The importance of crank length to the cyclist.

[Tapeworm]

Actually Skittles were British

 

[FrankDay]

Actually Skittles were British

Really! Considering the way the Brits dominate both track cycling and triathlon it seems this would suggest Skittles are clearly superior to gummie bears. No need for Fergie to wade in on this question.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yes, I am aware of all of that and I am not aware of anything in what you mentioned that goes beyond what has been already said. If I missed something I am sure you could point it out. What I asked was for you to point to specific work done by Martin or anyone else that goes to this specific discussion topic.

It all goes to the point that crank length is not a big deal.

This is not a discussion thread, it is a spam thread. What else would you call an original post that ends with a link to a marketing website.

But as previously mentioned Gimmickcranks are a solution in search of a problem.

If you want to advertise your product you should pay the forum owners like everyone else does.

Skittles??? FFS, Gummie Bears (or Jelly Babies as we call em in NZ) are clearly superior and recommended by two local Dieticians over gels. Choosing Skittles because of an association with UK and the BCF Track Team shows that you have much to learn about marketing and scientific process.

We had a discussion today over Gimmicks in sport...

-Strength training
-Supplements
-Special training regimes
-Training tools

When asked for my contribution and started with "well let me tell you about a guy named Frank..." But don't feel special Frank, I debate a wide variety of Snake Oil Salesmen on all of the above subjects on a daily basis.

 

[CoachFergie]

Actually Skittles were British

What about M&Ms? In NZ they are distributed by the same company.

 

[cromagnon]

Moving from scientific to anecdotal my general awareness on the subject people going to shorter cranks have reported

1) They did not get any SLOWER
2) Some claim less back pain (maybe shorter cranks leads to less pressure on lower back? Less rocking of hips?)
3) Quite a few think they can get a flatter more horizontal line from hips to shoulders in TT position, indeed the promise of a more aero position was the main reason for one guy going with shorter cranks

 

[CoachFergie]

Moving from scientific to anecdotal my general awareness on the subject people going to shorter cranks have reported

1) They did not get any SLOWER
2) Some claim less back pain (maybe shorter cranks leads to less pressure on lower back? Less rocking of hips?)
3) Quite a few think they can get a flatter more horizontal line from hips to shoulders in TT position, indeed the promise of a more aero position was the main reason for one guy going with shorter cranks

All nice but the thing about self report is that no one is going to shout out. "I dropped a grand on gimmick X or supplement Y or even Coach Z and went worse". You just lick your wounds and hopefully learn your lesson.

Speed isn't a good indication of improved performance. You could be going slower going from summer to winter but performing better.

No one should have any back pain if they are set up correctly.

Searching for aerodynamic improvements is one of the things Jim Martin suggested that no drop in power down to 145mm cranks may allow people to achieve. Having spent a lot of time in the wind tunnel there are other ways to achieve a flatter back.

 

[oldborn]

I have been thinking of starting a thread to explore whether skittles or gummie bears (or snickers vs milky way) make a better long ride energy source and see if Fergie would jump in and accuse me of starting it just to sell PowerCranks. (you may not be familiar with these but they are American candies)

And he jumped indeed

 

[FrankDay]

All nice but the thing about self report is that no one is going to shout out. "I dropped a grand on gimmick X or supplement Y or even Coach Z and went worse".

"no one"???? Really????

You just lick your wounds and hopefully learn your lesson.

Two scenarios:

1. Someone spends $1000 on a product that does nothing or makes them worse. Do they want to warn their friends or keep their experience quiet?

2. Someone spends $1000 on a product that actually gives them a competitive advantage. Do they want to tell their competition or try to keep their experience quiet from the competition?

 

[CoachFergie]

Scenarios...

1. Claim the British Cycling Federation and Australian Cycling Federation are using their product but can't even supply a name for who they are dealing with and when checked out with contacts in both organisations they knew nothing.

2. Claims of a 40% increase in performance but no valid or reliable data has ever been presented.

3. A Spanish chap whose claimed gains were based off a file that had clearly been manipulated.

4. A MIT grad whose claimed gains from a 60min roller test where higher than his peak 20min power from a hill climb. I guess they don't teach them at MIT to calibrate their equipment before doing any testing.

5. Claiming off season use of a product for a very short period of time having an effect on a cyclist in a race six months later.

6. Banned from several forums for creating spam threads.

"So Frank Day"!

 

[cromagnon]

Scenarios...

1. Claim the British Cycling Federation and Australian Cycling Federation are using their product but can't even supply a name for who they are dealing with and when checked out with contacts in both organisations they knew nothing.

