. If someone can point at a fraud case arising from false declaration a libel settlement, ( which seeming a red herring that keeps getting raised, when I mention perjury) I am listening. SO far nothing I have said has been contested in any meaningful way.

The one correction I did make myself, is CAS has four courts not just in Lausanne, including a court in new york. Remarkable what you discover if you dig.

The forum is here so all can learn something.

The interesting thing here is your familiarity with arbitration rules. One so versed in such things surely understands the protections provided in the process, yet you continue to use the Armstrong apologist "kangaroo court" line. So I will ask again, nicely, qualify that statement or STFU.
 
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mountainrman said:
No need to quote you again

You are the most devious, insipid kind of convert. You are professing disdain for Armstrong and Bruyneel. You time and again try to hold out your anti-doping street cred. Then you use the "kangaroo court" argument. It has become abundantly clear that you are merely a fanboy looking for an out. You were on your chair screaming at the top of your lungs every year Armstrong rode the tour. In those years, and the years he didn't ride, you were the defender. Somewhere, on some forum, you were pushing the fanboy line with vigor and vitriol. (maybe even here under another name, but I won't tell...) Sure you're possibly a new guy here, but I bet $1 million that your keyboard's "n" "e" "v" "r" "t" "s" "d" "p" "o" "i" "v" keys are shiny from use, practically glowing I bet. So please, spare us the charade. If there were some legal maneuver that would end all of this in Armstrong's favor, or some legal body who could come in and overrule what has happened, you'd be here defending that or them with all the gusto you defended Armstrong in the past. Quit pretending your posts and true beliefs are not transparent. It is the most insulting part of your shtick.

Go get on your Madone and go for a ride and spare us any further ruminations on this issue. Please.
 
wirral said:
When is Lance's 30 days to respond up?

Some time back in 1999?

Respond to what?

From the Reasoned Decision:

"On June 12, 2012, USADA notified Mr. Armstrong, Johan Bruyneel, Dr. Pedro Celaya, Dr. Luis Garcia del Moral, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Mr. Jose “Pepe” Marti (collectively, the “Respondents”) via letter that USADA was “opening a formal action against each of you based on evidence that . . . you engaged in anti-doping rule violations . . . from 1998 to [the] present.”23

...

On June 28, 2012, USADA issued its charging letter setting forth USADA’s recommended sanctions and specifying that pursuant to the USADA Protocol the Respondents had until July 9, 2012, in which to notify USADA whether Respondents wished to challenge USADA’s proposed sanction by requesting a hearing before a panel of neutral arbitrators.25 Mr. Armstrong subsequently sought and received an extension to July 13, 2012, of his time to request a hearing before neutral arbitrators. That deadline was again voluntarily extended by USADA after Mr. Armstrong filed his federal lawsuit described below.

...

On August 23, 2012, three days after Judge Sparks dismissed his lawsuit, Armstrong published a statement indicating he would not elect to proceed to a hearing before the AAA under the USADA Protocol"


Case Closed.

Dave.
 

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ChewbaccaD said:
You are the most devious, insipid kind of convert. You are professing disdain for Armstrong and Bruyneel. You time and again try to hold out your anti-doping street cred. Then you use the "kangaroo court" argument. It has become abundantly clear that you are merely a fanboy looking for an out. You were on your chair screaming at the top of your lungs every year Armstrong rode the tour. In those years, and the years he didn't ride, you were the defender. Somewhere, on some forum, you were pushing the fanboy line with vigor and vitriol. (maybe even here under another name, but I won't tell...) Sure you're possibly a new guy here, but I bet $1 million that your keyboard's "n" "e" "v" "r" "t" "s" "d" "p" "o" "i" "v" keys are shiny from use, practically glowing I bet. So please, spare us the charade. If there were some legal maneuver that would end all of this in Armstrong's favor, or some legal body who could come in and overrule what has happened, you'd be here defending that or them with all the gusto you defended Armstrong in the past. Quit pretending your posts and true beliefs are not transparent. It is the most insulting part of your shtick.

