Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[Froome]

In 5 years we will see who is the better rider overall.
But deep down even the biggest van der poel fans already know today, that pogacar is the better rider.
At one day races they are more less the same. But Pogacar is also one of the two best stage racer in the world.

How can you compare overall if van der poel just does one day races, and Pogacar just does cycling road and not mountain bike and cyclocross?

You can compare just in one day races, nothing more.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

The dilemma with the discussion is that some people put a lot of weight into CX and MTB and others are only focusing on road.

When one have the point of view that Cx/MTB is irrelevant in this section of the forum it makes sense to talk about “the best road cyclist” and “the best cyclist” as the same.

With that point of view one cannot look away from Pogacar being the best. VDP is absolutely fantastic, but is still “only” a clear second in my eyes and it’s no shame to be second to what I think is the best cyclist in the last 35 years.

 

[Spine Concept]

The dilemma with the discussion is that some people put a lot of weight into CX and MTB and others are only focusing on road.

When one have the point of view that Cx/MTB is irrelevant in this section of the forum it makes sense to talk about “the best road cyclist” and “the best cyclist” as the same.

With that point of view one cannot look away from Pogacar being the best. VDP is absolutely fantastic, but is still “only” a clear second in my eyes and it’s no shame to be second to what I think is the best cyclist in the last 35 years.

You cannot "just" ignore CX/MTB though as it obviously takes away from Mathieu focusing 100% on the road and to venture into improving in other disciplines on the road (TT's, Climbing). His schedule in the past years (especially in the last Olympic year) was insane.

If you can use the "Pogi is the best in his specialty" argument for him than you can certainly use the CX/MTB argument for Mathieu. You simply cannot ignore it. What's more, it has also "impeded" Mathieu from switching to the road earlier...

Having said the above, it's funny how "accumulated fatigue" can be an argument for Pogi but not for Mathieu.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah nah I can't give it to MvdP after he got beaten by Pogacar in de Ronde. The Worlds route was also absurdly perfect for Van der Poel, and Pogi, gassed as he was after the Tour, still got a podium.

Pogacar completely dominates the hard hilly monuments and is still top 3 in the easiest ones.

 

[Spine Concept]

At the end of the day I'm a fan of both Pogi and Mathieu because of their riding style. I'd rather watch a rider go balls to the wall and break the race open at the earliest possible moment instead of just riding defensively and waiting until the last possible moment to attack.

We should just enjoy them both and be happy that we're alive in the VdP-Pogi era.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

You cannot "just" ignore CX/MTB though as it obviously takes away from Mathieu focusing 100% on the road and to venture into improving in other disciplines on the road (TT's, Climbing). His schedule in the past years (especially in the last Olympic year) was insane.

If you can use the "Pogi is the best in his specialty" argument for him than you can certainly use the CX/MTB argument for Mathieu. You simply cannot ignore it. What's more it has also "impeded" Mathieu from switching to the road earlier...

I am a very big fan of Mathieu for what he’s doing at the road and I have no problem with ignoring the results he’s having in MTB/Cyclocross, they mean basically nothing to me as I don’t follow these sports more than “oh Mathieu won WC again, he’s such a great athlete”.

I think it’s fair to limit the discussion to road cycling on the road forum if one want that.
The important thing is that the people discussing are being clear, so you don’t end up with a discussion where people are discussing different things.

 

[Netserk]

You cannot "just" ignore CX/MTB though

I can and I will. I will also ignore what any other rider has achieved in any other sport or profession.

 

[proffate]

The debate over who is the best can only be about who is the best in one day races. Overall it's impossible to compare who is the better rider.

According to you. Other posters here are arguing about stage racing though. And even in the realm of one day races there is a variety of parcours that suit each rider differently, so it comes down to how you weight the different possible parcours.

I think it’s fair to limit the discussion to road cycling on the road forum if one want that.

Riders like MVDP, WVA, and Pidcock, plus the rise in popularity of mixed-surface events, render this forum's classification obsolete. The reality is that the people who want to exclude those other disciplines from consideration do so only because of personal preference, and not due to any objective standard. Glasgow Worlds or RVV arguably has more in common with a CX or "gravel" race than they do with a stage that finishes on the Stelvio.