2. Claims of a 40% increase in performance but no valid or reliable data has ever been presented.

3. A Spanish chap whose claimed gains were based off a file that had clearly been manipulated.

4. A MIT grad whose claimed gains from a 60min roller test where higher than his peak 20min power from a hill climb. I guess they don't teach them at MIT to calibrate their equipment before doing any testing.

5. Claiming off season use of a product for a very short period of time having an effect on a cyclist in a race six months later.

6. Banned from several forums for creating spam threads.

"So Frank Day"!

The perfect entrepreneur, then. Just needs the right backing.

 

[CoachFergie]

Have seen better marketing models than blatantly lying about a product and making unsubstantiated claims.

 

[cromagnon]

I thought marketing WAS lying. Oh but it's supposed to be subtle not blatant as you say. Touche in that case

 

[FrankDay]

1. Claim the British Cycling Federation and Australian Cycling Federation are using their product but can't even supply a name for who they are dealing with and when checked out with contacts in both organisations they knew nothing.

CSI Fergie. Let's see, checking with a couple of your contacts at these organizations who "knew nothing" is enough evidence to you to prove my lying that we have shipped units to these organizations at their request?

2. Claims of a 40% increase in performance but no valid or reliable data has ever been presented.

Well I have presented plenty of anecdotal evidence but I don't try to claim that such constitutes proof of that claim.

3. A Spanish chap whose claimed gains were based off a file that had clearly been manipulated.

Really! Joaquin Rodriguez was a spanish cyclist who wanted to test our claims. He paid for independent testing from a coach who works with the spanish cycling, federation. He tested at 6 and 13 months of exclusive use. Here are his test results he reported.
Pre PC 6mos 13mo
VO2max 4692 5609 5794
VO2max (ml/kg/min) 71.2 81.7 85.5
FTP 284 358 394
You might note that is a 38% percent improvement in "performance" as measured by power (FTP). He also set a personal best on a climb outside Madrid that he set many years earlier when he was young and racing more seriously. This became very controversial on slowtwitch and he came to be part of the discussion. He invited anyone to come ride a mountain outside of Madrid with him (a mountain where he had also set a personal best also). Months later someone showed up to ride with him and started a thread that said in essence "he was the real deal" because he simply rode away from him. The naysayers could not believe it, of course, and wanted to see the Power Tap file (the fact that he rode away from this guy suggested to him that he lied about making it all the way to the top). It was that file that was corrupted. It is not clear to me that his claimed gains came solely from this file, as you allude.

4. A MIT grad whose claimed gains from a 60min roller test where higher than his peak 20min power from a hill climb. I guess they don't teach them at MIT to calibrate their equipment before doing any testing.

LOL. The rider in question thinks you are an idiot.

5. Claiming off season use of a product for a very short period of time having an effect on a cyclist in a race six months later.

Huh?

6. Banned from several forums for creating spam threads.

News to me.

Hey, you forgot Phil Holman, a guy who didn't believe our claims and I challenged him to put them to the test in an open forum. In seven months of near exclusive use he increased his pursuit speed 2 mph and won a bronze medal at Track worlds. Or, our claiming that the last 3 Olympic Road Race champions have used the product. Or the guy who went from Cat2 to neoPro in 1 season. Or, Cadel Evans. Or, a multitude of other elite cyclists, triathletes, runners, and other sports teams.

Anyhow, thanks for keeping these threads alive and for the opportunity to post the truth. I look forward to seeing CSI Fergie on a TV near me soon.

 

[CoachFergie]

It was that file that was corrupted.

The file had been tampered with and clearly repeated sections.

LOL. The rider in question thinks you are an idiot.

I think an MIT Grad who doesn't know how to calibrate a power meter shouldn't be casting aspersions about others.

Hey, you forgot Phil Holman, a guy who didn't believe our claims and I challenged him to put them to the test in an open forum. In seven months of near exclusive use he increased his pursuit speed 2 mph and won a bronze medal at Track worlds.

Meaningless gains. Meaningless event. Masters Track Worlds is more about who has the money to attend than real performance. We see similar improvements, if not better over a track season in pursuit times in our monthly Omnium series for a variety of reasons.

Or, our claiming that the last 3 Olympic Road Race champions have used the product. Or the guy who went from Cat2 to neoPro in 1 season. Or, Cadel Evans. Or, a multitude of other elite cyclists, triathletes, runners, and other sports teams.

Correlation does not imply causation! Not that it stops you from creating these spam threads.

 

[FrankDay]

The file had been tampered with and clearly repeated sections.

Yes, but can CSI Fergie prove who did the "tampering"? I happen to have an untampered file in my possession (turns out it was still in his PT so could be downloaded again) but he was so ****ed at how he was treated by you folks he made me promise I wouldn't provide it to anyone else. He gave it to me and RChung to prove he wasn't lying.

