The Iron Lady has passed away

Page 6 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

ANCrider

BANNED
Mar 25, 2013
81
0
0
Glenn_Wilson said:
How were they trolls? The trolls being up thread where a few posters show some support or respect to M.T.?

This post made by a admin? Unbelievable. :cool:

:
Come on. With your high post count you must have been here long enough to know that on this forum if you disagree with the point of view of a mod it's trolling ;)
 
May 26, 2009
4,114
0
0
ANCrider said:
Come on. With your high post count you must have been here long enough to know that on this forum if you disagree with the point of view of a mod it's trolling ;)
Excellent reply! Good job sir. Now if we can get back to 'fighting' in a certain sub forum that would be great :D
 
auscyclefan94 said:
Sad how bitter some of you people really are. I don't why I post on here sometimes.
Tell that to the relatives of the people that died in the Hillsborough disaster due to the police that she helped cover up and blamed the fans .:mad:

She also called Mandela a terrorist
She also supported brutal regimes ie Pinochet
Please fell free to come to Yorkshire and visit a working mens club and tell all the ex miners ,steelworkers ,railway workers etc how they should fell sad for her .:mad::mad:
 
Echoes said:
Thanks for all this smmary. I've always had a soft spot for the Irish people and hope that Ireland once will be reunited. :)

Is it true that Maggie once suggested that all Catholics from Ulster be exiled to the South? One of my uni professors once told me !

Anyway another great song as a tribute to Bobby Sands is by the band Soldat Louis from Brittany: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cr3JDEM-Y8Q

Chorus:
The songs from the streets of Belfast
have the same flavour of Ireland
They cry like the sky of Belfast
liked cried the eyes of Bobby Sands
liked cried my eyes for Bobby Sands

...

All songs from Northern Ireland
Recall an iron lady
who swore herself to see 'em dead
a Catholic passport "Good for Hell




I can't disagree with all this.

My only problem concerns what was going on before the "liberal revolution" (because for me it was a revolution). You seem to argue that conservatism is of necessity elitist and negative (or amoral?).
But in many countries the Welfare State was created by Conservatives (like in France with General de Gaulle or in Germany with Bismarck). In France, the liberal revolution was led by the left-wing government of President Mitterrand.

I agree on the destructive power of globalization but the solution against it is a strong state and maybe some sort of protectionism, which is usually associated with conservatism, some sort economic patriotism. Before the Maastricht Treaty (whose art. 63 states there can be no restriction on capital movement between a member state and a non-Euro country.), which was signed up by Maggie's successor John Major, a company could never move capitals outside the limits, without permission from the government.

Besides here on the continent there are many farmers and small craftsmen who would vote right-wing, despite the fact that they're in deep purple. Is that suicide?



I don't know much about him but he supports Assad. Enough reasons for me to like him.



But I don't believe in democracy. So that's not how you'll convince me she was good.



France 1983, left-wing President François Mitterrand (with communists in the government !!!) started the liberal revolution known as La Rigueur, with the end of wage indexation and the abolition of the Glass-Steagall Act equivalent among other despicable things. Then even the right-wingers were demonstrating in the streets !!
Everyone jumped on the bandwagon. It all boils down to policy. Globalization and hence liberalism may have been "the way of the future," though one must contemplate what animates the phenomena and in whose interests.

We moved from a XIX century model of hyper-rivalry between states to one in which state welfare has been determined by economic governance, without at once having established a global set of rules in which competition is to be guided. The rest was a foregone conclusion.
 

ANCrider

BANNED
Mar 25, 2013
81
0
0
BYOP88 said:
Excellent reply! Good job sir. Now if we can get back to 'fighting' in a certain sub forum that would be great :D
Fight? Where? Give me a link and I'll parachute right in...
 