 

[jmdirt]

You got more friction on the cobbles with gloves. He also rides them in the bracket, if that's what it called in English. Not on the top, but like a sprinter. And double handlebar tape.

He didn't use double tape though.

 

[Axel Hangleck]

I can and I will. I will also ignore what any other rider has achieved in any other sport or profession.

You're just the classic 'ignorant roadie'.......And sadly, there's too many here.........
Just like the F1 fans who don't watch any other series........

 

[Spine Concept]

I can and I will. I will also ignore what any other rider has achieved in any other sport or profession.

If this means that you’ll stop following sports in general and, as a result, stop posting in every sport-related forums then by all means buddy.

 

[senna6541]

I need to somehow just say no to Chris Horner's stuff. Another backhand to MVDP today when decided to lower himself and delve into CX to inform us that Piddy is a better CX bike handler in than MVDP. Is Piddy a great descender on the road, yes. Is he handy on the MTB, yes. But to say he (or anyone else for that matter) in the same stratosphere as MVDP at driving a CX bike is maybe the most asinine take in a long line of asinine takes relating to MVDP from our boy Chris.

 

[saunaking]

Pogacar has won 5 monuments to Van der Poel’s 6+Worlds, at 5 years younger, the same total number of different monuments, and has a similar number of non monument classics wins. He is probably on track to win more total monuments in his career. Or do the monuments with real climbs not matter?

Lombardia matters. But let's be honest, it matters quite a bit less.
The 10 editions before Pogcineration:

2011	Switzerland	Oliver Zaugg	Leopard Trek
2012	Spain	Joaquim Rodríguez	Team Katusha
2013	Spain	Joaquim Rodríguez	Team Katusha
2014	Ireland	Daniel Martin	Garmin–Sharp
2015	Italy	Vincenzo Nibali	Astana
2016	Colombia	Esteban Chaves	Orica–BikeExchange
2017	Italy	Vincenzo Nibali	Bahrain–Merida
2018	France	Thibaut Pinot	Groupama–FDJ
2019	Netherlands	Bauke Mollema	Trek–Segafredo
2020	Denmark	Jakob Fuglsang	Astana

 

[saunaking]

I need to somehow just say no to Chris Horner's stuff. Another backhand to MVDP today when decided to lower himself and delve into CX to inform us that Piddy is a better CX bike handler in than MVDP. Is Piddy a great descender on the road, yes. Is he handy on the MTB, yes. But to say he (or anyone else for that matter) in the same stratosphere as MVDP at driving a CX bike is maybe the most asinine take in a long line of asinine takes relating to MVDP from our boy Chris.

He's trolling mvdp fans. But i watched it too and rolled my eyes, but to be honest I think he is trying to say Pidcock is better bike handler in terms of road racing and focused a lot on his descending

 

[SHAD0W93]

Lombardia matters. But let's be honest, it matters quite a bit less.
The 10 editions before Pogcineration:

2011	Switzerland	Oliver Zaugg	Leopard Trek
2012	Spain	Joaquim Rodríguez	Team Katusha
2013	Spain	Joaquim Rodríguez	Team Katusha
2014	Ireland	Daniel Martin	Garmin–Sharp
2015	Italy	Vincenzo Nibali	Astana
2016	Colombia	Esteban Chaves	Orica–BikeExchange
2017	Italy	Vincenzo Nibali	Bahrain–Merida
2018	France	Thibaut Pinot	Groupama–FDJ
2019	Netherlands	Bauke Mollema	Trek–Segafredo
2020	Denmark	Jakob Fuglsang	Astana

Only weak winner is Zaug (who’s one of the weakest of any monument winner list) but that list is comparable to RVV and PR list of winners. Those had weak editions/winners as well the 10 years before MVDP. GDL list is made of riders who challenged in monuments and grand tours with some getting multiple podiums in them.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

but Lombardia is often more of an after thought for cyclist at the end of a season, and not a season long goal like RVV or LBL... that's the issue a bit. So you get a relative impressive startlist of climbers but like 90% are not anywhere near peak shape. So for me, while it's a monument it is not on the level of LBL or RVV

 

