The Hour

[Darryl Webster]

Boardman didn't just break the WR in 1996, he obliterated it. It must have been a 10 second turn around on his 1995 performance... a turnaround which you would almost say is beyond what doping could have done and could instead perhaps be explained by other factors.

It was Bobridge not Phinney who broke it this year Darryl!

Ah , so it was..my mistake Ferminal. Ive a crap memory!..a "senior" moment!

 

[andy1234]

4000m . Chris went from failing to qualify to world record in 12 months. Phinney got the record last season. I was mentored by Eddie, rode the last race he saw ( British Team Persuit Final) before he had a collapsed with a heart atack and died the folowing day. Im not aware Eddie said any such thing.
I genuinly would like to believe Chris was the real deal as Im sure most of us would. However...a little birdy whispered in my ear on day " micro dosing". And that little birdy was very close to the camp. Like I said we`l never know.

Firstly,your timeline on the pursuit record is wrong.
Secondly, it was Bobridge.

Im calling BS on the "microdosing" Darryl.
Name your source, or admit its BS.

 

[euanli]

Webster likes to drop in those little titbits about everyone in BC.

Apparently gene therapy is being used on Team GB.

 

[Darryl Webster]

Firstly,your timeline on the pursuit record is wrong.
Secondly, it was Bobridge.

Im calling BS on the "microdosing" Darryl.
Name your source, or admit its BS.

Hey Andy...theres no bloody way im naming my source and if you actualy read what I put ( including my admission of my error re the record) you`d read I that I sincerly dont want to believe Chris used and that we`l never know regardless. The source was ( and still is) far closer the camp than I or you will ever be...and he might be bull****ing. But hey, absalutly no one is above suspition. "Nice guys" dope to ya know.

 

[andy1234]

Hey Andy...theres no bloody way im naming my source and if you actualy read what I put ( including my admission of my error re the record) you`d read I that I sincerly dont want to believe Chris used and that we`l never know regardless. The source was ( and still is) far closer the camp than I or you will ever be...and he might be bull****ing. But hey, absalutly no one is above suspition. "Nice guys" dope to ya know.

Darryl, your credibilty just took a nosedive.

Someone like you, who has had accusations made about them in the past, should know better than to circulate hearsay.

Im happy for you to name your source in PM. You can even put it in code if you like....

 

[Le breton]

Plenty of studs have tried to do the Hour. Problem was they just could not turn the split times to even attempt it officially. Hinault tried several years, Fignon also---even going to South America, Lemond rented the Colorado Springs track for a couple of weeks, Armstrong and his droogies tested indoor at California, H.H. Orested went close in Mexico trials before fracturing his hand in a crash, G. Braun in Bolivia. ........

Hinault??? where did you read that? I certainly never did. Please reveal your source.
Fignon in south america? You must be mistaken, he intended to go to Mexico, North (or latin) America, not South. That was just before he had his knee problem which killed the project.

Braun in Bolivia, a little bit pathetic really. But then he was not as famous as Sosenka, was he?

 

[Big Doopie]

yeh, hinault thought the hour record was useless and pointless and never even thought of trying it.

armstrong only "came up" with the idea when his relationship with ferrari came under scrutiny. he said that is why he was consulting him. in the heat of the moment they said they were looking for a track. however, they never followed up with it. it was all pr to explain using ferrari. and bs. they gave up "looking for a track", one month after the tour when the press questions had gone away. much like the pr with catlin during his comeback. huge pr with no result all for the benefit of hiding the doping.

 

[Captain Serious]

This site has output estimates.
http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html

Merckx 485
Indurain 477
Rominger 468
Rominger 460
Moser 446
Boardman 445
Sosenka 430
Boardman 410
Boardman 400
Obree 400

 

[Captain Serious]

Merckx also had the disadvantage of riding with his elbows sticking out the whole ride. Sosenka said that one of the most painful things was keeping his wrists cocked inside the drops to help keep his arms in

 

[indurain666]

This site has output estimates.
http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook/sports_recordsHour.html

Merckx 485
Indurain 477
Rominger 468
Rominger 460
Moser 446
Boardman 445
Sosenka 430
Boardman 410
Boardman 400
Obree 400

Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but if they are right, it proves that Merckx's performance was exceptional.

