The importance of crank length to the cyclist.

[Martin318is]

Not saying I disagree with you - just dont drag me into it unnecessarily

 

[blutto]

wow - you got all that from me pointing out that the missing detail was that the file was faked when I thought it was the actual ride file?

do me a favour and dont quote a post of mine when you are planning to vomit a diatribe about someone that isn't me.

....just take a real deep breath and calm down!....I was just playing off that line that was your post and which I happen to think is very important when trying to understand how science works....and I was actually agreeing you...

...and believe me, I wouldn't vomit a diatribe about someone like you....and let it be known that I save my vomit for those very special occasions when only the most foul techicolour yawn will do....this was not one of those occasions...

Cheers

blutto

 

[onetrack]

A lot of claims of improved performance but no evidence that either performance improved or that one can single out what actually did make the difference.

You have shown no evidence that your coaching has made an improvement in any cyclist. imagine how much faster your riders would be without such a close minded coach!

 

[CoachFergie]

You have shown no evidence that your coaching has made an improvement in any cyclist. imagine how much faster your riders would be without such a close minded coach!

Wub wub wub. Is that the best you can do? Lower yourself to the level of Blutto, Oldborn and Boing.

What does my coaching record (10 NZ Team riders, 6 NZ champions this year, 2 Junior Worlds medals and a Elite Worlds medal but who is counting) have to do with what you can't prove about a claimed improvement in performance from changing crank length?

 

[Boeing]

While discussing the importance of any aspect it is important to make a distinction between improved results and improved performances.

WRT crank length I coach a young girl who has gone from 170mm cranks to 172.5mm and since I started coaching her has gone from placing mid field last year to 2nd fastest overall time at a South Island (of NZ) schools championship time trial and went from mid field in the road race to winning her age group solo by 30 seconds. At the South Island schools tour she went from mid field to age group champion. At the NZ schools champs she went from 4th in her age group to NZ champion.

Big improvements in results and because her Father brought her a power meter (not that she claims to care about power even though she has stopped wearing a heart rate strap) we can track her improvements in power. The question is whether she has improved because she races and trains with a power meter, uses fixed gear training, has me as a coach (at SI champs my riders placed 1-2-3 in overall best times out of 150 girls and in her National RR she broke away from a field of 30 with another girl I coach for the win), the change in cranks length, being a year older, having more experience and so on. A large variety of factors could contribute towards her improved results.

With the power meter we can measure her improvements riding the bike. But very hard to separate the reasons why she has improved. Hence the need to use research that controls for these factors like the Martin and McDaniel studies that showed no significant changes in power or efficiency from changing crank length.

I think you chose the wrong career. you should have been an Evangelical Preacher

 

[Martin318is]

....just take a real deep breath and calm down!....I was just playing off that line that was your post and which I happen to think is very important when trying to understand how science works....and I was actually agreeing you...

...and believe me, I wouldn't vomit a diatribe about someone like you....and let it be known that I save my vomit for those very special occasions when only the most foul techicolour yawn will do....this was not one of those occasions...

Cheers

blutto

well played sir!

 

[oldborn]

Wub wub wub. Is that the best you can do? Lower yourself to the level of Blutto, Oldborn and Boing.

What does my coaching record (10 NZ Team riders, 6 NZ champions this year, 2 Junior Worlds medals and a Elite Worlds medal but who is counting) have to do with what you can't prove about a claimed improvement in performance from changing crank length?

P.S. Fargo no! I do not want to be your friend, stop sending me friend requests.

 

[180mmCrank]

Well, I am trying hard to understand your perspective. If that was directed towards me, could you rephrase what you were trying to say so I could better understand it.

It was and remains a general comment. If I had something specific to say to a member of the forum they would receive a PM from me.

The last few posts have strayed from discussing the topic and seem to be more about the people posting. The forum is best used to discuss topics and is not for commenting or offering opinions about the people posting.

Try to stick to the topic and avoid making comments about someone's coaching ability!

Terry

 

[onetrack]

NOsymetric

My second cx win on 145mm cranks was using a 38t osymetric ring. Since then, it's been taking pretty much all week to recover from races, and fatigue sets in after only a few laps, was getting passed by guys who I easily beat in preseason .I figured that, being my first cross season, some level of overtraining was creeping in, or maybe the 145's only work if I am up on my powercrank training. But then I remembered the ring.

Yesterday I went back to my old ring, and it was like night and day. Power endurance and recovery are back. Not quite where I was in august, but getting there. it seems the osymetric curve is too steep for short cranks, the hard end over powering the push muscles, the easy end too easy for the pull muscles to contribute.

This may give some evidence of exactly what is happening on the tighter circle of short cranks. Maybe they allow a more coordinated, rounder pedal stroke that incorporates hamstrings and hip flexors more so than standard length cranks which makes up for the decrease in leverage making for a net gain in power.

