The importance of crank length to the cyclist.

[CoachFergie]

Met a guy on Powercranks today. Triathlete. Said he'd been training on them for 5 yea rs. He was no faster on the bike but his running off the bike had improved because the spinning reduced the load on his quads.

The spinning? Couldn't anyone just use a lower gear.

Reduced quad load? Couldn't anyone use a more quad friendly bike set up?

 

[coapman]

Met a guy on Powercranks today. Triathlete. Said he'd been training on them for 5 yea rs. He was no faster on the bike but his running off the bike had improved because the spinning reduced the load on his quads.

How does a PC rider pedal during training when the objective is to improve bike time ?

 

[FrankDay]

Met a guy on Powercranks today. Triathlete. Said he'd been training on them for 5 yea rs. He was no faster on the bike but his running off the bike had improved because the spinning reduced the load on his quads.

Of course, we don't know anything about how good he was before or how he has trained on them other than he has used them and is reporting running improvement only (and, again, we don't know anything more). I might add, he has come up with an explanation as to explain his improvement but I would suggest there are other, more reasonable, explanations. But, of course, we don't know any specifics so it would seem we are all guessing.

How have you (or he) established this causal link?

How does any individual establish causal effect to any observation? They can't. All that can be done is say "I did this and saw this". It is called an anecdotal report.

The spinning? Couldn't anyone just use a lower gear.

Reduced quad load? Couldn't anyone use a more quad friendly bike set up?

Very few people report running improvement with regular bike training. It is why I doubt this has anything to do with "unloading the quads" or people would be reporting this by just changing riding style on regular bikes. The vast majority of PowerCrankers who also run report substantial (minute per mile) running improvement when they start training with PowerCranks (and, usually, starting within a couple of weeks). If the dichotomy is real then it needs to be explained. Experienced runners have told me they think this benefit comes about because the PC's encourage good running form but this benefit or explanation has yet to be proven.

This crank length thread is probably the wrong thread to be discussing this although it isn't clear where one might properly discuss running improvement on a cycling forum

 

[FrankDay]

How does a PC rider pedal during training when the objective is to improve bike time ?

This is the wrong thread to be discussing this and, I believe, it has already been discussed in the pedaling technique thread.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

How does any individual establish causal effect to any observation? They can't. All that can be done is say "I did this and saw this". It is called an anecdotal report.

It's more than just anecdotal. It's biased because the anecdote is woefully incomplete.

I'm OK with anecdotal reports, they have their place (and we rely on them at our peril), but people should at least provide all the other elements of the anecdote that are relevant.

You know, silly things like training history that would more than likely have a far greater influence on such outcomes than what cranks you are using.

 

[FrankDay]

It's more than just anecdotal. It's biased because the anecdote is woefully incomplete.

I'm OK with anecdotal reports, they have their place (and we rely on them at our peril), but people should at least provide all the other elements of the anecdote that are relevant.

You know, silly things like training history that would more than likely have a far greater influence on such outcomes than what cranks you are using.

I would agree that this anecdote is woefully incomplete as regards trying to draw any conclusions. Although, I am not so sure you are so "OK" with anecdotal reports when it relates to PowerCranks. I mean, have you ever heard of one you thought having any validity? Or, any of those anecdotal reports posted here related to crank length?

 

[Polyarmour]

How have you (or he) established this causal link?

I just repeated what he told me. It's anecdotal of course.
Sample size of one etc.
I just found it an interesting comment.
His running may have improved for other reasons. Who knows?
But his cycling hadn't improved at all. After 5 years.
Sorry if this was the wrong place to bring this up but I thought I had previously seen a lot of discussion about PC's on this thread.

 

[FrankDay]

I just repeated what he told me. It's anecdotal of course.… but I thought I had previously seen a lot of discussion about PC's on this thread.

Lots of users attribute benefits (be it cycling or running) to using the product. The problem is, of course, the naysayers (most of whom have zero experience with the product) just cannot believe that it is even possible that the reports are true or that these observers know what they are talking about. Thanks for participating. I appreciate the anecdote. Just another to add to a very long list.

 

[CoachFergie]

Lots of users attribute benefits (be it cycling or running) to using the product. The problem is, of course, the naysayers (most of whom have zero experience with the product) just cannot believe that it is even possible that the reports are true or that these observers know what they are talking about. Thanks for participating. I appreciate the anecdote. Just another to add to a very long list.

Do people need experience with cigarettes to know they have negative health consequences? Could they not save time and money by looking at the research?

