The Iron Lady has passed away

[King Boonen]

Adding to the music, here is a very long song from Fela Kuti telling the story o a black, African's point of view of apartheid.

Listen from 19:12 if you don't want to list to the whole thing.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pCpua4dvUXs

Lyrics are here:

http://www.maxilyrics.com/fela-kuti-beasts-of-no-nation-lyrics-8176.html

 

[ANCrider]

Thatcher did get Butch Dingle a job as Gerry Adams voice over guy, so respect to her for that.

Christ, I'd totally forgotten about that ridiculous 'voice ban' in 1988 imposed by Thatcher's government on the broadcasting of Sinn Fein spokespeople

read about it here: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/4409447.stm

It also spawned one of the funniest pieces of satire:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6UhXivPyw4

 

[Zam_Olyas]

tomm's paper in england

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Tomm's paper in england

 

[TheGame]

The Daily Heil

 

[Captain Sensible]

All true and to be infuriated with her is understandable, but that doesn't warrant labelling others of differing opinions as trolls.

Where have I done that ?

 

[Altitude]

People of Argentina? People of Argentina, under totalitarian authorities, started the war in the Falklands, British territory (of course, you can discuss whether Britain had the right to own those rocks, or indeed any rocks in other parts of the world, but that is not the point here), Thatcher only started to defend after the Argentines attacked. If that is a bad thing, I would speak German now.

Is hating Greenpeace a bad thing? I do it as well, with passion. This is because I believe in property rights. Doesn't mean I'm not worried about the climate or greenery (not a lot actually, one more year with current temperatures and we dived below the lowest % of the 99% confidence interval for worldwide temperature increase prediction) I just don't want to use force against objects or persons to make my point. However, Thatcher was one of the first political figures to start worrying about CO2, long before it became fashionable.

Take it up with Morrissey.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Originally Posted by Froome19 View Post
All true and to be infuriated with her is understandable, but that doesn't warrant labelling others of differing opinions as trolls.

Where have I done that ?

Let me just clear up this complete misunderstanding. Froome's original comment was directed at a post of Ferminal's yesterday, which was directed at me. I understood Ferminal's use of the word 'troll', and clearly so did the OP to whom Ferminal referred with his comment to me. That was it, and that was the end of it. No bad feelings anywhere.

Froomers then got slightly caught up in his knickers about a mod using the term, 'troll'. The quoted text you thought Froome had addressed to you, was addressed to Ferminal earlier. This wasn't even a storm in a teacup, this was a shot glass. Nothing to see here.

 

[The Hitch]

Let me just clear up this complete misunderstanding. Froome's original comment was directed at a post of Ferminal's yesterday, which was directed at me. I understood Ferminal's use of the word 'troll', and clearly so did the OP to whom Ferminal referred with his comment to me. That was it, and that was the end of it. No bad feelings anywhere.

Froomers then got slightly caught up in his knickers about a mod using the term, 'troll'. The quoted text you thought Froome had addressed to you, was addressed to Ferminal earlier. This wasn't even a storm in a teacup, this was a shot glass. Nothing to see here.

You mean ferryman

 

[ferryman]

You mean ferryman

Aye, I think he does for part of it, but I wasn't suggesting HE was trolling (For the others who are aghast that a Mod could possibly have an opinion to post on this, or indeed anything, you have that well used complain button that you can press.). Or you can post your complain on the Mods thread.

 

[Amsterhammer]

You mean ferryman

Thanks for pointing that out, Hitch. As has been well established in the past, your memory is better than mine. I duly sit corrected.

My sincere apologies to Ferminal. There shouldn't be two mods both starting with 'F'.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Aye, I think he does for part of it, but I wasn't suggesting HE was trolling (For the others who are aghast that a Mod could possibly have an opinion to post on this, or indeed anything, you have that well used complain button that you can press.). Or you can post your complain on the Mods thread.

We were writing at the same moment....

 

[Ferminal]

Inflation in the years before her was running in double figures (up to numbers like 25% a year). The IMF was called in to finance that inflation gap.

The mid-70s look similar in many countries, that things turned around in the 80s into the decent 20 year run was not down to one politician.

 

[Galic Ho]

Working-class people being bitter about what one of their worst enemies in recent history did? Who woulda thunk?

Do you live in Spain or England?