I personally believe a lot these guys don't try cause they know they won't make it. The money part: if Leopard Trek or HTC Columbia could put one of their riders names in the hour record, I am pretty sure they would be a pretty happy sponsor. They could get some budget to do it.

Cancellara is bet TT guy at the moment, but I don't think he can sustain about 460 over 60 minutes on a standard road bike. Don't forget that these guys have been TTing with aerobars since their junior days. TTing on a road bike is a different story.

 

[Le breton]

Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but if they are right, it proves that Merckx's performance was exceptional...

.

Merckx's performance was exceptional, but not for Merckx.
If he had produced 485 watts in Mexico at 2230 meters a.s.l., he would have been able to produce 10-12% more at sea-level, i.e 540 watts.
Which for a 73 kg guy would mean 7.4 watts/kg!!!!!!!!!!!!!

He would have been able to climb Ventoux in about 51-52 minutes, almost 10 minutes faster than he ever actually did I guess!

 

[Le breton]

Not sure how accurate these numbers are, but if they are right, it proves that Merckx's performance was exceptional.

.

I couldn't resist calculating Merckx's power output using the numbers given in the aerodynamics column of the reference
http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook...cordsHour.html
i.e
.34 square meters
0.75 cd

For the air density at Mexico's altitude, assuming 20°C, one gets 310 watts against air resistance. (air density 0.94 g/cm^3)

Adding the low rolling resistance of a wooden track, maybe 20-30 watts (it would be 43 watts on asphalt) and making allowance for maybe 10 watts lost due to the curves and another 2% overall for transmission losses, I get a grand total of 347 watts!!!!
But I don't believe that figure either, it just shows that the reference given is self-contradictory.

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Hinault was National pursuit champs several times in his early career. There are, literally, 100+ velodromes in France. On several occasions, over a few years, he tested with good form, a stopwatch and those on his inner circle. Never was there an attempt or any press. After the exploits of Anquetil and Riviere, this was the ultimate for any froggie. Funny how he seldom raced outside of France for a few years also (excepting the Giro in the nadir of Italian racers).....hmmmm. He taught Lemond plenty. Greg biggest contribution to pro cycling is not the use of aerobars----but rather the elevation of pro star wages by a factor of 5-10x as America had the biggest consumer market in the world in those days. Say 'thank you' Lance
Hinault had heaps of elan....winning Worlds with a 49 x12 top gear, Barrachi Trophy win with Moser, winning the Tour with major injuries etc.

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Fignon did the same track investigation. Seeking to regain the scintillating form of his beginning pro years, he was always frustrated. Scouting South America (Columbia or Bolivia i believe) was the last desperate attempt to 'turn the time splits' at the end of one pro season. I was lucky to race with him at a pre '86 World race and many years later at his final victory in the '94 Ruta Mexico. He had Bugno riding as wingman on the Gatorade team----Fignon was a real campionissimo! Adieu, Larry.....

 

[UncleChainwhip]

H2O was World pursuit champion pro and amateur as well as a former Hour record holder. "Clarence" was plenty hungry after Doyle pipped him for the pursuit title and Moser took his sea level Hour. Like I said he was turning good times purportedly when he broke his hand in a track crash in Mexico. Reveal my sources? This is 30 years ago, come on, what do you want x-rays, camcorder? Just trying to fill in some gaps for you.......the guys that informed me are mostly dead!

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Gregor Braun had his fantasy as a longtime Italian pro in the era of Conconi. He was also a multiple pursuit champion who had to work for the Italian stars on his teams. Check any of his pictures, a real quarterhorse! He tried to grab the Blue Riband only to never have done anything but spend money and have a Bolivian vacation. That La Paz track at 4000m was too bumpy for an Hour attempt and the environment too extreme. C. Harnett had some sprint marks there that lasted 30 years against the best Russian, East Bloc and other track kings.....muy rapido, no?

