The Iron Lady has passed away

[del1962]

Whatever your opinion on Galloway maybe this was fun viewing. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b4LDQixpCa8

This one is much more interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIy_GmvUElE

 

[Zam_Olyas]

This one is much more interesting

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIy_GmvUElE

A guy fawning over another guy is not interesting for me.

 

[The Hitch]

George Galloway now their is a complete loon. There a very few men I can't stand, and he is one of them.

Amen to that.

 

[rhubroma]

The Iron Lady's dead

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum [dicendem]. “Of the dead, nothing [is spoken] unless good.” At the same time it’s rather difficult from the perspective of many a European citizen who lived through those torpid years full of partisan conflicts in favor of the “haves” against everyone else to speak only good words; along with others of her times Thatcher rendered Europe, and perhaps the world, worse than before.

Consequently, the ex-prime minister of Italy, Romano Prodi, has justly stated that as a serious person he won’t be shedding crocodile tears over Thatcher’s death. She and Reagan were the standard bearers of neoliberal/liberalist thought that has dramatically widened the gap between rich and poor in today's world and has provoked many of the rotten defects which currently afflict us. It wasn’t manifestly true, therefore, what they preached: liberalism has not created along with the enormous wealth of some, the wellbeing of many, but material and cultural misery.

She also laid down the foundations that has torn down the welfare state and, along with Reagan, kicked open the door that unleashed a savage capitalism. As a practical consequence of Thatcher’s and Reagan’s policy, ironically in the moment of capitalism’s triumph over communism, the decline and fall of the West initiated.

She was even worse than Churchill, who was exclusively animated by an anti-communist agenda. Few, therefore, should miss her.

 

[Semper Fidelis]

Awesome how this thread turned out.

 

[King Boonen]

I think to understand why she is hated so much you have to understand that she aligned all of her policies with herself, not her party. She made them her battles, it was her against the miners, her against Argentina, she introduced the Poll Tax etc.

Celebrating the death of Thatcher is more celebrating the death of these ideals because they were so closely associated with her and we now finally hope that we can rid ourselves of them.

As someone whose family worked down the mines, and was ripped apart by her policies, I can finally hope that Thatcherism really is dead.

 

[TheGame]

Awesome how this thread turned out.

Even more awesome it was started by an Australian.

 

[hrotha]

Problem is those ideals don't die with her. She and others like her laid down the foundations of the current economic crisis by kickstarting the deregulation of the economy.

 

[King Boonen]

Problem is those ideals don't die with her. She and others like her laid down the foundations of the current economic crisis by kickstarting the deregulation of the economy.

I know, and politicians are continuing her destruction. I can only hope people will now realise what she and he government really did to these countries and we can set about repairing it.

 

[Cobblestones]

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum [dicendem]. “Of the dead, nothing [is spoken] unless good.” At the same time it’s rather difficult from the perspective of many a European citizen ...

Hey, you stole my line or maybe it's just a case of great minds thinking alike.

To the Aussie who started this thread I'd suggest to go to any place in Northern England, preferentially a former mining community, and proclaim publicly what was written in the OP. A good health insurance is recommended.

 

[eagleofditchling]

As an ex resident of south yorkshire and an ex employee of the NCB good ****ing riddance!

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Dailymail

 

[Arnout]

De mortuis nihil nisi bonum [dicendem]. “Of the dead, nothing [is spoken] unless good.” At the same time it’s rather difficult from the perspective of many a European citizen who lived through those torpid years full of partisan conflicts in favor of the “haves” against everyone else to speak only good words; along with others of her times Thatcher rendered Europe, and perhaps the world, worse than before.

Consequently, the ex-prime minister of Italy, Romano Prodi, has justly stated that as a serious person he won’t be shedding crocodile tears over Thatcher’s death. She and Reagan were the standard bearers of neoliberal/liberalist thought that has dramatically widened the gap between rich and poor in today's world and has provoked many of the rotten defects which currently afflict us. It wasn’t manifestly true, therefore, what they preached: liberalism has not created along with the enormous wealth of some, the wellbeing of many, but material and cultural misery.