A very short list by comparison to the list of winners and people who improve at riding who don't worry about crank length, use a normal crank and a natural pedalling style.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Forum Attrition Warfare at it's finest form here.

 

[BroDeal]

Surprise. Surprise. More fraudulent claims by Power Cranks.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin...view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

 

[FrankDay]

Surprise. Surprise. More fraudulent claims by Power Cranks.

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/cgi-bin...view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

LOL www.petejacobs.com/uncategorized/power-cranks-training-racing/

And, of course, this post in a forum: http://forums.transitions.org.au/index.php?showtopic=47691&st=50 scroll down to PeePee's post where you will find this:

The one person who has used my Powercranks most in the past 5 years is none other than a certain Pete Jacobs, who runs quite well now.

One might wonder what is really going on here. People train on the product for a substantial period they are PowerCrankers in my opinion. Fraudulent claims indeed. LOL

 

[BroDeal]

Let's let him put it in his own words:

pete jacobs þ@petejjacobs
I do not use Power Cranks despite what has been advertised by them. #nothappy

 

[FrankDay]

Let's let him put it in his own words:

pete jacobs þ@petejjacobs
I do not use Power Cranks despite what has been advertised by them. #nothappy

The fact that some companies that pay him big bucks to use their product have made him disavow "current use" of a product he used in the past (without needing to being paid anything) to improve his athletic performance says little about the respective value of the several non-competing products, wouldn't you say?

 

[BroDeal]

The fact that some companies that pay him big bucks to use their product have made him disavow "current use" of a product he used in the past (without needing to being paid anything) to improve his athletic performance says little about the respective value of the several non-competing products, wouldn't you say?

And I once used a crap jacket from Pearl Izumi. I would not expect PI to claim credit for my wins because years ago I tried their poorly designed clothing. It would be dishonest and slimy advertising.

Again, we should let Jacobs put it in his own words:

pete jacobs þ@petejjacobs
I do not use Power Cranks despite what has been advertised by them. #nothappy

 

[CoachFergie]

And I once used a crap jacket from Pearl Izumi. I would not expect PI to claim credit for my wins because years ago I tried their poorly designed clothing. It would be dishonest and slimy advertising.

Again, we should let Jacobs put it in his own words:

pete jacobs þ@petejjacobs
I do not use Power Cranks despite what has been advertised by them. #nothappy

Ha ha nice.

More evidence of how desperate Frank is.

What evidence do you have that Gimmickcranks lead to an improvement in performance for Pete?

 

[coapman]

Ha ha nice.

More evidence of how desperate Frank is.

What evidence do you have that Gimmickcranks lead to an improvement in performance for Pete?

Leaving cost aside, can you state one disadvantage that could arise from using Powercranks.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Leaving cost aside, can you state one disadvantage that could arise from using Powercranks.

Wasting valuable training time / detraining.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yes time.

Training in a non specific way to how you perform.

Weight of the product.

Aerodynamics of the product.

No scientific support for the product.

Noel, you want to check out Graeme Orbree's new book on training. Looks like he his stealing your pedalling technique and has a very good way of explaining the technique. Better than anything we have heard from you. Pity there is no scientific support for the method even though the means to evaluate it have been around for at least 30 years.

 

[acoggan]

Leaving cost aside, can you state one disadvantage that could arise from using Powercranks.

Possibly increased risk of an overuse injury.

 

[coapman]

Noel, you want to check out Graeme Orbree's new book on training. Looks like he his stealing your pedalling technique and has a very good way of explaining the technique. Better than anything we have heard from you. Pity there is no scientific support for the method even though the means to evaluate it have been around for at least 30 years.

If he has a better way of explaining it, how does his technique differ from the one you are using and where do the main advantages lie. You always believed technique does not matter.

 

[CoachFergie]

You always believed technique does not matter.

Ha ha most of my coaching is technique.

It's your technique that doesn't matter.

The techniques I coach have a biomechanical and physiological basis to them.

 

[coapman]

Ha ha most of my coaching is technique.

It's your technique that doesn't matter.

The techniques I coach have a biomechanical and physiological basis to them.

You never answer questions, instead you try to wriggle your way out with a vague reply. You say Obree explained it, how does it differ from natural pedaling.

 

[Joachim]

There is a 7.5mm difference between the cranks on my track bikes, and those on my race bikes.

I haven't noticed a huge difference, in all honesty. Probably would if I upped the length the same amount.

 

[CoachFergie]

You never answer questions, instead you try to wriggle your way out with a vague reply. You say Obree explained it, how does it differ from natural pedaling.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/The-Obree-Way-cyclists-ebook/dp/B0094382WC