Jan 20, 2013
897
0
0
http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2012/09/12/hillsborough-tragedy-margaret-thatcher-concern-1989-report-police_n_1878520.html

For me, there are two horror stories the first is Hillsborough cover up. Mrs Thatcher met with Trevor Hicks just after he had lost both his daughters in the disaster, he told her he had grave concerns about police version of events. Thatcher assured him there was no cover up, when she had info to the contrary.

The second is the creation of Tony Blair, and blairism, that Thatcher proudly admits to.

Thatcher was a self actualiser who deeply hated the working classes, probable unjustly, and created a culture of winners and losers, and that if you want to get things done and rise to the top you do it by sh*ting on people. This lead to the unbalanced economy we are now enjoying.

That said she had more balls than all of her spineless cabinate all put together, and she really did too. For that one might admire her unreservedly.
 
Dec 30, 2011
3,547
0
0
ferryman said:
I'm out, but please don't let the trolls get under your skin for much longer mate.
There are millions of people out there who are of the opinion that Margaret Thatcher did a world of good for Britain and the world. A significant amount of them are way more intelligent than you.

So when you brand them all as trolls... well really I guess I am left speechless especially as you are supposed to be a mod.

Captain Sensible said:
She also called Mandela a terrorist
I don't know where you got this from but Thatcher was in regular correspondence with Mandela whilst he was in prison and was an immensely huge factor in the ANC succeeding.
 
Froome19 said:
There are millions of people out there who are of the opinion that Margaret Thatcher did a world of good for Britain and the world. A significant amount of them are way more intelligent than you.

So when you brand them all as trolls... well really I guess I am left speechless especially as you are supposed to be a mod.


I don't know where you got this from but Thatcher was in regular correspondence with Mandela whilst he was in prison and was an immensely huge factor in the ANC succeeding.
She viewed the ANC as typical terrorist organisation.
 
Dec 30, 2011
3,547
0
0
Zam_Olyas said:
She viewed the ANC as typical terrorist organisation.
Cyivel said:
You might want to check out hers and some of her MP's quotes on the ANC
Thanks, as I have said I do not have an extensive knowledge of her acts.

I recently read a very illuminating article about her involvement with the ANC. Of course it was strongly biased but it portrayed her in a very favourable light. Having said that I would be happy to see the other side.
 
Froome19 said:
There are millions of people out there who are of the opinion that Margaret Thatcher did a world of good for Britain and the world. A significant amount of them are way more intelligent than you.

So when you brand them all as trolls... well really I guess I am left speechless especially as you are supposed to be a mod.


I don't know where you got this from but Thatcher was in regular correspondence with Mandela whilst he was in prison and was an immensely huge factor in the ANC succeeding.
That is utter boll*cks. She was a staunch supporter of the apartheid regime and only gave in after being forced to by her cabinet. I suppose you're next going to say her back channel discussions with the IRA show she really wanted them to succeed?
 
Dec 30, 2011
3,547
0
0
King Boonen said:
That is utter boll*cks. She was a staunch supporter of the apartheid regime and only gave in after being forced to by her cabinet. I suppose you're next going to say her back channel discussions with the IRA show she really wanted them to succeed?
That doesn't contradict the bolded, but whatever.
 
Froome19 said:
There are millions of people out there who are of the opinion that Margaret Thatcher did a world of good for Britain and the world. A significant amount of them are way more intelligent than you. ng.
The counter side to that is just as many disagree that she did good for Britain I live just about on the south yorks / notts border that in 84 was more or less a police state not that many people living elsewhere in the country will have known .
Yes some people did very well from her polices but many more didn't and are still suffering to this day from her ideas .
Maybe if the bankers had lost there jobs and the banks shut down the same as she did to the miners railway and steelworkers the rich and privilege city workers might start to begin to understand what she did to the working classes.
I also don't agree that the tax payers have to pay for her funeral :mad:
 
Dec 30, 2011
3,547
0
0
Captain Sensible said:
The counter side to that is just as many disagree that she did good for Britain I live just about on the south yorks / notts border that in 84 was more or less a police state not that many people living elsewhere in the country will have known .
All true and to be infuriated with her is understandable, but that doesn't warrant labelling others of differing opinions as trolls.
 