Go get on your Madone and go for a ride and spare us any further ruminations on this issue. Please.

Chewbacca - play the ball not the man.

My disdain for the legal process in sport and the petty fiefdoms that fight for control of it, who rarely agree on even sport legal issues (take UCI arguments with USADA and UCI suing WADA!) has nothing to do with Armstrong at all!

I have said many many times.
Armstrong deserves a lifetime ban for intimidation. regardless of anything else.

As to where my dislike of sport injustice stems: It started a decade ago, and nothing has changed to make me reconsider.

I have said it in the past, for those who were reading. I knew a lot of top athletes and was involved in athletics event organisation. It was a real eye opener for me when someone I knew was (wrongly) accused of drug taking - a fact later admitted ( in small print of course) years after.
Yet the process destroyed her, bankrupted her, destroyed her career , never to start again, blacklisted her husband from sports promotion, fundamentally the war was conducted in media by "selective" statements from federation to press. The arcane nature of the bodies involved and the impossibility of determining even jurisdiction cost hundreds of thousands to even fight. And there was no justice for her in the end. A half hearted apology a decade later is simply not good enough
IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN KEPT CONFIDENTIAL - not allowed the federation to assassinate in public before the end of the last appeal. UCI rules say as much for cycling.

Nothing has changed in as far as I can see.

It was shameful what they did to Rasmussen, and there was no legal underpinning for it. He should not have had to do two sets of tests just because of being a Dane, and two of his "warnings" were for the same period one UCI, one Danish - so was declared guilty twice for the same offence! - I forget the latin phrase for that principle.. The first missed test was clearly not lawful issued as a recorded decision, without any opportunity for explanation. They destroyed him in media first.
And have blacklisted him ever since.

It was disgraceful how Contador was judged initially lightly because of spanish involvement, and the fact that Ashenden could not even present evidence of plasticisers in his blood - demonstrating transfusions -speaks volumes for the injustice..

The justice system does not work, and I have been saying that for the last ten years.

So this is the latest in a long line.
Tygart should not have put any of the evidence in public domain until all actions were completed and done. He has clearly prejudiced Bruyneel.
Worse still the reasoned decision is not reasoned at all. Equity demands that the evidence is examined and tested, not just presented. In which case how did the Hincapie flat clearance ever even make it into the document? you are a student of law. You know it has no justification to be there!

The only difference between career dopers Leipheimer, Hincapie, and Hamiltion is that the first two were better at cheating, so they get away with less sanction. Is that what we really want to reward?

The right of USADA to pursue lance does not excuse bad practise.

The charging letter was a sham, and for Sparks to remark he "doubted Lance could get a fair hearing" was a damning indictment of the rest. The argument with USADA and UCI inevitable because of the lack of clarity.

In the case of Bruyneel they have clearly prejudiced a fair hearing, and as for the "reasoned decision" - the difference between a prosecution stitch up and a reasoned decision is testing and balancing not in evidence at all in that document.

And so on.

My campaign is that one of the things that needs to be changed for cycling to have any credibililty left is to create a body independent of UCI and the federations that takes evidence from all sources, and determines sanction after hearing any defence case. Leaving Tygart to prosecute, and CAS as appeal. That way we may begin to see justice. It would certainly have helped the athlete I knew, and Rasmussen, although it is too late for both of those.
THAT IS WHAT I AM CAMPAIGNING FOR - A justice system independent of all these private fiefdoms - so the danes can no longer stitch up rasmussen, and the spanish cannot featherbed contador.



And that is all.
I am not an Armstrong apologist. Lifetime ban for intimidation is justifiable.
But equity is involved too.
If Riis still has a TdF title despite admitting doping, Lance should keep his too.
Both or neither. Cancelling one and not the other is clearly injustice.

