Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[Red Rick]

I was mostly looking at the past 20 years, and if you then look at the opposition, as well as how those riders did the rest of the season you know that the field just isn't as impressive as is the case for De Ronde, Roubaix and Liege.

Laughs in Mozzato

 

[Cassirer]

Then on the GT vs One day races / Classics vs CX/MTB and Pog vs MVDP. Surely there is no clear cut answer. It all comes down to what you value the highest. I fail to see why GT wins are so highly appreciated but just lets say that a GT should be valued 2x a win in a one day race and 4x a WC win in CX etc well then Pog is clearly the best rider of this generation but it comes down to focus and genes.

Because of the tours importance fame-/moneywise I think that everyone who has the ability will try to be successful in GTs and otherwise, although that sounds a bit harsh, has to settle for whatever else there is. I think that if mvdp or wout were sure they could be competitive in the tour, they would make the switch, it's just that they are not and therefore they can't risk their success in the classics. That's my take in a super old debate at least, could of course be completely wrong and the world champion driving his lamborghini pities the suffering near-anorexic existence of a GT rider who needs to work weeks instead of days for his wins.

 

[saunaking]

Only weak winner is Zaug (who’s one of the weakest of any monument winner list) but that list is comparable to RVV and PR list of winners. Those had weak editions/winners as well the 10 years before MVDP. GDL list is made of riders who challenged in monuments and grand tours with some getting multiple podiums

If there was a cycling hall of fame, only Nibali would be a no-brainer

 

[Keldergoat]

Indeed, that's also clear when you look at the list of winners there in the past

If you look at the list posted by saunaking, how can you judge that as a 'weak' list? Nibali, Quim Rodriguez, Dan Martin, Pinot, Mollema, Fuglsang, they were all top riders in those years they won the race. But a Flanders also has a Bettiol on the list.

 

[saunaking]

If you look at the list posted by saunaking, how can you judge that as a 'weak' list? Nibali, Quim Rodriguez, Dan Martin, Pinot, Mollema, Fuglsang, they were all top riders in those years they won the race. But a Flanders also has a Bettiol on the list.

Yeah, but most dont stand the test of time as 'greats'. Also the 1st 4 monuments are mega targets, guys just show up at lombardia depending on their schedule that year. Its basically Italian San Sebastian

 

[Keldergoat]

But if you look at the same era for LBL you got guys like Gerrans, Iglinski, Jungels and Poels. I'd reckon that maybe even more under par than Lombardia.

 

[proffate]

But if you look at the same era for LBL you got guys like Gerrans, Iglinski, Jungels and Poels. I'd reckon that maybe even more under par than Lombardia.

I don't remember any rider ever stating in January that their main target of the year was lombardia. It's more of a "I'll show up with whatever fitness I've got" or "I missed my main target due to injury" type of deal.

And to go beyond the Lombardia debate, all of the climbing monuments/one days are less important to the best climbers than the flatter/cobbled classics are to the best Flandriens. Because Liege etc compete with GTs for the attention of climbers. For example Vingegaard doesn't bother with Liege although I have no doubt he would do pretty well. That diminishes Liege somewhat. This is also why you see the GT also-rans like Pinot, Mollema winning Lombardia. Liege at least has the draw that it's near the other Ardennes races so more climbers target that part of the calendar for a peak.

(That said, unfortunately this year a lot of the best Flandriens were injured so we didn't get any epic battle. Ish happens.)

 

[Barkintheeye]

I don't remember any rider ever stating in January that their main target of the year was lombardia. It's more of a "I'll show up with whatever fitness I've got" or "I missed my main target due to injury" type of deal.

And to go beyond the Lombardia debate, all of the climbing monuments/one days are less important to the best climbers than the flatter/cobbled classics are to the best Flandriens. Because Liege etc compete with GTs for the attention of climbers. For example Vingegaard doesn't bother with Liege although I have no doubt he would do pretty well. That diminishes Liege somewhat. This is also why you see the GT also-rans like Pinot, Mollema winning Lombardia. Liege at least has the draw that it's near the other Ardennes races so more climbers target that part of the calendar for a peak.

(That said, unfortunately this year a lot of the best Flandriens were injured so we didn't get any epic battle. Ish happens.)

Several good points there! When Pog starts crushing competition at Paris-Roubaix I’ll cave in and call him GOAT

 

[SHAD0W93]

If there was a cycling hall of fame, only Nibali would be a no-brainer

And Purito, maybe not first ballot but he’d get in.

 

[Ilmaestro99]

The beauty of monuments is that you can get an unexpected winner who used their brain rather than strength, or the favourites can lose with bad tactics. Cycling is a sport, no a fitness test.

However at the same time these races are 250km+ and hard, so everybody good enough to compete for the win in the final has to be exceptionally strong before tactics come into play.

I don't think a colourful list of previous winners loses a race prestige. Coilek beat cancellara and sagan , Gerrans did the same and mugged valverde/Dan martin in Liege. Hayman out sprinted Boonen. These guys didn't decrease the prestige of races, they improved massively their own legacy.

 

[Red Rick]

But if you look at the same era for LBL you got guys like Gerrans, Iglinski, Jungels and Poels. I'd reckon that maybe even more under par than Lombardia.

If you look purely by riders palmares I'm pretty sure Lombardia has among the fewest fluke winners.

The difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg, or the difference between a guy like Dylan van Baarle and Simon Gerrans IMO just shows the insane bias that cycling fans have for the cobbled classics over Liege and Lombardia. If a guy flukes a cobbled monument he was post hoc always a worthy classics winner. Fluke Liege or Lombardia and you're still just a fluke. Hell even if you win Sanremo you can be considered a bad Liege winner apparently.