Froome19 said:
That doesn't contradict the bolded, but whatever.
Yes it does. She supported De Klerk, refused tougher sanctions and labelled the ANC and, by association Nelson Mandela, as terrorists. She may have been racist, or she may have being trying to block Russian funded communism in Africa, something the rich, white South Africans greatly feared, but she did everything she could to maintain the South African status quo until she was forced to capitulate.

The ANC succeeded despite Margaret Thatcher, not because of her.
 
Dec 30, 2011
3,547
0
0
King Boonen said:
Yes it does. She supported De Klerk, refused tougher sanctions and labelled the ANC and, by association Nelson Mandela, as terrorists. She may have been racist, or she may have being trying to block Russian funded communism in Africa, something the rich, white South Africans greatly feared, but she did everything she could to maintain the South African status quo until she was forced to capitulate.

The ANC succeeded despite Margaret Thatcher, not because of her.
She refused tougher sanctions for her own reasons and I don't believe they were necessarily related to her specific views on the apartheid.

She attempted to force De Klerk to cease the abuse and to release Mandela. She was tolerant of him and for some than may be unforgiving but I see that as being the way to deal with him. He needed support in handing over power not browbeating.

The night before removing the ban on the ANC and releasing Mandela De Klerk phoned the SA ambassador and told him to tell Thatcher than she would not be disappointed.
 
Ferminal said:
So even taking the economy at face value, growth rates were better before than after, yet she worked some kind of economic miracle which would have doomed the country otherwise?
Inflation in the years before her was running in double figures (up to numbers like 25% a year). The IMF was called in to finance that inflation gap. The UK was heading the way of Argentina, ironically. Argentina was the world fifth richest country a century ago, but years of inflation, flawed public policy and extreme socialism did not make it a better place.

rhubroma said:
When the costs of home production were too high to meet consumption demands based of course on the folly of eternal growth, capitalism found a way to compensate by exploiting more congenial labor markets abroad in the underdeveloped world, thus eviscerating local manufacturing and depressing entire segments of society. At the same time a service industry was invented to provide jobs to workers no longer in the labor market, while mass credit became a way for the banks to profit on interest repayments on the money that wasn't put into their salaries. Nice system.

Of course to make it all work the social state had to be literally dismantled along with the trade barriers, while the financial markets had to become deregulated for capital to obtain its final dominion over human beings, the big players to get exceedingly rich, while the middle class and poor increasingly struggled, stripped as they were of even the minimum of social net to cushion the fall - though at once were given promises of a better life if they just continued to be good consumers and have faith in the opportunities that the neoliberal regime with its "new economy" surely would promise.

Thatcher, who was really the last traditional States(wo)man, and Regan, who was really the first post-modern one in his conviction that sovereign debt really doesn’t matter, shared a common loathing for society and collective organization and had a policy guided by a market fundamentalism that has since demonstrated to have impoverished the West both materially and culturally, while at once signaling its decline. The general boom in the beginning, however, rested mostly upon rhetorical foundations and was geared to stirring up the most deplorable human instincts: greed, callousness, mendacity, materialism, baseness.

Communism was vigorously opposed even in supporting the most bloody dictators and regimes, while having tea with the torturers of Pinochet, for her Mendela was a terrorist, Mideast policy further fostered anti-Western Arab loathing, Britain moved further away from Europe, workers became destitute, the financial markets were all a buzz, etc.

When in 1979 she became Prime Minister, Britain was in a manner of speaking suspended between the failed attempt of the previous labor government to give life and stability to a social democracy and a new approach toward economic governance. The latter triumphed over the former, while Thatcher seminated more division than any political figure in modern history. Mass unemployment, closed factories, destroyed communities: that's what she left in her wake. She was a warrior and her foe was the working class. Her victories were facilitated in large part by a corrupt labor party and a majority of the union leaders. Thanks to her policy, which gave rise to neoliberal economics, Britain and the West finds itself in the current disaster.