In Bruyneels case however - as Jaksche points out - all of the (six) teams he was involved with had doping programs, so will it help the sport to scapegoat just Briyneel? Jaskche does not think so - he has warned against assuming it is a one team problem very recently. That is what UCI has always done. Spit out a scapegoat once in a while, then say "the rest are clean" HAH!

And that document should not be in the public domain until Bruyneels case is completed.
 
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mountainrman said:
Chewbacca - play the ball not the man.

My disdain for the legal process in sport and the petty fiefdoms that fight for control of it, who rarely agree on even sport legal issues (take UCI arguments with USADA and UCI suing WADA!) has nothing to do with Armstrong at all!

I have said many many times.
Armstrong deserves a lifetime ban for intimidation. regardless of anything else.

As to where my dislike of sport injustice stems:

I have said it in the past, for those who were reading. I knew a lot of top athletes and was involved in athletics event organisation. It was a real eye opener for me when someone I knew was (wrongly) accused of drug taking - a fact later admitted ( in small print of course) years after.
Yet the process destroyed her, bankrupted her, destroyed her career , never to start again, blacklisted her husband from sports promotion, fundamentally the war was conducted in media by "selective" statements to press. The arcane nature of the bodies involved and the impossibility of determining even jurisdiction cost hundreds of thousands to even fight. And there was no justice for her.

Nothing has changed in as far as I can see.

It was shameful what they did to Rasmussen, and there was no legal underpinning for it. He should not have had to do two sets of tests just because of being a Dane, and two of his "warnings" were for the same period one UCI, one Danish - so was declared guilty twice for the same offence! - I forget the latin phrase for that principle.. The first missed test was clearly not lawful issued as a recorded decision, without any opportunity for explanation. They destroyed him in media first.
And have blacklisted him ever since.

It was disgraceful how Contador was judged initially lightly because of spanish involvement, and the fact that Ashenden could not even present evidence of plasticisers in his blood - demonstrating transfusions -speaks volumes for the injustice..

The justice system does not work, and I have been saying that for the last ten years.

So this is the latest in a long line.
Tygart should not have put any of the evidence in public domain until all actions were completed and done. He has clearly prejudiced Bruyneel.
Worse still the reasoned decision is not reasoned at all. Equity demands that the evidence is examined and tested, not just presented. In which case how did the Hincapie flat clearance ever even make it into the document? you are a student of law. You know it has no justification to be there!

The only difference between career dopers Leipheimer, Hincapie, and Hamiltion is that the first two were better at cheating, so they get away with less sanction. Is that what we really want to reward?

The right of USADA to pursue lance does not excuse bad practise.

The charging letter was a sham, and for Sparks to remark he "doubted Lance could get a fair hearing" was a damning indictment of the rest.

In the case of Bruyneel they have clearly prejudiced a fair hearing, and as for the "reasoned decision" - the difference

And so on.

My campaign is that one of the things that needs to be changed for cycling to have any credibililty left is to create a body independent of UCI and the federations that takes evidence from all sources, and determines sanction after hearing any defence case. Leaving Tygart to prosecute, and CAS as appeal. That way we may begin to see justice. It would certainly have helped the athlete I knew, and Rasmussen, although it is too late for both of those.

And that is all.
I am not an Armstrong apologist. Lifetime ban for intimidation is justifiable.

In Bruyneels case however - as Jaksche points out - all of the (six) teams he was involved with had doping programs, so will it help the sport to scapegoat just Briyneel? Jaskche does not think so - he has warned against assuming it is a one team problem very recently. That is what UCI has always done. Spit out a scapegoat once in a while, then say "the rest are clean"

HAH!

And that document should not be in the public domain until Bruyneels case is completed.

Thirdly, I am not a favor of the ever growing move toward arbitration, but it is what it is, right. I also am quite sure that the AAA Supplemental Rules used for USADA hearings is quite robust in protections for the athlete. The idea that this is a Christian/Lion contest is bullsh!t. Which brings me to my final point:

Your characterization of things like the charging letter and other USADA actions is PURE opinion. I find ZERO proof of this "kangaroo court" in your points, which moves me to my continuing point: You have an agenda operating, at least in part, that you think you can hide with proclamations about "lifetime bans." Sorry Charlie, but few to any buy it.
 

