The importance of crank length to the cyclist.

[FrankDay]

Not going to lie, that is a rather silly claim to make.

Glad you are finally able to agree with me on something. Now this is from a talk given by Hunter Allen give to bike dealers at Interbike and taken off a slide labeled "How do I sell Power"

#2 on the list is clearly bogus but it has to be the main point of the slide since it intimates you need a PM to get better. But, not much can be said for any of the others on the list either, except for #5 for the nerds who ride.

#1. While more power usually means more speed, it doesn't necessarily mean that if the aerodynamics changed while learning how to develop more power. But, #1 is necessary to have because it sets up #2 (remember the goal of the slide is to inform dealers how to make the argument to sell power meters). But, since the end goal (according to the slide) is to go faster, why not just measure speed? (I know Fergie, weather conditions make it difficult but on a loop course ridden regularly it soon becomes obvious if one is better or not)

#3. There is zero evidence using a PM saves time or allows the rider to train more efficiently and effectively. In fact, the only study on the product shows no difference in outcome (since the goal is to ride faster). It might be true but so far the evidence in support is missing.

And #4 seems non-sensical. Do I really need a PM to "add meaning" to my "hard work" once becoming faster?

#5 is a fair reason, IMHO, for some people to get a PM.

However, that all having been said, despite my reservations, I am sure those arguments work for the stated purpose of selling power meters, since a lot of you here seem to have bought into them.

 

[oldborn]

Epic slide.
#5
Powerocide

 

[FrankDay]

Epic slide.
#5
Powerocide

As I think about this some more I am not sure how I see a PM saving the athlete any time because now time must be added to the training schedule to download and analyze the data. Admittedly, some might find that fun but I don't see it saving the athlete any time.

 

[CoachFergie]

Would have loved to see Hunter Allen give the same presentation at ACSM. That slide undoes a lot of the good work scientists and coaches by demoting a power meter to just another method of chasing financial margins.

Saw this video yesterday if people are looking to "sell" sport science.

Ronaldo Sport Sci

There is a series of 4 videos breaking down his amazing skill, technique, mental capacity and physical ability. As you watch him weave through the slalom in slow motion they analyse the forces going through the knee joint. This can be worked out by hand or manually entered into software.

Cycling is still the only sport where one can assess the work performed in training and racing obtaining data points as often as .1 sec.

Bradley Wiggins used a power meter to pace his effort at the World Champs. Not to make him perform better but to make sure he didn't go out too hard. The science in sports chaps are running a video session on pacing in sport and claim in endurance events there is "always" an endspurt. They use the 5000m and 10000m running races as evidence of this.

This ignores the fact that both of these events are races not time trials and tactics come into play just the same as a road race. One of the benefits of the power meter is that it helps people to calibrate their effort on the bike. For me it helped me fine tune my time trial pace to a point where I could not increase the power towards the end, even the final 200m with nothing to lose. We see the same in pursuits when people hit their pursuit pace correctly.

In a self performed time trial we get one data point. With a power meter we get thousands. Time gives us no indication if performance has actually improved. Weather creates a huge confounding variable. Even on an indoor track a few degree's alter times significantly just the same as pacing. I watched Alison Shanks in her IP qualifying ride at Nationals go out too quick and ride 3:33 and then in the final her lap times were all 17.0 (hand timed) and she went 3:30 (it was also warmer at the track in the evening).

During her ride she does have a SRM on but the head unit is under her saddle. Her coach is on the sidelines yelling lap times and he takes a step forward for every tenth of a second she is up on schedule or a step back if down. In the final where things change from a time trial (to qualify) to a race he takes a step to the side away from her every tenth of a second she is up on her opponent and a towards her if down.

While I think this is a little too complex the point is she is getting regular objective feedback. Bradley Wiggins was getting regular objective feedback at Worlds beyond the intermediate time splits and he stated he didn't trust the person in the team car because in past events this year they were saying what they thought he wanted to hear.

The same concept would apply to testing a product. The results of a time trial are not very object even because of the changing nature of the weather. A power meter tells if the product allows you to perform less work for a given speed or more speed at a given power.

As for that slide: kool-aid anyone? It's why I don't go to bike shows.

 

[CoachFergie]

As I think about this some more I am not sure how I see a PM saving the athlete any time because now time must be added to the training schedule to download and analyze the data. Admittedly, some might find that fun but I don't see it saving the athlete any time.

You need to watch the time pile on in a time trial or individual pursuit if a rider goes out too fast. In the U17 2000m pursuit at Nationals one rider went through the first 1000m 4 seconds ahead of my rider and a mere 1000m later was a whopping 16sec behind.

Not a saying that only a power meter can be used to teach pacing but in terms of feedback the data recorded every second verses the data recorded every lap.

 

[oldborn]

As I think about this some more I am not sure how I see a PM saving the athlete any time because now time must be added to the training schedule to download and analyze the data. Admittedly, some might find that fun but I don't see it saving the athlete any time.