 

[proffate]

difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg

What difference in discourse? I don't see any one poster stating Hayman is worthy and Zaugg is not.

Also to me personally, cult winners like Nibali and Gerrans are legends and can't be considered flukes like Ciolek can. But even a fluke is memorable and the fact that MVDP has to contend with two dozen riders trying to be a fluke, in addition to other favorites, just adds to the mystique of road racing. Ball sports players don't have so many opponents to keep an eye on.

Lombardia stands out as being the monument where the winner is almost never the best rider for that sort of terrain in that cycling season, at least pre-pog era.

 

[Red Rick]

What difference in discourse? I don't see any one poster stating Hayman is worthy and Zaugg is not.

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

 

[staubsauger]

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

Y'all forgot Vladislav Bobrik!

 

[Netserk]

Hayman winning is consistently treated like an epic, wheras Zaugg winning is consistently treated like an absolute joke.

It's nearly impossible to miss

One of the races was the greatest edition of it, the other closer to the worst.

 

[Salvarani]

Gerald Ciolek denying Sagan!!

 

[Red Rick]

One of the races was the greatest edition of it, the other closer to the worst.

2011 wasn't that bad. Nibali sacrificing his chance in a murder-suicide on Gilbert only to finish like 80th. Plus most of the pre 2015 editions were just nothing before a 1 climb shootout as far as I remember, apart from the 2010 rain edition.

 

[Valv.Piti]

If you look purely by riders palmares I'm pretty sure Lombardia has among the fewest fluke winners.

The difference in discourse between riders like Matthew Hayman and Oliver Zaugg, or the difference between a guy like Dylan van Baarle and Simon Gerrans IMO just shows the insane bias that cycling fans have for the cobbled classics over Liege and Lombardia. If a guy flukes a cobbled monument he was post hoc always a worthy classics winner. Fluke Liege or Lombardia and you're still just a fluke. Hell even if you win Sanremo you can be considered a bad Liege winner apparently.

People disliked Gerrans for good reasons as he consistently did nothing to make racing better, actually quite the contrary. Zaugg was just very meh. I don't even remember the race and don't bother to look it up, whereas I watched Roubaix from km 0 as I try to do every year and it was a great, great race and beat the GOAT Roubaix-rider. That race everybody remembers, and even though you didn't feel great about the winner (I know I didn't), you still pay your respect for Hayman's ride on that particular day.

 

[Red Rick]

People disliked Gerrans for good reasons as he consistently did nothing to make racing better, actually quite the contrary. Zaugg was just very meh. I don't even remember the race and don't bother to look it up, whereas I watched Roubaix from km 0 as I try to do every year and it was a great, great race and beat the GOAT Roubaix-rider. That race everybody remembers, and even though you didn't feel great about the winner (I know I didn't), you still pay your respect for Hayman's ride on that particular day.

I know why people hated Gerrans. I did too. But many people can't seperate that from their opinion on a riders quality. Gerrans was *** good in 2014.

 

[velaso montador]

he should not race amstel to try all inn Liege since hes won both monument and just gamble on Liege even tho less likely?

Or go for Amstel dig deep and also try Liege since hes no favourite either way? Curious about the belief there but Flandern, Robauix Amster to Liege its hard to believe he will have not dipped expecially since he had to gone deep with those performances. already. If Pogacar didnt ride Liege i do believe that maby the outcome of his priorities would swap here, ofcouse have no clue just speculating.

 

[Red Rick]

he should not race amstel to try all inn Liege since hes won both monument and just gamble on Liege even tho less likely?

Or go for Amstel dig deep and also try Liege since hes no favourite either way? Curious about the belief there but Flandern, Robauix Amster to Liege its hard to believe he will have not dipped expecially since he had to gone deep with those performances. already. If Pogacar didnt ride Liege i do believe that maby the outcome of his priorities would swap here, ofcouse have no clue just speculating.

He got his main objective so he rather take a 95% shot at winning Amstel than skipping Amstel to go from 4% in Liege to 5% or whatever.

 

[Valv.Piti]

I know why people hated Gerrans. I did too. But many people can't seperate that from their opinion on a riders quality. Gerrans was *** good in 2014.

Sure he was very good in his prime, but he made Valverde look like Vinokourov lets be honest now. Its very hard to get praised when you race that negatively IMO as people will naturally focus on the *** race it was and you playing to your very boring strengths of just sitting there, doing nothing, and then sticking your nose in the wind for the first time after the last 250 m bend in Ans

 

[Red Rick]

Sure he was very good in his prime, but he made Valverde look like Vinokourov lets be honest now. Its very hard to get praised when you race that negatively IMO as people will naturally focus on the *** race it was and you playing to your very boring strengths of just sitting there, doing nothing, and then sticking your nose in the wind for the first time after the last 250 m bend in Ans

I liked Gerrans.

By which I mean I liked hating him.

He unified the forum like a reverse Jesus figure

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Gerald Ciolek denying Sagan!!

And cancellara!

 

[Blanco]

Lombardia stands out as being the monument where the winner is almost never the best rider for that sort of terrain in that cycling season, at least pre-pog era.

And who was the best rider for that sort of terrain before Pogacar?
Not Nibali?
Not Valverde? (I know, he didn't won, but he came 2nd three times)
Not Purito?
Not Gilbert?
Not Bettini?