Because with Spain's recent history, your perspective rings with bias. What a number of current administrations in key Eurozone nations have allowed to transpire the last decade is far more damaging than anything Thatcher did. Actually what the current British leaders have allowed to happen makes her look like a saint.

Free tip. If your country is bust, any denigrating remarks are simply hollow and deflecting from your own mess.

Not being personal or nasty, just saying when you rip your own pollies a new one, feel free then to have a crack at the foreigners.

Also the Dutch people having a go! Oh it's golden. Next World War your continent starts...well you might find yourselves alone. European politics sure do love to have the socialists claiming they know best. BTW guys, no offense meant towards the Netherlands, but what exactly has your country done for European politics other than appoint The Hague as some kind of focal point for political attention in the Eurozone? Always the little countries trying to act like they're big. Face it, Thatcher was bigger than your nations and political parties every were. Hate on guys because that is all those people will leave you with.

Think I am wrong? Do you support the Euro or not? Because if you do, then you need to rethink disgust towards Thatcher because your ideology is in conflict. The two ideals are not in congruence in the full scope and scheme of things.

 

[Galic Ho]

Thatcher was a big fan of the NHS, she increased taxes to the point where taxes were a higher percentage of GDP when she left than when she arrived, she was a strong proponent of doing something to address global warming (she was a chemist after all, and unlike so many on the right, actually understood the science), and she supported gun control. Like Reagan, if today's "conservatives" actually knew her beliefs and policies and not simply the distorted myth, she'd be absolutely reviled by the right.

Bahahaha. Climate change. The psuedo intellectual's claim for change.

What is the science champ?

There is no proper science supporting it. Just academics looking for their latest grant and political bodies looking to hold onto power. Latest talk from the wannabe preaching crowd is that they messed up. You sound like you're easy to con and rip off. I can understand why you're here on this forum then...you fell for LA big time right? And you're from DC...say no more. Say no more. Democrat right?

 

[Galic Ho]

What a sad day. Dislike or like her politics, you can not take away the fact that she had an enormous influence on the world we are living in today and where women are in society. She epitomised feminism more than most self-proclaimed feminists. This is due to the fact that she took feminism from what many feminists held it as a socially left-wing ideology to a far broader sense. She is an inspiration to someone like myself and is one of the most influential politicians of the 20th century. Many of the things she said back in her term as PM ring true today. She is rightfully and idol of conservatism, individual liberty and free markets. Most importantly, she had conviction.

Goodbye Margaret Thatcher

You've said before you're a dude.

Others have said time and again you're female.

This post makes me think the later is true. Well at a minimum it has a degree of intrigue given your tone. An element of suspicion.

So are you female?

 

[Galic Ho]

She was the most unpopular leader of the country ever, and trailing in the polls iirc. A convenient if largely pointless war saved her, and enabled her to win the elections the following year.

Agree that it's pointless to compare her to the US context in any way.

Unpopular leaders in nations like the UK do not win back to back elections. Ever. Least of all during the Cold War.

Try Gordon Brown. That man is hated. Cameron right now is not very popular. Neither was Blair. All are less popular than Thatcher. You're just skewing historical perspective with bias. I'd like the German opinion now...the Dutch one is all too obvious.

 

[rhubroma]

Unpopular leaders in nations like the UK do not win back to back elections. Ever. Least of all during the Cold War.

Try Gordon Brown. That man is hated. Cameron right now is not very popular. Neither was Blair. All are less popular than Thatcher. You're just skewing historical perspective with bias. I'd like the German opinion now...the Dutch one is all too obvious.

In all fairness I think Amster was pointing out the level of polarization and hatred Thatcher generated. That she was, on the other hand, loved by others with equal passion has no bearing on the former and merely demonstrates that a liberal right, that's not really liberal, is merely loathsome to the left. Italy's Berlusconi is another case in point chap.

 

[Galic Ho]

Thatcher was very much a supporter of Apartheid. The ANC were a terrorist organisation, when the rest of the world was putting sanctions against RSA in the 80's Thatcher refused, working with the minority white government instead.

She only publicly softened her stance when public opinion started to build momentum, culminating in a fairly huge concert at Wembley Stadium in 1988. The tide had turned, and certainly in Britain there was no way she could any longer publicly support the minority government.