But it is fun to download
Yes, I am not sure which rider (Wiggins, Cancelara or Martin etc) had trouble to set PM at ITT start yesterday, he was all over that screen. If Wiggins can not pace himself without PM, well this is really interesting. Martin can.
All we can see riders stops PM at hills finish or ITT, those are only moments where they are really interesting in numbers IMHO.

 

[oldborn]

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=15379

I am not for it but interesting thread

 

[FrankDay]

You need to watch the time pile on in a time trial or individual pursuit if a rider goes out too fast. In the U17 2000m pursuit at Nationals one rider went through the first 1000m 4 seconds ahead of my rider and a mere 1000m later was a whopping 16sec behind.

Not a saying that only a power meter can be used to teach pacing but in terms of feedback the data recorded every second verses the data recorded every lap.

Fergie, we all understand the arguments. And, even I would admit that a PM SHOULD allow the athlete and coach to get better results. However many pros who have used a PM in the past have abandoned it. And, many current World Champs do not use one. And, there simply is no scientific data to support the conclusion that the PM does anything to enhance performance for users, on average.

Anyhow, that slide was prepared by a PM manufacturer to be used to help dealers sell PM to their customers. That is, presumably, the best they got. It isn't very much.

 

[FrankDay]

But it is fun to download
Yes, I am not sure which rider (Wiggins, Cancelara or Martin etc) had trouble to set PM at ITT start yesterday, he was all over that screen. If Wiggins can not pace himself without PM, well this is really interesting. Martin can.
All we can see riders stops PM at hills finish or ITT, those are only moments where they are really interesting in numbers IMHO.

Yes, paraphrasing what someone else said, Wiggins use of the PM allowed him to be first loser.

 

[CoachFergie]

Hmmm what is that taped in place between Tony's aero bar extensions?

 

[FrankDay]

Hmmm what is that taped in place between Tony's aero bar extensions?

Does it matter? If everyone is using it and it is as good as you say then why isn't everyone equally as good?

 

[CoachFergie]

And, there simply is no scientific data to support the conclusion that the PM does anything to enhance performance for users, on average.

You keep saying those words but I don't think you know what you mean.

Anyhow, that slide was prepared by a PM manufacturer to be used to help dealers sell PM to their customers. That is, presumably, the best they got. It isn't very much.

I agree.

 

[oldborn]

Yes, paraphrasing what someone else said, Wiggins use of the PM allowed him to be first loser.

Well it can be said so.
Buddy of mine Andrej Vištica 8h19min19sec Challenge Roth this year (his first IM), 6th place beaten by Chrissie for only minute or so, just ride his P3 on self paced tempo without PM.
As he said sometimes to me, you can go faster and you are allready seeing 500w, sometimes there is only 250w and you are just tired, what I should do then?

 

[CoachFergie]

Does it matter? If everyone is using it and it is as good as you say then why isn't everyone equally as good?

Don't quote me but I don't think Bradley or Tony was using a power meter to ride the bike faster. They have legs and a cardiovascular system to do that.

Wiggins said he used the power meter to go slower at the start.

 

[FrankDay]

Hmmm what is that taped in place between Tony's aero bar extensions?

BTW, even if that were a PM taped between his extensions, it would be impossible for him to use it during the bulk of the race because when his arms are in those arm supports and his hands on the extensions his PM would be on the other side of his arms from his eyes. When he was not in the aero position, as in the picture, it would seem he would be concentrating on other things, rather than the PM, as in the picture.

Assuming that was a PM on his bike it is quite clear it was not possible for it to help him during the race.

 

[oldborn]

Say no to the PM or computers Sarcasm
If I am coaching Wiggins that duct tape should be mandatory. Dude need PM to ride slower, what a hell? He should not look at damn thing and he might be a winner at first place.

 

[CoachFergie]

Irrelevant to the discussion but that is clearly a SRM crankset.

That is an SRM on the World Champions bike

 

[FrankDay]

Irrelevant to the discussion but that is clearly a SRM crankset.

That is an SRM on the World Champions bike

And, it is clear he would not have been able to see the display during the ride. He rode that race on feel and feel alone, regardless of what was on his bike. Perhaps he wanted the data for post race analysis or perhaps it was just there because of sponsorship commitments. Either way, that PM, mounted as it was on that bike could not have been of any significant use to him during the race.

The fact that Wiggins used the PM to help slow him down during the race is interesting but that tactic did not help him to win.

 

[CoachFergie]

And, it is clear he would not have been able to see the display during the ride. He rode that race on feel and feel alone, regardless of what was on his bike.

Most riders rode with a power in the event and all had the head unit mounted where they could see it. If they were looking for retrospective analysis of their rides why not put the wireless head unit somewhere where it would cause less drag.

Perhaps he wanted the data for post race analysis or perhaps it was just there because of sponsorship commitments.

SRM don't sponsor anyone.

Either way, that PM, mounted as it was on that bike could not have been of any significant use to him during the race.

It's very easy to see the data from that position. We set up several SRM units for riders on their TT bikes at NZ TT Champs. If you set the unit to show average power you can easily monitor your pace.