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ChewbaccaD said:
Thirdly, I am not a favor of the ever growing move toward arbitration, but it is what it is, right. I also am quite sure that the AAA Supplemental Rules used for USADA hearings is quite robust in protections for the athlete. The idea that this is a Christian/Lion contest is bullsh!t. Which brings me to my final point:

Your characterization of things like the charging letter and other USADA actions is PURE opinion. I find ZERO proof of this "kangaroo court" in your points, which moves me to my continuing point: You have an agenda operating, at least in part, that you think you can hide with proclamations about "lifetime bans." Sorry Charlie, but few to any buy it.

Chewbacca

Return the issue I feel strongly about which has nothing to do with Armstrong at all.

The danes should not be able to stitch up Rasmussen.
The spanish should not be able to featherbed Contador.
The americans should not be sanctioning a belgian!
Sanctions should be based on how long you doped! not on how long you got away with cheating.

None of them should say anything until the entire process is exhausted through appeals. Suspension yes. Case details confidential until verdict confirmed or modified on appeal.
And all of that to happen FAST, not the outrageous time it took for CAS to consider contador.

To achieve the above, the sanctioning body must lie outside the national bodies - accepting evidence from them, and the defence case from the athlete given sight of the evidence, and then judging impartially regardless of who you are or where you come from. Tygarts argument on SOL was from US law! That should not be so. SOL should be the same for all.

That body cannot Be UCI because of clear conflict of interests with sport promotion, not wanting to present "bad news" they have proved it time and again they are not up to it.

It needs to be separate from all of them,
Then CAS can do what it should do which is allow appeals.

What part of that do you disagree with?
 
mountainrman said:
To achieve the above, the sanctioning body must lie outside the national bodies - accepting evidence from them, and the defence case from the athlete given sight of the evidence, and then judging impartially regardless of who you are or where you come from. Tygarts argument on SOL was from US law! That should not be so. SOL should be the same for all.

That body cannot Be UCI because of clear conflict of interests with sport promotion, not wanting to present "bad news" they have proved it time and again they are not up to it.

It needs to be separate from all of them,
Then CAS can do what it should do which is allow appeals.

What part of that do you disagree with?

If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

Meaning, you are arguing for a supra-national enforcement organization which cannot exist. Every country is not going to just accept eliminating their sovereignty for sport. Let it go. It's not going to happen.

Contador's doping positive was processed under Spanish rules that in theory comply with WADA/UCI rules regarding doping enforcement. The same is true for every other caught athlete.

Every international sports federation is an assembly of national sports federations enact some international standard based on the rules in that coutry. It's the reason the IOC has a federation in particpating countries. It's the reason supra-national corporations have national offices. As much as they may want, countries will not give up their ability to make and enforce law.
 

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ChewbaccaD said:
I find ZERO proof of this "kangaroo court"
Look it up in a dictionary would be a good place for you to start!

First - recognise that "Kangaroo court" is a non derogatory expression actually used and referring to informal sport decision processes. So on that basis the definition is spot on.

Second - outside the purview of sport, it means a process without normal rules of justice. Normal rules of justice involve a prosecution, a defence and an independent party either judge panel or jury determining guilt from the arguments also interpreting any legal or rule based underpinning needed.

Clearly it IS therefore a kangaroo court by the accepted definition. The in Tygarts Law, the judge and prosecutor are the same, and judgement and sentence are passed before defence is even heard. With only right of appeal after sentence.So it certainly does not follow normal and equitable rules of justice.

Finally for as long as nobody can decide whether WADA SOL should be breachable by US law on SOL, or WADA rules apply regardless, the legal underpinning referenced above is at best a mess on which USADA and UCI clearly do not agree..