I think an MIT Grad who doesn't know how to calibrate a power meter shouldn't be casting aspersions about others.

Well, he is an MIT graduate and he thinks you are an idiot. Whether you think he shouldn't be casting aspersions is inconsequential to him.

Meaningless gains. Meaningless event. Masters Track Worlds is more about who has the money to attend than real performance. We see similar improvements, if not better over a track season in pursuit times in our monthly Omnium series for a variety of reasons.

30 to 32 mph pursuit improvement in 7 months meaningless? 35 to 38 mph top end speed in 7 months meaningless? Bronze at worlds meaningless? Perhaps to you. Not to the athlete who achieved these improvements.

Correlation does not imply causation! Not that it stops you from creating these spam threads.

Actually, correlation can and frequently does imply causation. I think you will find (if you ever thought about anything) is correlation does not prove causation.

 

[CoachFergie]

Well, he is an MIT graduate and he thinks you are an idiot. Whether you think he shouldn't be casting aspersions is inconsequential to him.

An MIT grad who doesn't think that a 60min power from a roller test that is higher than his 20min power from an uphill time trial is odd.

30 to 32 mph pursuit improvement in 7 months meaningless? 35 to 38 mph top end speed in 7 months meaningless? Bronze at worlds meaningless? Perhaps to you. Not to the athlete who achieved these improvements.

Yes meaningless. We see those sort of improvements all the time.

Bronze medal at Masters Worlds where there is no entry criteria beyond having the money to attend. One of my guys won a Bronze medal at World Mountain Bike Champs last night and he had to be selected by his federation to attend.

 

[FrankDay]

An MIT grad who doesn't think that a 60min power from a roller test that is higher than his 20min power from an uphill time trial is odd.:rolleyes

Yes, he happens to think someone with your credentials who doesn't understand what he did an idiot. Your failure to try to even understand and continuing to misrepresent what he did sealed the deal.

 

[FrankDay]

Yes meaningless. We see those sort of improvements all the time.

Your thoughts here will certainly give some perspective to your other thoughts to those struggling to see such improvement. LOL.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yes, he happens to think someone with your credentials who doesn't understand what he did an idiot. Your failure to try to even understand and continuing to misrepresent what he did sealed the deal.

So a guy who can't perform the racing and training with a power meter equivalent of adding 2+2 thinks I'm an idiot

I can live with that

 

[FrankDay]

So a guy who can't perform the racing and training with a power meter equivalent of adding 2+2 thinks I'm an idiot

Well, he is an MIT grad and that is your interpretation of his abilities. So, yes.

 

[CoachFergie]

Your thoughts here will certainly give some perspective to your other thoughts to those struggling to see such improvement. LOL.

Over a 4 month season we see those levels of gains for a wide variety of reasons. Temperature, wind, experience, better pacing, positioning, aerodynamics, the fast wheels come out later in the season, focused training, peaking, major events coming up. If the majority of riders didn't improve 2-3mph over a season I would be very surprised.

Your suggestion that the only thing Phil Holman did was use Gimmickcranks when a huge variety of factors influence pursuit speed on an outdoor track is...

"So Frank Day"

 

[CoachFergie]

Well, he is an MIT grad and that is your interpretation of his abilities. So, yes.

Well considering you have advanced degrees and your claim to greatness is spamming the internet for a product that you have no evidence it does what you claim pretty much sums up what academic titles mean. It's what you do with those qualifications that count. Some people get degrees or pass exams because that is what they are good at.

If this chap is so put out let him come here and debate me.

 

[FrankDay]

If this chap is so put out let him come here and debate me.

I believe he has already done so with you on SlowTwitch. Otherwise, how is it you know about him and how is it he has come to this conclusion about you? Having done this before, why would he want to waste his time engaging you again?

 

[FrankDay]

Your suggestion that the only thing Phil Holman did was use Gimmickcranks when a huge variety of factors influence pursuit speed on an outdoor track is...

It is not my suggestion, it was the conclusion of Phil Holman. Phil was an experienced track cyclist and naysayer before he got on them similar to you. He couldn't believe such improvements as I suggested could be possible but he agreed to try them (using them exclusively as I required, except for his track workouts) on my dare and we would see what happened. He concluded "they worked for me." But, what would he know compared to you? (What is your experience with the product again?)

 

[CoachFergie]

I believe he has already done so with you on SlowTwitch. Otherwise, how is it you know about him and how is it he has come to this conclusion about you? Having done this before, why would he want to waste his time engaging you again?

It was on Cycling Forums and he had his **** handed to him there. I guess he assumes Alex Simmons or Andy Coggan have similar intellects as they pointed out the error in his ways as well.

Why? Well for the same reason I engage in "debate" (I use that term loosely when you are involved) with you Frank; it's fricking amusing