The Iron Lady has passed away

[King Boonen]

Unpopular leaders in nations like the UK do not win back to back elections. Ever. Least of all during the Cold War.

Try Gordon Brown. That man is hated. Cameron right now is not very popular. Neither was Blair. All are less popular than Thatcher. You're just skewing historical perspective with bias. I'd like the German opinion now...the Dutch one is all too obvious.

Blair won as many elections as Thatcher, well done contradicting yourself.

You also seem to be conflating UK politics with other nations. We don't vote for our Prime Minister, we vote for local MP's and the leader on the party with the most MP's becomes Prime Minister. It is perfectly possible for people to vote for a party without liking the leader or some general policies if you particularly like your local MP.

you would also need an intricate knowledge of when elections were, how easy it was for all voters to attend polling stations, where constituency borders were at the time, I believe there has been a significant amount of gerrymandering my all leaders since then, and how strong the opposition were.

I'm making an assumption you don't know this, correct?

 

[Ferminal]

Blair won as many elections as Thatcher, well done contradicting yourself.

You also seem to be conflating UK politics with other nations. We don't vote for our Prime Minister, we vote for local MP's and the leader on the party with the most MP's becomes Prime Minister. It is perfectly possible for people to vote for a party without liking the leader or some general policies if you particularly like your local MP.

you would also need an intricate knowledge of when elections were, how easy it was for all voters to attend polling stations, where constituency borders were at the time, I believe there has been a significant amount of gerrymandering my all leaders since then, and how strong the opposition were.

I'm making an assumption you don't know this, correct?

Also FPTP in a multi-party system?

 

[ebandit]

?

So are you female?

would it make a difference? maggie was reported as having more balls than her cabinet

easy to talk tough when your not at the sharp end

today i read............'maggie more popular than churchill in opinion poll'
she would probably win 'most unpopular politician ever poll' too

that sums up the divisive nature of her politics never 'one nation'

in uk politics election is won with a small overall % of possible vote
............easily won over with inducements

Mark L

 

[hrotha]

Do you live in Spain or England?

Because with Spain's recent history, your perspective rings with bias. What a number of current administrations in key Eurozone nations have allowed to transpire the last decade is far more damaging than anything Thatcher did. Actually what the current British leaders have allowed to happen makes her look like a saint.

Free tip. If your country is bust, any denigrating remarks are simply hollow and deflecting from your own mess.

Not being personal or nasty, just saying when you rip your own pollies a new one, feel free then to have a crack at the foreigners.

This is absurd. What makes you think I'm a-OK with Spanish politicians? Also, I'm talking about enemies of the working class, not about enemies of the Spanish working class, because it's silly to think of this in national terms. This is a supranational phenomenon.

Thatcher paved the way.

 

[RedheadDane]

Eeeh... I... sorta thought she'd died a while ago...
Yes! I'm just that stupid!

 

[rhubroma]

Macabre humor is always unbecoming, but the closing salutation of Ken Loach to Mrs. Thatcher - "privatize her funeral" - is an excellent jibe. Loach, one knows, is communist and the post-ideological measured commentators of late will have a merry time attributing Loache's words to the rancor of the defeated faction. Yet it's enough to re-watch some of his films (and for that matter much British cinema of the last 20 years, beginning with "Brassed Off," called "Thanks’ Mrs. Thatcher" in other languages, by Mark Herman) to understand that Thatcherism was a social tragedy. It destroyed work and earnings, crushed entire communities of people reducing them to used parts to dismantle (or, in the words of Ian McEwan, she was "determined to place a monetary value on human beings"), humiliated factory workers and miners, cancelled the very idea that he that work has negotiating power, has a voice in the matter, the right to defend himself. The diffuse, embarrassing (embarrassing in so far as joyful) popular manifestations celebrating the Iron Lady's death aren't merely explainable in terms of factious politics. In regards to "modernity," taken as economic liberalism has understood it, there has been an extremely high human price to pay - human, way before political. Thatcher didn't defeat the left or the union leaders, she defeated the salaried working class. Her celebrated anti-labor jibes ("socialism renders the poor poorer," for example) bounces back perfectly toward her: she rendered the poor, poorer. And she wasn't even a socialist.

 

[sublimit]

She viewed the ANC as typical terrorist organisation.

Her policies clearly terrible particularly her part destruction of manufacturing in Britain, but that stuff with the ANC and Mandela was always a game changer for me. She's a piece of scum hence the Daily Mail being all over her as their big hero.

 

[Amsterhammer]

Do you live in Spain or England?

Because with Spain's recent history, your perspective rings with bias. What a number of current administrations in key Eurozone nations have allowed to transpire the last decade is far more damaging than anything Thatcher did. Actually what the current British leaders have allowed to happen makes her look like a saint.

Free tip. If your country is bust, any denigrating remarks are simply hollow and deflecting from your own mess.

Not being personal or nasty, just saying when you rip your own pollies a new one, feel free then to have a crack at the foreigners.