 

[oldborn]

180mm dude, do not think that you are somehow, well let me say another way.
You are riding 180mm so your bias (is that good word) here is rather obvious.
I was wonder where have you been for 6 months or so We need discipline here, so I am all for you dude.
P.S. Did you delete my kool post without warning?

 

[CoachFergie]

My second cx win on 145mm cranks was using a 38t osymetric ring. Since then, it's been taking pretty much all week to recover from races, and fatigue sets in after only a few laps, was getting passed by guys who I easily beat in preseason .I figured that, being my first cross season, some level of overtraining was creeping in, or maybe the 145's only work if I am up on my powercrank training. But then I remembered the ring.

Yesterday I went back to my old ring, and it was like night and day. Power endurance and recovery are back. Not quite where I was in august, but getting there. it seems the osymetric curve is too steep for short cranks, the hard end over powering the push muscles, the easy end too easy for the pull muscles to contribute.

This may give some evidence of exactly what is happening on the tighter circle of short cranks. Maybe they allow a more coordinated, rounder pedal stroke that incorporates hamstrings and hip flexors more so than standard length cranks which makes up for the decrease in leverage making for a net gain in power.

Ahah, so not only are we adding short cranks to the mix, there is also independent cranks and osymetric rings. I have highlighted all the opinions made in this post. Where is there any real evidence? Alex, Tapeworm, Dr Coggan and I could post all day about the riders who stayed on the same crank length and have made real performance gains that we can show because we race and train using a power meter.

Just to add some flavour we could add celebrity endorsement to the mix showing that Tony Martin, Bradley Wiggins and Fabian Cancellara used long cranks to place 1-2-3 at World Champs in the Time Trial and can compare their performances to previous efforts just in case their is a bigger event next year that they wish to perform in because they all raced with a SRM. Same for 4 time Kona Ironman Champion Craig Alexander.

But the evidence that crank length played an actual role in these examples is speculative as there are thousands of variables that determine performance and crank length is only one. Fortunately the variable has been studied and there is no significant benefit. So in terms of "importance" of crank length there is still no real evidence to support the concept. For every anecdote the short independent crank brigade supply I can provide 2-3 examples of a valid and reliable measure of performance gain using evidence based practice.

 

[oldborn]

Jesus Christ Fargo. Dude is winning at xc races and you are worried about so called findings.
Let me say this, neither your papers and science (which you are not) did not test these cranks at xc races and same conditions, neither you are authority to say otherwise.

Main point here is; did dude mention some papers? No he is not, he just was saying that he is feels better now.

Who are you to say that dude is not faster on shorter crancks?

P.S. About your illusions "how great I am" we can find on every 2nd forum worldwide searching for clients, and selling PM who are BTW "no real evidence for beeing faster", how really you are different?

As for your "science" obsession; we all know how you call every evidence which is not in your favor

Move on, power are really off these days, old.

 

[FrankDay]

One more short crank anecdote.

57 yo Gregory Taylor won his age group (55-59) at the Ironman World Championships this past weekend on 150 mm cranks. I think his aero bike position looks pretty good although I think he could get a little better if he went a bit shorter. I will be talking to him about this.

 

[CoachFergie]

Appears that the majority of athletes at Kona were using normal length cranks.

How does a result provide any evidence of the "importance" of crank length?

 

[FrankDay]

How does a result provide any evidence of the "importance" of crank length?

Hey Fergie, it is anecdotal evidence. I think that qualifies as "any evidence".

Anyhow, a little more information. This year both his swim and his run were within 1 minute of his last year's 3rd place times. But, his bike was 11 minutes faster. If he gives me any insight as to what he felt about the change when I hear from him I will pass it on.

 

[CoachFergie]

Hey Fergie, it is anecdotal evidence. I think that qualifies as "any evidence".

Only if you could show that of the 10,000 or so variables that determine an Ironman result that crank length was the only thing this person changed between last year and this year.

Average of the bike splits for the top 5 men were the fastest ever since they started recording this in 1994.

I can just as equally claim that riding short cranks limited the athlete to just an 11 minute improvement in bike time.

 

[sciguy]

Hey Fergie, it is anecdotal evidence. I think that qualifies as "any evidence".

Anyhow, a little more information. This year both his swim and his run were within 1 minute of his last year's 3rd place times. But, his bike was 11 minutes faster. If he gives me any insight as to what he felt about the change when I hear from him I will pass it on.

Not to take anything away from a really excellent result but his placing might also been affected by the fact that neither Joe B. or Jean-Marc B. raced Kona this year.

I would be glad to concede that using 150mm cranks may well have helped Greg reach a better aerodynamic position without loss of power. His choice of hydration system on the other hand has tested very poorly in the wind tunnel.