What was interesting is even prior to the concert a motion was filed in the commons by 24 Tory MP's slamming the BBC (Who broadcast the concert) for giving "publicity to a movement that encourages the African National Congress in its terrorist activities" - Yes, that was Thatchers government, a government that when the world is crying out for the release of Nelson Mandela, actively criticizes the BBC for broadcasting such a concert.

Flash forward 20 years after the end of apartheid and what is happening in South Africa? Country is a basket case. Black on black racial crime everywhere.

You need to look up moral relativism. It is applicable here. Majority were wrong and ALL South Africans are now paying for it. Will the nation ever recover? Not likely. Oh but we get to say we're not racist! Yippee!

Another group of people messing about in the affairs of others. Meddling has done almost no good in 20th Century politics. It's caused more trouble than it has helped. If Thatcher's stance was popular, the Saffer's wouldn't be imigrating to the land Down Under all the time and a rapist wouldn't be the president in their nation. But hey, that's what you get when you elect terrorists. Ask the Irish commenting here. Their Sinn Fein leader is lucky he never had a bullet put in his skull by Thatcher because it was more than warranted.

So yeah, think about that. Murderers and those who would use terror are now running the show in corners of the so called civilised world. But damn Thatcher to hell for some unpleasantries but an economy that is the second strongest in Europe.

I also read about a housing crisis in the UK? STOP THE IMMIGRANTS. Duh. Sydney has the SAME PROBLEM. It's simple supply versus demand only in the UK and USA the national mortgage repayment equates to 16 and 17% of total income. Come to Australia. Our economy is still strong, idiot govt, but our mortgage repayments are 32-33% of the average income. Add in UK govt subsidies are extravagent and exorbitant...yeah, the UK really suck to live in. Tell that to all the Romanians heading there soon.

Supply vs demand. If new land is not released and thus new properties hitting the market do not match raising population figures, the demand increases. Thus cost goes up. Most housing is over inflated and the market needs to take a dive. Fact. BTW housing in the UK is better than it is here. But I do digress. A generation will be unable to afford a home in many nations. Thatcher is not to blame for that. Small cog in a much larger mechanism that bears the brunt of the blame.

 

[Galic Ho]

In all fairness I think Amster was pointing out the level of polarization and hatred Thatcher generated. That she was, on the other hand, loved by others with equal passion has no bearing on the former and merely demonstrates that a liberal right, that's not really liberal, is merely loathsome to the left. Italy's Berlusconi is another case in point chap.

I get that. Make no mistake I am not saying I liked her policies. Destroying primary industries IMO is a big no no. But in the grander scheme of things, she is not the worst Prime Minister in the UK's history. I used Brown as an example. Horrible Chancellor of the Exchequer under Blair, even worse when he was PM.

Don't get me started on Berlusconi. Richest man in nation becomes PM! It's beyond a joke. Owns largest footie club PLUS biggest telco. Separation of duties anyone? But because of his penchant for good looking young women and bunga bunga parties...hey, Silvio is da man! Nah, he's a creep. Don't even get me started on the last two Prime Ministers of Australia. What they've done is a new low for their political party. Even the die hard life long voters don't make excuses for them anymore. Don't be thinking I won't sink the boot into my own countrymen. I dislike them more than any group around because their actions DIRECTLY affect me.

But I was simply trying to convey that. Asking liberals and conservatives to see the strong points of both sides? I've never seen it happen. Take the NBN in Australia and rolling out fibre optics. Opposition is opposed to the cost BUT mistakenly argues that tech wise wireless is what should be the norm. That's a blatant idiotic stance. One taken from lack of info that is accurate and relevant and a simple psychological political trait of taking the opposite opinion is a sign of truth. It isn't always the case.

 

[gooner]

Do you live in Spain or England?

Because with Spain's recent history, your perspective rings with bias. What a number of current administrations in key Eurozone nations have allowed to transpire the last decade is far more damaging than anything Thatcher did. Actually what the current British leaders have allowed to happen makes her look like a saint.

Free tip. If your country is bust, any denigrating remarks are simply hollow and deflecting from your own mess.

Not being personal or nasty, just saying when you rip your own pollies a new one, feel free then to have a crack at the foreigners.

Also the Dutch people having a go! Oh it's golden. Next World War your continent starts...well you might find yourselves alone. European politics sure do love to have the socialists claiming they know best. BTW guys, no offense meant towards the Netherlands, but what exactly has your country done for European politics other than appoint The Hague as some kind of focal point for political attention in the Eurozone? Always the little countries trying to act like they're big. Face it, Thatcher was bigger than your nations and political parties every were. Hate on guys because that is all those people will leave you with.