The fact that Wiggins used the PM to help slow him down during the race is interesting but that tactic did not help him to win.

It's not a fact, it's what he claims. It is a fact that this is his best ever result in a World TT Champs as it is for Martin. What would be interesting is answering the question of all of Martin and Wiggins performances over the year, what metric could be used to determine which was the best?

 

[CoachFergie]

Coming back to crank length...

Tony Martin

Brad Wiggins

Where is the compromise in his aerodynamics. Look at the ease with which he can check his power output during the ride. Note the Osymetric rings. He also uses a nasal strip. Neither have been proven to enhance performance.

Fabian Cancellara

David Millar

Marco Pinotti

Here we go, a known Gimmickcranker running long cranks, SRM and IMHO looking down at something. Why is he not using short cranks? Why is he not running Gimmickcranks. Surely if he could deliver the huge gains claimed for such products and concepts they would let him skip the sponsors obligations. If not him why not Cadel Evans in the Tour? There is a guy who knows a bit about getting his way (already stating that Thor Hushovd will not ride the Tour for BMC in 2012).

Taylor Phinney

Reaching down to set an interval on his SRM at the finish. Also using a nasal strip. There has never been any research proving any benefit of using these. But here is a multiple World Champion, with a team of coaches and sport science advisor's putting his faith in an unproven gimmick.

All these riders and pretty much every other rider in long cranks. Not very scientific for sure but none appeared to have compromised their aerodynamic position to run long cranks.

 

[FrankDay]

It's very easy to see the data from that position. We set up several SRM units for riders on their TT bikes at NZ TT Champs. If you set the unit to show average power you can easily monitor your pace.

Unless he has Xray vision (which he might based upon how he dominated) it really is impossible for Martin to see his monitor when it is under his arms and his elbows are together.

 

[CoachFergie]

His arm certainly are close together but they do flare out a little and it also does not preclude him from opening them up to check his progress. Either viewpoint is pure speculation (yours and mine).

Crude analysis of World TT Champs

Interesting charts. Confounded by the fact the first lap was shorter than the 2nd and 3rd but does show that Wiggins paced his ride differently. Better? Who knows. We would need to rerun the race with each rider adopting a fast start, fast finish and paced effort to tell. There is considerable research on this.

 

[FrankDay]

Coming back to crank length...

Tony Martin

Brad Wiggins

Where is the compromise in his aerodynamics. Look at the ease with which he can check his power output during the ride. Note the Osymetric rings. He also uses a nasal strip. Neither have been proven to enhance performance.

Fabian Cancellara

David Millar

Marco Pinotti

Here we go, a known Gimmickcranker running long cranks, SRM and IMHO looking down at something. Why is he not using short cranks? Why is he not running Gimmickcranks. Surely if he could deliver the huge gains claimed for such products and concepts they would let him skip the sponsors obligations. If not him why not Cadel Evans in the Tour? There is a guy who knows a bit about getting his way (already stating that Thor Hushovd will not ride the Tour for BMC in 2012).

Taylor Phinney

Reaching down to set an interval on his SRM at the finish. Also using a nasal strip. There has never been any research proving any benefit of using these. But here is a multiple World Champion, with a team of coaches and sport science advisor's putting his faith in an unproven gimmick.

All these riders and pretty much every other rider in long cranks. Not very scientific for sure but none appeared to have compromised their aerodynamic position to run long cranks.

In your listing of unproven gimmicks used by these elite riders you forgot to mention the power meter.

The fact that elite riders have been able to train themselves to achieve excellent aerodynamic positions while using "standard" crank lengths is not evidence that the readers of this thread are capable of doing the same thing.The whole point is that this change offers a potential benefit to the rider. One won't know if there is any benefit to them by seeing what Tony Martin does. One must experiment on themselves to find out.

 

[CoachFergie]

In your listing of unproven gimmicks used by these elite riders you forgot to mention the power meter.

I think it is quite well established that a power meter does in fact measure power. The only confusion is from those people who think a power meter will turn the pedals for them

The fact that elite riders have been able to train themselves to achieve excellent aerodynamic positions while using "standard" crank lengths is not evidence that the readers of this thread are capable of doing the same thing.The whole point is that this change offers a potential benefit to the rider. One won't know if there is any benefit to them by seeing what Tony Martin does. One must experiment on themselves to find out.

Which is why we look at the science. No significant extra power from changing crank length till you go stupid long or stupid short. No significant change in metabolic efficiency from changing crank length. And offered as a lesser form of evidence (wind tunnel and power data would be the Gold standard) but none of the top performers in the Elite Men's TT at Worlds appear to be compromised in aerodynamics from running longer crank.

So no real evidence has been supplied on the "importance" of crank length.

 

[FrankDay]

I think it is quite well established that a power meter does in fact measure power. The only confusion is from those people who think a power meter will turn the pedals for them

Remember, the object here is to go faster.

There is zero scientific evidence that measuring power in training or racing aids in that end. Qualifies as an unproven gimmick in my book.