She also laid down the foundations that has torn down the welfare state and, along with Reagan, kicked open the door that unleashed a savage capitalism. As a practical consequence of Thatcher’s and Reagan’s policy, ironically in the moment of capitalism’s triumph over communism, the decline and fall of the West initiated.

She was even worse than Churchill, who was exclusively animated by an anti-communist agenda. Few, therefore, should miss her.

Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.

 

[LugHugger]

some people appear to believe that Britain was an oasis of calm pre-Thatcher. IMF bail outs, an economy crippled by labour disputes, grossly inefficient State run monopolies, 3 day weeks, power cuts. This was 70s Britain. i've always thought Thatcher's election was a reaction to a nation slowly sliding into poverty. Radical unions were strangling the life from the economy in denial of the infant roots of globalisation. The status quo was unsustainable.

 

[Arnout]

some people appear to believe that Britain was an oasis of calm pre-Thatcher. IMF bail outs, an economy crippled by labour disputes, grossly inefficient State run monopolies, 3 day weeks, power cuts. This was 70s Britain. i've always thought Thatcher's election was a reaction to a nation slowly sliding into poverty. Radical unions were strangling the life from the economy in denial of the infant roots of globalisation. The status quo was unsustainable.

Exactly. The entire Western world was going down at the time, with ultra-generous welfare states, unsustainable budget deficits and generally an attitude that the West could do anything and still carry on to be prosperous. We needed two oil shocks to wake up from that dream.

Unfortunately the same mistakes are made today. This time not only in the welfare state (although that's part of it), but also in the way our economic system operates. Again, we think we can manage if we just hold our breath.

 

[aphronesis]

Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.

Might there be a difference between moving a country away from useless industry and divesting labor--however regressive--of certain rights?

 

[Amsterhammer]

Overall people living in capitalism are still vastly better off than during Thatcher's reign. In that sense, saying that she created enormous misery is misguided at best. What Thatcher did was prepare for the future. Societies needed a shake up. Looking at England in the 70s, we see outdated coal mines and a dysfunctional manufacturing sector, combined with a generous welfare state. This combination was unsustainable, and Thatcher tried to fix this. Maybe she was too brutal in doing some things, but in the end there was no choice.

Bull****. Only a VVD supporter could have written this apologia for Thatcherism.

Zammo, many British left wingers, Private Eye readers, and other cynics, have referred to the Mail as the Daily Nazi for decades now. It is an unashamedly fawning supporter of everything that is right wing. Apropos....

I have first hand reports of George Square in downtown Glasgow being full of happy revelers....jigs of joy being danced in canteens, and basically 'ordinary' men and women who survived the selfish onslaught of Thatcherite policies all being glad and relieved that she's finally gone. The only shedding of tears appears to be coming from the UK mainstream media, and the loony right in the US. And ACF.

 

[Cobblestones]

some people appear to believe that Britain was an oasis of calm pre-Thatcher. IMF bail outs, an economy crippled by labour disputes, grossly inefficient State run monopolies, 3 day weeks, power cuts. This was 70s Britain. i've always thought Thatcher's election was a reaction to a nation slowly sliding into poverty. Radical unions were strangling the life from the economy in denial of the infant roots of globalisation. The status quo was unsustainable.

There were coal mines, steel mills, labor unions etc. in other European countries which were subject to the same economics realities. Was Thatcherism the only 'cure' or at least one of the better 'cures'? Of course not. Other countries came out of this crisis without screwing over the working class. Just because something is broken doesn't mean any cure is a good one. When you break a bone in one of your limbs, the cure isn't amputation.

 

[Arnout]

Bull****. Only a VVD supporter could have written this apologia for Thatcherism.

Zammo, many British left wingers, Private Eye readers, and other cynics, have referred to the Mail as the Daily Nazi for decades now. It is an unashamedly fawning supporter of everything that is right wing. Apropos....