Also the Dutch people having a go! Oh it's golden. Next World War your continent starts...well you might find yourselves alone. European politics sure do love to have the socialists claiming they know best. BTW guys, no offense meant towards the Netherlands, but what exactly has your country done for European politics other than appoint The Hague as some kind of focal point for political attention in the Eurozone? Always the little countries trying to act like they're big. Face it, Thatcher was bigger than your nations and political parties every were. Hate on guys because that is all those people will leave you with.

Think I am wrong? Do you support the Euro or not? Because if you do, then you need to rethink disgust towards Thatcher because your ideology is in conflict. The two ideals are not in congruence in the full scope and scheme of things.

Dude, WTF?

Seriously, what is your purpose with this ranting, semi-comprehensible, diatribe of generalized non sequiturs? If you want to debate the bankruptcy of today's Europe and drag Ozzie mortgages into the conversation, I suggest you move to the politics topic where, no doubt, many will be happy to disabuse you of some of your more bizarre misconceptions.

You're seriously suggesting that the Spanish, Italians, or posters from "little countries", shouldn't express their distaste for Thatcher and her legacy because things may not be all hunky dory in their own countries? While you, apparently writing from Oz, are entitled to an opinion?

FYI, wise guy, I am not Dutch, and the only other opinion expressed here by a Dutchman has been pro-Thatcher. I am an American who lived in Britain from 1968-1987. My personal critique of Thatcherism is therefore based on my direct personal experience, and on what I saw taking place all around me. What's your as s-kissing from the other side of the world based on? Did you live in Britain during her reign, are you an emigre from the UK, or just an opinionated Ozzie with a misleading handle and a big mouth?

As someone who sounds like one of ACF's political ilk, it's surprising that you don't even know his gender, considering how long you've been around here.

edit - Of course, anyone is entitled to an opinion about her place in history. I (and others) have been speaking specifically to the degree of social polarization she caused in Britain as a whole, but most dramatically in Scotland, Ireland, and the north of England. I would suggest that no one who did not experience the deep divisions and wounds she created in the fabric of British society first hand, can understand the bottomless loathing that so many, including me, feel for this woman. I have tried to explain this feeling to many Americans thus - you know how much you dislike Obama/Dubya? Triple that feeling, and then imagine carrying it around for the best part of 40 years. That'll give you some idea of why Thatcher is so widely and deeply hated by so many.

 

[Archieboy]

Amster calm down, all this stress is bad for the ticker.
You got the jelly and icecream ready fella.

By the way how are you these days??

 

[Amsterhammer]

Amster calm down, all this stress is bad for the ticker.
You got the jelly and icecream ready fella.

By the way how are you these days??

Hey Archie!

Nah, I won't be partying at her funeral, that's not my style. I already shared beers and happy toasts with one of my Hammer mates here and with a Scotsman. They were both well chuffed.

I keep meaning to come and say hello over there.....otherwise, I'm good. Great point at Anfield.

 

[del1962]

Thatcher was fortunate in her worse enemies

Scargill
Livingstone
The IRA
Galtieri
Hatton
Foot

Some of whom ripped apart the Labour Party, the irony is that so much of the mindset that celebrates now is the same as that which created the longest suicide note in history. Between them and Thatcher so much of Britain#s manufacturing base was destroyed.

 

[Archieboy]

Excellent point.
Last time we won up there The Beatles were no1 with She Loves You and Hurst & Peters scored the goals. Great days.

Good news about the OS to, cant wait. New ground with a moat around it. Wonder if the mickies can swim??

 

[phanatic]

Why would they rejoice at her death 25 years after leaving office? Seems pointless. If this is the new sic semper tyrannis, they will always have tyrants. Bravo, Maggie Thatcher, as victorious in her passing as she was in life.

 

[horsinabout]

=Amsterhammer;1196237]
Nah, I won't be partying at her funeral, that's not my style. I already shared beers and happy toasts with one of my Hammer mates here and with a Scotsman. They were both well chuffed

You are male arn't you? Only a man could muster that much hatred for a women and turn it so personal.

 

[Amsterhammer]

You are male arn't you? Only a man could muster that much hatred for a women and turn it so personal. Must be a form of self loathing.

You still here? I thought you'd been unmasked as a sockpuppet. I must have got that wrong. You're female, aren't you? Only a womAn could turn this into something sexist. Nope, no self loathing, glad to be a man, and perfectly at peace with my feelings towards Thatcher. What's your excuse for commenting on me instead of on Thatcher's passing?

 

[horsinabout]

You still here? I thought you'd been unmasked as a sockpuppet. I must have got that wrong. You're female, aren't you? Only a womAn could turn this into something sexist. Nope, no self loathing, glad to be a man, and perfectly at peace with my feelings towards Thatcher. What's your excuse for commenting on me instead of on Thatcher's passing?