Not what we call a decent track record, either in regards to the shape and form of the evolution of capitalism or in regards to policy.
Thatcher became prime minister in a year where ambulance workers striked and refused to answer 999 calls. Letting people die and suffer for pay rise, how is that differing from the greed we have seen uncovered in big financial institutions? British society at the time was rotten to the core. A society where unionists are ok with murdering cattle of farmers (due to blockades of farm food), for pay rise and power? How is that sustainable?

That's the point. Under Thatcher unemployment soared. However, the big question was, was it her fault? When mines need to be subsidized because they are five times less productive than continental counterparts, what is the value of those jobs? Do they have value at all, or are those people de facto unemployed? In the years before Thatcher, there was a lot of unemployment in disguise, she uncovered it.

I'm reluctant to discuss British internal affairs as it is none of my business. I however vehemently oppose the notion that Thatcher personally ruined Britain. It is my opinion that she was too ruthless in dealing with the issues presented to her (shock treatment might not be the best way) and here solution to abolish a lot of sectors alltogether were in hindsight not her best move. She however prevented Britain from becoming Argentina, or Greece, or another country where people do not want to accept that one has to produce first (or at least invest to produce in future) before one can consume (this is an issue with a lot of countries nowadays again sadly, not only the ones mentioned).

I don't want to discuss capitalism from an ideological point of view. I do observe though, that countries following the capitalist model as opposed to another option, are generally best off in today's world. Moreover, with their search for efficiency, they have given countries like Korea, China and others the opportunity to step on the international bandwagon, making life better for everyone.

Altitude said:
Lol, I was going to post that as well.

Statement from Moz:

Every move she made was charged by negativity; she destroyed the British manufacturing industry, she hated the miners, she hated the arts, she hated the Irish Freedom Fighters and allowed them to die, she hated the English poor and did nothing at all to help them, she hated Greenpeace and environmental protectionists, she was the only European political leader who opposed a ban on the Ivory Trade, she had no wit and no warmth and even her own Cabinet booted her out. She gave the order to blow up The Belgrano even though it was outside of the Malvinas Exclusion Zone - and was sailing AWAY from the islands! When the young Argentinean boys aboard The Belgrano had suffered a most appalling and unjust death, Thatcher gave the thumbs up sign for the British press. Iron? No. Barbaric? Yes. She hated feminists even though it was largely due to the progression of the women's movement that the British people allowed themselves to accept that a Prime Minister could actually be female. But because of Thatcher, there will never again be another woman in power in British politics, and rather than opening that particular door for other women, she closed it. Thatcher will only be fondly remembered by sentimentalists who did not suffer under her leadership, but the majority of British working people have forgotten her already, and the people of Argentina will be celebrating her death. As a matter of recorded fact, Thatcher was a terror without an atom of humanity.
People of Argentina? People of Argentina, under totalitarian authorities, started the war in the Falklands, British territory (of course, you can discuss whether Britain had the right to own those rocks, or indeed any rocks in other parts of the world, but that is not the point here), Thatcher only started to defend after the Argentines attacked. If that is a bad thing, I would speak German now.

Is hating Greenpeace a bad thing? I do it as well, with passion. This is because I believe in property rights. Doesn't mean I'm not worried about the climate or greenery (not a lot actually, one more year with current temperatures and we dived below the lowest % of the 99% confidence interval for worldwide temperature increase prediction) I just don't want to use force against objects or persons to make my point. However, Thatcher was one of the first political figures to start worrying about CO2, long before it became fashionable.
 
Mar 12, 2010
545
0
0
Thatcher was very much a supporter of Apartheid. The ANC were a terrorist organisation, when the rest of the world was putting sanctions against RSA in the 80's Thatcher refused, working with the minority white government instead.