So certainly on balance of probablilty based on the "reasoned decision" above, Tygarts law is a kangaroo court, there rests my case "your honour"

But I have long argued , way before Armstrong met his come uppance, that there should be a sanctioning body that operates outside the country federations to stop the Danes abusing Rasmussen for example. It should also be outside the reach of UCI to manipulate the outcome (because I think pretty much the same of UCI as Tygart does!) . And that and other crass decisions like Contador (not Armstrong apologist) is my reason for arguing this.

And an athlete I once knew who was destroyed by similar kangaroo coruts in athletics. Plus ca change...
 

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DirtyWorks said:
If wishes were horses, then beggars would ride.

Meaning, you are arguing for a supra-national enforcement organization which cannot exist. Every country is not going to just accept eliminating their sovereignty for sport. Let it go. It's not going to happen.

That is the reason every international sports federation is an assembly of national sports federations enact some international standard based on the rules in that coutry. It's the reason the IOC has a federation in particpating countries. It's the reason supra-national corporations have national offices. As much as they may want, countries will not give up their ability to make and enforce law.

I agree entirely. It is also the reason that UCI + Federations, IOC+ National Committees, IAAF + Local federations, FIFA + federations (the list goes on) are not doing the job they should be for their sport. The entire lot of them are run as private fiefdoms for primarily selfish and self serving motives, nothing to do with the athletes they serve..

Until then we will see more acquitted contadors, "whitewashed" armstrongs, stitched up rasmussens, bruyneels tried by media before hearing (and so on..) and anyone who sheds light on the whole dirty business getting blacklisted for speaking out.
And ever more scandals...Tygart and I actually agree on UCI!

I can dream... the time it might be possible to change is now when UCI is weakest, if the riders and sponsors club together to dictate how it should be instead.

Is it getting better? Not convinced at all. That WADA have tried to gag Michael Ashenden, source of bothinformation on the 99 EPO positives, and Contador blood tests, so now he is no longer involved in passports or as an expert witness. Cycling has done what it always done. Hidden all its dirty secrets, and is busy gagging those who speak out. SO now we would not know one of the key things that blew Armstrong out of the water. Without that smoking gun, would we have caughht him at all? That is not "better" in my book.
 

Dr. Maserati

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mountainrman said:
I agree entirely. It is also the reason that UCI + Federations, IOC+ National Committees, IAAF + Local federations, FIFA + federations (the list goes on) are not doing the job they should be for their sport. The entire lot of them are run as private fiefdoms for primarily selfish and self serving motives, nothing to do with the athletes they serve..

Until then we will see more acquitted contadors, "whitewashed" armstrongs, stitched up rasmussens, bruyneels tried by media before hearing (and so on..)
And ever more scandals...Tygart and I actually agree on UCI!

I can dream... the time it might be possible to change is now when UCI is weakest, if the riders and sponsors club together to dictate how it should be instead.

Is it getting better? Not convinced at all. That WADA have tried to gag Michael Ashenden, source of bothinformation on the 99 EPO positives, and Contador blood tests, so now he is no longer involved in passports or as an expert witness. Cycling has done what it always done. Hidden all its dirty secrets, and is busy gagging those who speak out. SO now we would not know one of the key things that blew Armstrong out of the water. That is not "better"

UCI were the one's to attempt to gag Ashenden, not WADA.

Just some other observations from your recent data dumps:
USADA can indeed sanction Bruyneel - CONI did just that with Valverde.
Armstrong was banned for life because he coerced, aided and abated doping.
 
Dr. Maserati said:
UCI were the one's to attempt to gag Ashenden, not WADA.

Just some other observations from your recent data dumps:
USADA can indeed sanction Bruyneel - CONI did just that with Valverde.
Armstrong was banned for life because he coerced, aided and abated doping.

Armstrong didn't abate doping! :D
 
mountainrman said:
I can dream... the time it might be possible to change is now when UCI is weakest, if the riders and sponsors club together to dictate how it should be instead.