 

[Le breton]

Gregor Braun had his fantasy as a longtime Italian pro in the era of Conconi. He was also a multiple pursuit champion who had to work for the Italian stars on his teams. Check any of his pictures, a real quarterhorse! He tried to grab the Blue Riband only to never have done anything but spend money and have a Bolivian vacation. That La Paz track at 4000m was too bumpy for an Hour attempt and the environment too extreme. C. Harnett had some sprint marks there that lasted 30 years against the best Russian, East Bloc and other track kings.....muy rapido, no?

Gregor Braun was German (as his name suggests).
Was not physiologist Di Prampero with him on that hour attempt?

In January 86 Braun did set up a 5km world mark on the La Paz track 5:44, beating Oersted by 1 s. more or less

The altitude of the La Paz velodrome is NOT 4000 meters, it is located in Alto Irpavi at an altitude of 3417 meters.

In his hour attempt Braun stopped after 73 laps (times 333.33m?) and about 29:30.

As far as I know, the world record for 1km, standing start, set by Arnaud Tournant in Alto Irpavi still holds (58.875 sec.). Chris Hoy approached it within a few milliseconds.

like many others Tournant used some special plastic type material smoother than the cement of the track.

What people, including top physiologists, don't seem to realize is how taxing long duration efforts can be above 3000 meters altitude. This can be appreciated in the seminal paper by Di Prampero in the Int. J: of Sports Medicine (1986) p.55-72
The energy cost of Human locomotion....
showing that the optimal altitude for cycling world records is around 3-4000 meters a.s.l. (fig 8, page 62).

Mentioning Moser 1984 world record he says :
"better performances could be expected at an even higher altitude".

But this is based on a certain variation of residual VO2 max (relative to sea-level) at various elevations. The curve, taken from Boutellier & al. (Effects of chronic hypoxia on maximal performance) may well be representative of VO2max variation with altitude, BUT I have never seen a curve showing the variation of the sustainable fraction of VO2 max over, say, 1 hour, as a function of altitude.

That study would probably require too much work. My own guess is that somebody able to sustain 90% of his VO2 max at sea-level will not sustain anywhere near 90% at 3417 meters.

Now, how bumpy is the track? I have been there but didn't ride a bike on it.
However this is clearly a highly relevant issue. A bumpy track can wipe out the energy gain linked with altitude.

 

[Le breton]

..........
Mentioning Moser 1984 world record he says :
"better performances could be expected at an even higher altitude".

But this is based on a certain variation of residual VO2 max (relative to sea-level) at various elevations. The curve, taken from Boutellier & al. (Effects of chronic hypoxia on maximal performance) may well be representative of VO2max variation with altitude, BUT I have never seen a curve showing the variation of the sustainable fraction of VO2 max over, say, 1 hour, as a function of altitude.

That study would probably require too much work. My own guess is that somebody able to sustain 90% of his VO2 max at sea-level will not sustain anywhere near 90% at 3417 meters.

......

When he is not studying cosmic rays with "PAMELA", physicist Wolfgang Menn cycles and maintains (I guess) his website.

He has a very readable page on this topic
http://www.wolfgang-menn.de/hourrec.htm

But does not address the question I just mentioned.

 

[acoggan]

The Chris Boardman who did 49.441 km was only producing 91% of the power produced by the 56.375 km superman position Chris Boardman (442 watts)Had he been producing 442 watts he would have done about 51.1 km.

Eddy Merckx in Mexico had the advantage of altitude, the disavantage of being outdoor and he ran a truly terrible hour : he started insanely fast, as if he had never done tests at that altitude. When you start a race at such an altitude you feel so good because the air resistance is so much lower. He obviously fell in that trap and ran into oxygen debt early on and of course had to struggle all the way to the finish. Hard to tell what distance he would have covered if he had paced properly, but most likely well above 50 km.