She only publicly softened her stance when public opinion started to build momentum, culminating in a fairly huge concert at Wembley Stadium in 1988. The tide had turned, and certainly in Britain there was no way she could any longer publicly support the minority government.

What was interesting is even prior to the concert a motion was filed in the commons by 24 Tory MP's slamming the BBC (Who broadcast the concert) for giving "publicity to a movement that encourages the African National Congress in its terrorist activities" - Yes, that was Thatchers government, a government that when the world is crying out for the release of Nelson Mandela, actively criticizes the BBC for broadcasting such a concert.

John Carlisle MP said:
This hero worship is very much misplaced

Margaret Thatcher said:
The ANC is a typical terrorist organisation ... Anyone who thinks it is going to run the government in South Africa is living in cloud-cuckoo land

Terry Dicks MP said:
How much longer will the Prime Minister allow herself to be kicked in the face by this black terrorist?

Teddy Taylor MP said:
Nelson Mandela should be shot
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/from-terrorist-to-tea-with-the-queen-1327902.html
 
Froome19 said:
She refused tougher sanctions for her own reasons and I don't believe they were necessarily related to her specific views on the apartheid.

She attempted to force De Klerk to cease the abuse and to release Mandela. She was tolerant of him and for some than may be unforgiving but I see that as being the way to deal with him. He needed support in handing over power not browbeating.

The night before removing the ban on the ANC and releasing Mandela De Klerk phoned the SA ambassador and told him to tell Thatcher than she would not be disappointed.
Her own reasons? What might these be?

She didn't attempt anything, she turned down the opportunity to really force anything for "personal reasons" as you say.

Being tolerant in any way is a disgrace. He did not need support, he needed forcing and she refused to do that.

You may also find this interesting reading. Reagan's and Thatcher's policies have been exported round the world and are the reason we are in this current state of financial crisis. http://www.academia.edu/1830636/Neoliberal_Plague_The_Political_Economy_of_HIV_Transmission_in_Swaziland
 
Arnout said:
Thatcher became prime minister in a year where ambulance workers striked and refused to answer 999 calls. Letting people die and suffer for pay rise, how is that differing from the greed we have seen uncovered in big financial institutions? British society at the time was rotten to the core. A society where unionists are ok with murdering cattle of farmers (due to blockades of farm food), for pay rise and power? How is that sustainable?

That's the point. Under Thatcher unemployment soared. However, the big question was, was it her fault? When mines need to be subsidized because they are five times less productive than continental counterparts, what is the value of those jobs? Do they have value at all, or are those people de facto unemployed? In the years before Thatcher, there was a lot of unemployment in disguise, she uncovered it.

I'm reluctant to discuss British internal affairs as it is none of my business. I however vehemently oppose the notion that Thatcher personally ruined Britain. It is my opinion that she was too ruthless in dealing with the issues presented to her (shock treatment might not be the best way) and here solution to abolish a lot of sectors alltogether were in hindsight not her best move. She however prevented Britain from becoming Argentina, or Greece, or another country where people do not want to accept that one has to produce first (or at least invest to produce in future) before one can consume (this is an issue with a lot of countries nowadays again sadly, not only the ones mentioned).

I don't want to discuss capitalism from an ideological point of view. I do observe though, that countries following the capitalist model as opposed to another option, are generally best off in today's world. Moreover, with their search for efficiency, they have given countries like Korea, China and others the opportunity to step on the international bandwagon, making life better for everyone.
Though the unions weren't estranged from capitalist praxis. Look, I'm well aware that the unions weren't ethical, nor estranged from vested interests (evidently civilization couldn't stomach otherwise), indeed they shamelessly pursued them, however, there is a difference between an economic free-for-all and collecitve policy. Thatcher opted for the former. There is a choice in that no? At which point can we say that that line, I don't say ruins Britain, but the world?

Answers?
 

ASK THE COMMUNITY

TRENDING THREADS