I have first hand reports of George Square in downtown Glasgow being full of happy revelers....jigs of joy being danced in canteens, and basically 'ordinary' men and women who survived the selfish onslaught of Thatcherite policies all being glad and relieved that she's finally gone. The only shedding of tears appears to be coming from the UK mainstream media, and the loony right in the US. And ACF.

I'm not a VVD supporter anymore, thanks. VVD has gone after Thatcher, in a way. All I'm saying is that one needs to see Thatchers actions in perspective. Change was needed. I think in the end she went for the wrong solutions, by throwing away the manufacturing sector altogether and moving towards a London-centered financial economy.

However, that doesn't mean she was all wrong.

 

[aphronesis]

Exactly. The entire Western world was going down at the time, with ultra-generous welfare states, unsustainable budget deficits and generally an attitude that the West could do anything and still carry on to be prosperous. We needed two oil shocks to wake up from that dream.

Unfortunately the same mistakes are made today. This time not only in the welfare state (although that's part of it), but also in the way our economic system operates. Again, we think we can manage if we just hold our breath.

This, too is a bit inaccurate: had the saudis not pulled back their policies, they risked invasion on the hard front and no use for their money on the soft.

Things were deeply chaotic at that moment; doesn't justify all her policies-- as you have intimated.

 

[Le breton]

there were coal mines, steel mills, labor unions etc. In other european countries which were subject to the same economics realities. Was thatcherism the only 'cure' or at least one of the better 'cures'? Of course not. Other countries came out of this crisis without screwing over the working class. Just because something is broken doesn't mean any cure is a good one. When you break a bone in one of your limbs, the cure isn't amputation.

absolutely

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Tomorrows paper in britain

 

[Arnout]

This, too is a bit inaccurate: had the saudis not pulled back their policies, they risked invasion on the hard front and no use for their money on the soft.

Things were deeply chaotic at that moment; doesn't justify all her policies-- as you have intimated.

That's because union leaders were de facto leaders of Britain before her, effectively making all policy. The only way out of this (deeply undemocratic) system was to break it down. I am not suere whether her methods for rebuilding society (about which regrettably she didn't care) were optimal, but she safed a country from bankruptcy. From IMF loans to sound economy in 10 yearsm.

 

[aphronesis]

That's because union leaders were de facto leaders of Britain before her, effectively making all policy. The only way out of this (deeply undemocratic) system was to break it down. I am not suere whether her methods for rebuilding society (about which regrettably she didn't care) were optimal, but she safed a country from bankruptcy. From IMF loans to sound economy in 10 yearsm.

I get all that, but IMF loans were the flipside of the same project that she enacted.

 

[Amsterhammer]

I'm not a VVD supporter anymore, thanks. VVD has gone after Thatcher, in a way. All I'm saying is that one needs to see Thatchers actions in perspective. Change was needed. I think in the end she went for the wrong solutions, by throwing away the manufacturing sector altogether and moving towards a London-centered financial economy.

However, that doesn't mean she was all wrong.

Yes, she was. She was certainly all wrong in her dealings with the Irish and Scots, with the miners and the entire manufacturing sector. She was wrong for the Poll Tax, she was wrong to abolish the GLC out of spite because her party could never win control. She was wrong for introducing the Gordon Gekko concept of "greed is good", and making it the leitmotif of her reign. She was wrong in breaking unions for the express purpose of ensuring that the rich elite could become even richer still at the expense of everyone else. She was wrong in supporting the worst right wing killer dictators on the planet, while calling Mandela a "terrorist". For that alone she deserves to be chewed up and spit out by history. She was a vile, manipulating, megalomaniac ***** who liked using the royal 'we'.

The people, certainly those in the US, who are now praising Thatcher and complaining about how the left is reacting, are the same people who rejoiced at the recent passing of Chavez. Many Americans (and others) appear not to realize just how deeply hated this woman was.