Hugh

 

[FrankDay]

Not to take anything away from a really excellent result but his placing might also been affected by the fact that neither Joe B. or Jean-Marc B. raced Kona this year.

I would be glad to concede that using 150mm cranks may well have helped Greg reach a better aerodynamic position without loss of power. His choice of hydration system on the other hand has tested very poorly in the wind tunnel.

Hugh

Well, the same characters have been battling it out at the top of various age-groups for years and years. Bonness wasn't there but Moats (who wasn't there last year but won the group in 2009) was and second was a 55 yo just entering the age group.

Anyhow, one thing, I think, can be said for sure, those cranks did not slow him down.

 

[CoachFergie]

Anyhow, one thing, I think, can be said for sure, those cranks did not slow him down.

How can you claim that for sure? Did he use a valid and reliable measure of cycling performance to determine if he did actually perform better on the bike.

 

[Martin318is]

180mm dude, do not think that you are somehow, well let me say another way.
You are riding 180mm so your bias (is that good word) here is rather obvious.
I was wonder where have you been for 6 months or so We need discipline here, so I am all for you dude.
P.S. Did you delete my kool post without warning?

No, I did.
I may have left it up if you had written "cool story bro" instead of using a large jpg to do it. As Terry pointed out however, there was nothing in that post that was on topic - it was just picking on another poster in the thread. As such, I removed it.

 

[Martin318is]

Well, the same characters have been battling it out at the top of various age-groups for years and years. Bonness wasn't there but Moats (who wasn't there last year but won the group in 2009) was and second was a 55 yo just entering the age group.

Anyhow, one thing, I think, can be said for sure, those cranks did not slow him down.

Sorry Frank, I have to agree with Fergie on that one. You can't show that he wouldn't have been even faster on standard length cranks so you can;t be 'sure' that the short cranks didn't slow him down.

Its an anecdote that someone was happy with their performance on shorter cranks - lets leave it at that.

 

[FrankDay]

Sorry Frank, I have to agree with Fergie on that one. You can't show that he wouldn't have been even faster on standard length cranks so you can;t be 'sure' that the short cranks didn't slow him down.

Its an anecdote that someone was happy with their performance on shorter cranks - lets leave it at that.

Yes, it is an anecdote. I don't even know he was happy with it as I haven't communicated with him. Maybe he had a mechanical and would have been even faster. However, that having been said, it is very difficult to win your age group at the Ironman World Championships regardless of who is there. It is especially hard when you are 3 years older than the youngest member of the group and the youngest member of the group is 55. Most at this age are not getting faster.

Anyhow, I am glad to see that Fergie seems to have at least one person who agrees with something he says.

 

[CoachFergie]

Yes, it is an anecdote. I don't even know he was happy with it as I haven't communicated with him. Maybe he had a mechanical and would have been even faster. However, that having been said, it is very difficult to win your age group at the Ironman World Championships regardless of who is there. It is especially hard when you are 3 years older than the youngest member of the group and the youngest member of the group is 55. Most at this age are not getting faster.

Agreed. A win is a win. Kudos to that man!

Anyhow, I am glad to see that Fergie seems to have at least one person who agrees with something he says.

Just asking the hard questions as anyone with a passion for improving performance would. Always running my ideas and observations past sport scientists and other coaches. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't but when making an argument one needs to supply real evidence.

Saves me from making public claims I can't back up.

 

[FrankDay]

Just asking the hard questions as anyone with a passion for improving performance would. Always running my ideas and observations past sport scientists and other coaches. Sometimes they agree, sometimes they don't but when making an argument one needs to supply real evidence.

Saves me from making public claims I can't back up.

LOL. Phooeey. One only needs evidence if one is trying to prove something. One can make an argument on theoretical grounds with zero evidence. I think that is what Einstein did with the theory of relativity.

 

[Martin318is]

Yes, it is an anecdote. I don't even know he was happy with it as I haven't communicated with him. Maybe he had a mechanical and would have been even faster. However, that having been said, it is very difficult to win your age group at the Ironman World Championships regardless of who is there. It is especially hard when you are 3 years older than the youngest member of the group and the youngest member of the group is 55. Most at this age are not getting faster.

Anyhow, I am glad to see that Fergie seems to have at least one person who agrees with something he says.

Frank - stop making things petty and personal.

The simple fact remains that even though it IS hard to win an Ironman - or whatever - you simply do not have ANY evidence to be able to claim that the short cranks didn't hurt his performance in the manner you just did.

I'm sorry that you see this point of view as being somehow linked to Fergie but frankly it is really basic logic.

I was not attempting to shoot holes in you or whatever, but I think you shoot yourself in the foot with that type of statement.