You are entirely missing a couple of vital points here.
1. The IOC is the headwaters for whatever happens at the UCI. The UCI's actions are about average for an IOC recognized sports federation.

2. The UCI is pretty weak anyway. Hein gets to run it almost any way he likes in exchange for ASO having a steady supply of talent for their cycling events. ASO/RCS/etc don't want the UCI's job and I don't blame them one bit.

Lots of competitive cycling events are run without UCI sanctioning. They need dope testing, but not the UCI/local UCI federation. No one "wants" the UCI. They need it to make money at their events though...
 

mountainrman

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Dr. Maserati said:
UCI were the one's to attempt to gag Ashenden, not WADA.

Just some other observations from your recent data dumps:
USADA can indeed sanction Bruyneel - CONI did just that with Valverde.
Armstrong was banned for life because he coerced, aided and abated doping.

True on Ashenden, but the point I made is valid. Without access to data, he is blind.

On Bruyneel I am questioning not whether they can , but whether they shuould - I think there should be a single independent sanctioning body, with country federations acting as prosecutors only. For reasons stated many times above.

On Armstrong, I have said it many times.I think he should be sanctioned for life for the intimidation of others who spoke out..

I am less convinced about the "coercion, aiding, abetting" alone resulting in life time ban, since as Jaksche said, all the teams he was involved with (six) were doing same or similar things. Most of the riders were lending each other EPO from time to time, as in evidence given, o it is harder to find clear blue water between any of them. A number of them were doping before and after USPS so cannot state Armstrong was the cause . We only have Hincapies word that he quit in 2006, he certainly considered doping, he said so.. So the number eg Zabriskie - of those told to dope or quit as clean riders till they met Armstrong, were seemingly few and far between, and I suspect that was par for the course for all teams.. It was more an accepted culture.. Even the scale of it is not entirely clear because a number of riders have come forward saying they were unaware of it, so it was not as team wide as Tygart appears to state. I suspect Tygart new of riders who said they were unaware, so his presentation of information is certainly not even handed.

The problem with Tygarts presentation of it, is the focus to much on one man one team. Jaksche gives warnings about why that is not a good thing.

I will say it again. Armstrong should be kicked out for life (in my mind for intimidation) So I am not an apologist for him. My problem with the apparent lack of justice in cycling started long before this.
 
mountainrman said:
Look it up in a dictionary would be a good place for you to start!





So certainly on balance of probablilty based on the "reasoned decision" above, Tygarts law is a kangaroo court, there rests my case "your honour"



And an athlete I once knew who was destroyed by similar kangaroo coruts in athletics. Plus ca change...
[Slang of U.S. origin.] An unfair, biased, or hasty judicial proceeding that ends in a harsh punishment; an unauthorized trial conducted by individuals who have taken the law into their own hands, such as those put on by vigilantes or prison inmates; a proceeding and its leaders who are considered sham, corrupt, and without regard for the law.

The concept of kangaroo court dates to the early nineteenth century. Scholars trace its origin to the historical practice of itinerant judges on the U.S. frontier. These roving judges were paid on the basis of how many trials they conducted, and in some instances their salary depended on the fines from the defendants they convicted. The term kangaroo court comes from the image of these judges hopping from place to place, guided less by concern for justice than by the desire to wrap up as many trials as the day allowed.
OK I think I understand the point you are trying to make now. It would be just like me arguing that the US should abolish it's trial by jury system because I knew a person who was wrongfully imprisoned even though they were innocent.
 
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There will never be enough resources to catch and prosecute everyone. No system of justice or regulation ever claims or is designed to operate in that manner. That said, there is an effort to focus on the worst of the worst.

Sure some folks drive over the speed limit. Some drive way over the speed limit. Some drive way over the speed limit every time they get in their car.
Around the globe, the one the regulators will pursue most aggressively is the last one. And that person will have to convince a court they didn't do it, not that others were speeding too and are not before the court.
 

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