Think I am wrong? Do you support the Euro or not? Because if you do, then you need to rethink disgust towards Thatcher because your ideology is in conflict. The two ideals are not in congruence in the full scope and scheme of things.

To suggest you can't have an opinion on all this because someone's own country's economy(including here in Ireland) is struggling is frankly absurd. I admit the political system is broken here and the party whip system is one of the biggest farces that we have to overcome as it doesn't allow for any independent thinking in the Dail(parliament). And the failure in regulation banks has practically brought the country to it's kness with the bank guarantee tying the banks debts to the sovereign one and the property bubble crashing even though many high profile economists like David McWilliams forseen and warned about it beforehand. All this has led to 14% of unemployment and that is only after huge numbers have left the country. You think I would vote for Kenny and especially Gilmore's Labour party who are just puppets to prop up Kenny's Fine Gael majority. No chance. Take Gilmore with his BS promise of not cutting third level education grants which earned Labour a lot of votes from the younger generation only to flip-flop and backtrack on it on their arrival into government. What makes this situation all the more gaulling is that Micheal Martin and his Fianna Fail party in opposition(the same guys who are responsible for bringing the IMF here) are now the ones who think they are the bees kness in all this with their opposition to some of the austerity even though they were doing the same in the last couple of years of the previous government they were in. And I could go on and talk about Michael Lowry and the Moriarty Tribunal but I would be here all day so it's best to leave it at that.

And for all their faults I still wouldn't put them in Thatcher's territory one bit. Not even Cowan himself who I don't have the time of the day for either. Unless of course they were friends with Pinochet(I am sure she enjoyed a nice cup of tea with him at Downing Street), supporting the Khmer Rouge and calling Mandela a terrorist.

To finish off I'm sure people in Spain acknowledge the faults of their country at present as well but they are entitled to their opinion on Thatcher as much as me and you or anyone else as of now.

 

[Echoes]

Yes she did. But not out of Ulster, Northern Ireland. Don't forget 3 counties in Ulster belong to the Republic. It is always used to rile me when Paisley used to refer to the term Ulster as if the whole territory was a recognised part of Northern Ireland. Furthermore on Thatcher she also talked about the possibility to change the border in the North and have a straight line drawn across separating it with the South so as to defend it better. Talk about ideas to make matters worse.

Shame on me. I didn't know it. Thanks for the correction and I won't make the same mistake again.

And yeah, she was insane ...

The last great punk band.

Oxymoron !

Think I am wrong? Do you support the Euro or not? Because if you do, then you need to rethink disgust towards Thatcher because your ideology is in conflict. The two ideals are not in congruence in the full scope and scheme of things.

She was in Heath's government that entered the EEC.
She signed up the Single European Act 1986.
Her successor signed up the Maastricht Treaty.

She was not that Eurosceptic. The Euro currency is not everything.

 

[Captain Sensible]

The mid-70s look similar in many countries, that things turned around in the 80s into the decent 20 year run was not down to one politician.

Depends on where you live and what type of job and if you had the qualifications to be able to better yourself .
Yes for some people it turned around but for others they have never recovered for her polices.

 

[Captain Sensible]

Unpopular leaders in nations like the UK do not win back to back elections. Ever. Least of all during the Cold War.

Try Gordon Brown. That man is hated. Cameron right now is not very popular. Neither was Blair. All are less popular than Thatcher. You're just skewing historical perspective with bias. I'd like the German opinion now...the Dutch one is all too obvious.

Right some will say she got a lot of women voting for her for her first victory plus she was in the right party at the right time some might also say.

She used the Falklands war victory to gain her second victory some will say .

If you think Brown is hated any where near that she is you are mistaken .maybe in the south and those that made money out of her polices see it a different way and that its fine that a lot suffered so a few did very well.

 

[LugHugger]

Right some will say she got a lot of women voting for her for her first victory plus she was in the right party at the right time some might also say.

She used the Falklands war victory to gain her second victory some will say .

If you think Brown is hated any where near that she is you are mistaken .maybe in the south and those that made money out of her polices see it a different way and that its fine that a lot suffered so a few did very well.

Off topic, Captain, is that one of Duncan's graphics?