Other things about that Merckx hour , the ignorant people who coached him had him training at sea-level on oxygen-depleted air supposedly to simulate Mexico's altitude. Easy to criticize with hindsight but also hard to believe that in 72(?) everybody was that ignorant. He also did that hour record at the end of a very heavy racing season, not the best of circumstances.

I doubt it very much if Boardman's bike was as unaerodynamic as Merckx. I bet he had less spokes for one thing.

Anyway, if a 91% Boardman could do 49.441 km, there are a few racers out there who can top 50 km at sea-level

I appreciate the way you always provide facts that help place discussions such as this one in context. A couple of comments/corrections, though:

1) I believe that Merckx's fast start was intentional, i.e., he was out to break Ole Ritter's (?) 5 and 10 km records on his way to the hour (and succeeded in doing so); and

2) while "live high, train low" is the modern mantra when preparing for competition at/near sea level, when preparing for competition at altitude you want to train at altitude (or simulated altitude), as that induces hypoxia-specific adaptations that benefit performance under such conditions. (I used this approach to prepare for an ultimately-unsuccessful attempt on the US 50+ 40 km TT record...which really is a stupid record! )

 

[Le breton]

I appreciate .........though:

1) I believe that Merckx's ..........

2) while "live high, train low"

Thanks.

On No 1 : I had forgotten about that 5/10 km business. Still, it seemed stupid in my opinion to try for 5km and the hour on the same attempt.

On No 2 : I agree partially and I realized when I made that comment that such training was not totally worthless, I also learned yesterday while reading about Merckx 1972 that he prepared for the hour by breaking away from the pack in end of season road races to basically time-trial to the finish.

Other strange ideas : try to make the bike as light as possible (Merckx).
In the case of Rivière : use helium to inflate the tyres. You have to wonder how much the pressure was reduced by the end of the hour!

 

[Le breton]

.......
I was lucky to race with him at a pre '86 World race and many years later at his final victory in the '94 Ruta Mexico. ..

That was 93 Ruta Mexico.

Out of topic : how many seasons did you race as a pro?

It surprises me that a number of ex-pros contribute to this website.

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Never got into the pro thing.......top amateur for nearly twenty years though. American pro was just a label back in that period, all a person had to do was give Simes & Co a hundred bucks. Finally in the mid '90's the number of U.S. pros eclipsed 100, still most of them were posers. It was an embarrassment to have a title race with foreigners, at least we don't have to live with that any more. Hey, thanks for listening.....

 

[Captain Serious]

Has anyone talked about Moser's test runs in about 1994? Or have I got that all wrong? What was the story there? Couldn't get the right combo of epo and his refridgerated blood?

 

[UncleChainwhip]

Yeah, test runs....that's what the pros spin them as when they failed and are found out. This was 10 years on from his 1984 record setting. Basically great homage to Obree, using his position modified with even further support of a chest pad. Barely missed his old mark at age 45+ using the entire Italian entourage reprising their role in Mexico. Still admire 'Checco' for finally coming clean and admitting he was blood doped for those records.......the disk wheels and sub 1" diameter tubing was merely smoke and mirrors.

 

[indurain666]

I couldn't resist calculating Merckx's power output using the numbers given in the aerodynamics column of the reference
http://www.bikecult.com/bikecultbook...cordsHour.html
i.e
.34 square meters
0.75 cd

For the air density at Mexico's altitude, assuming 20°C, one gets 310 watts against air resistance. (air density 0.94 g/cm^3)

Adding the low rolling resistance of a wooden track, maybe 20-30 watts (it would be 43 watts on asphalt) and making allowance for maybe 10 watts lost due to the curves and another 2% overall for transmission losses, I get a grand total of 347 watts!!!!
But I don't believe that figure either, it just shows that the reference given is self-contradictory.

Nice calc, I thought Mexico's track was concrete?

It seems the numbers from that web page are a bit biased, still an impressive performance by Merckx.