Forget the self loathing bit I deleted that, appologies. Your critique of Mrs T is one of hatred, rather than any analysis on her personality and politics. She was a politician at the end of the day, voted by people who supported what she was doing. i.e. self actualising a nation.

The sexist thing is a redherring as is the sockpuppet. Boring!

 

[Amsterhammer]

Forget the self loathing bit I deleted that, appologies. Your critique of Mrs T is one of hatred, rather than any analysis on her personality and politics. She was a politician at the end of the day, voted by people who supported what she was doing. i.e. self actualising a nation.

The sexist thing is a redherring as is the sockpuppet. Boring!

So, you are a woman, yes? Not that gender has anything to do with it. You will find any number of women in the UK who share my view. Are you a Brit? Do you live in the UK? Were you alive and adult during her years in power? If not, you can simply have no idea about how divisive she was, and how much hatred and loathing her policies engendered.

What does "self actualising" mean?

As I have pointed out previously, she won her first election by default because the Labour Party had made a complete hash of governing, and had become deeply unpopular. She won her second election in a landslide not because her policies met with widespread approval, but because she had just 'won' a war after kicking some Argie **** on the other side of the world, in good old-fashioned imperialist style. Your average voter, spurred on by the Sun's famous "Gotcha" mentality, loves that kind of stuff. The pre-Falklands polls showed her to be on the way out. The post-Falklands election gave her a massive, historic, majority. She effectively 'lost' the 87 election, but held onto power because the 83 majority had been so huge.

 

[del1962]

So, you are a woman, yes? Not that gender has anything to do with it. You will find any number of women in the UK who share my view. Are you a Brit? Do you live in the UK? Were you alive and adult during her years in power? If not, you can simply have no idea about how divisive she was, and how much hatred and loathing her policies engendered.

What does "self actualising" mean?

As I have pointed out previously, she won her first election by default because the Labour Party had made a complete hash of governing, and had become deeply unpopular. She won her second election in a landslide not because her policies met with widespread approval, but because she had just 'won' a war after kicking some Argie **** on the other side of the world, in good old-fashioned imperialist style. Your average voter, spurred on by the Sun's famous "Gotcha" mentality, loves that kind of stuff. The pre-Falklands polls showed her to be on the way out. The post-Falklands election gave her a massive, historic, majority. She effectively 'lost' the 87 election, but held onto power because the 83 majority had been so huge.

Some of this is partly corrected, but in 1983 the opposition was split and the labour party had made themselves unelectable.

She did not effectively lose in 87 (the tory vote was around the same as 83), she won it by tax cuts that benefitted a large proportion of the population. Part of the boom / bust cycle that came back to haunt in the early 1990s.

 

[aphronesis]

A couple of basis summaries of Thatcher's policies and decisions for those too young or otherwise unaware

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2009/apr/11/germaine-greer-margaret-thatcher-anniversary

Dutiful, yet engaged, survey of the literature on Thatcher by a graduate student

http://www.newleftproject.org/index...f_a_class_warrior_margaret_thatcher_1925_2013

For those unclear on how Thatcher was received by many in Ireland, there's this film from 5 or so years ago by artist Steve McQueen

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2008/oct/12/2

Self-actualising a nation is a dubious claim.

 

[horsinabout]

Self-actualising a nation is a dubious claim.

Yes and a dubious act too. Remember promoting individualism, no such thing as society, just individual aspiration.

 

[aphronesis]

Yes and a dubious act too. Remember promoting individualism, no such thing as society, just individual aspiration.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/picture.php?albumid=272&pictureid=1241

Right, all those cliches and their conflicted outcomes are discussed in the links I put up.

 

[horsinabout]

What does "self actualising" mean?

.

I believe it means - to reach ones full potential. However, as you have pointed out in your critique not everyone was included!

Her own colleagues hated her too.

 

[TheGame]

I also read about a housing crisis in the UK? STOP THE IMMIGRANTS.

Its got a hell of a lot more to do with Thatcher selling off all the council houses in the eighties than immigration.

 

[rhubroma]

Its got a hell of a lot more to do with Thatcher selling off all the council houses in the eighties than immigration.

It has never occurred to him that immigration is phenomenon largely associated with opportunity. Ironically our system, that is Thatcher's, has advanced precipitous flight. While who is to supply the cheap labor demand liberalism requires? The barbarian hoards have always been advancing, though it hasn’t ever occurred to conservatives that they have in fact sent a cordial invitation. On the other hand, diversity provides the very lymph that any vibrant and hence progressive society needs, which regenerates rather than extinguishes.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

It has never occurred to him that immigration is phenomenon largely associated with opportunity. Ironically our system, that is Thatcher's, has advanced precipitous flight. While who is to supply the cheap labor demand liberalism requires? The barbarian hoards have always been advancing, though it hasn’t ever occurred to conservatives that they have in fact sent a cordial invitation. On the other hand, diversity provides the very lymph that any vibrant and hence progressive society needs, which regenerates rather than extinguishes.

Not to sound homoerotic or anything ...professore,i love most of your post.