[Berniece]

but Lombardia is often more of an after thought for cyclist at the end of a season, and not a season long goal like RVV or LBL... that's the issue a bit. So you get a relative impressive startlist of climbers but like 90% are not anywhere near peak shape. So for me, while it's a monument it is not on the level of LBL or RVV

Indeed, that's also clear when you look at the list of winners there in the past

 

[LookProGoSlow]

He's trolling mvdp fans. But i watched it too and rolled my eyes, but to be honest I think he is trying to say Pidcock is better bike handler in terms of road racing and focused a lot on his descending

even that is questionable though. There's not enough side-by-side material to state that

 

[Blanco]

Indeed, that's also clear when you look at the list of winners there in the past

Yeah,
Pogacar, Nibali, Purito, Gilbert, Cunego, Bettini, Di Luca, Bartoli, Jalabert, Rominger, Kelly, Argentin, Hinault, Saronni, Moser, De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Merckx, Van Looy, Coppi, Bobet, Bartali,Binda, Girardengo, Pelissier.
I think when you see the list, it's pretty clear what is the level of this race.

 

[DNP-Old]

Yeah,
Pogacar, Nibali, Purito, Gilbert, Cunego, Bettini, Di Luca, Bartoli, Jalabert, Rominger, Kelly, Argentin, Hinault, Saronni, Moser, De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Merckx, Van Looy, Coppi, Bobet, Bartali,Binda, Girardengo, Pelissier.
I think when you see the list, it's pretty clear what is the level of this race.

Can’t forget about Oliver Zaugg.

 

[Blanco]

Can’t forget about Oliver Zaugg.

You'll always have some Zaugg, Vansummeren, Ciolek, etc, if the race is more than 100 years old.

 

[Berniece]

Yeah,
Pogacar, Nibali, Purito, Gilbert, Cunego, Bettini, Di Luca, Bartoli, Jalabert, Rominger, Kelly, Argentin, Hinault, Saronni, Moser, De Vlaeminck, Gimondi, Merckx, Van Looy, Coppi, Bobet, Bartali,Binda, Girardengo, Pelissier.
I think when you see the list, it's pretty clear what is the level of this race.

I was mostly looking at the past 20 years, and if you then look at the opposition, as well as how those riders did the rest of the season you know that the field just isn't as impressive as is the case for De Ronde, Roubaix and Liege.

 

[Barkintheeye]

I need to somehow just say no to Chris Horner's stuff. Another backhand to MVDP today when decided to lower himself and delve into CX to inform us that Piddy is a better CX bike handler in than MVDP. Is Piddy a great descender on the road, yes. Is he handy on the MTB, yes. But to say he (or anyone else for that matter) in the same stratosphere as MVDP at driving a CX bike is maybe the most asinine take in a long line of asinine takes relating to MVDP from our boy Chris.

That's just complete nincompoop from Horner. Yes Piddles is a great bike handler but even he is behind Van der Poel. Namur 2019 is a good example of my point.

Then on the GT vs One day races / Classics vs CX/MTB and Pog vs MVDP. Surely there is no clear cut answer. It all comes down to what you value the highest. I fail to see why GT wins are so highly appreciated but just lets say that a GT should be valued 2x a win in a one day race and 4x a WC win in CX etc well then Pog is clearly the best rider of this generation but it comes down to focus and genes.

My take on the previous generation of top riders is that Boonen and Cancellara were the best followed by Sagan, Valverde and Gilbert. I remember the GT riders but I rate them way below eg Froome, Evans, Quintana, Contador, but that's just me.

 

[Blanco]

I was mostly looking at the past 20 years, and if you then look at the opposition, as well as how those riders did the rest of the season you know that the field just isn't as impressive as is the case for De Ronde, Roubaix and Liege.

Well, I think it depends, from year to year I guess. Last year we had Pogacar, Roglic, Remco, year before Vingegaard was there too.
Some years field is weaker indeed, but mostly when the worlds isn't hilly, then we get only Vuelta climbers, those from the Tour rather take a break.
We also had a period when best climbers (Froome, Contador, Quintana), were not doing one-day races much and were not particularly good in them. In those years we maybe had slight weaker field, and maybe you're referring to that period. But even then we had Nibali, Valverde, Purito, Pinot.., and the racing was quite good.
I don't know.., for me Lombardia is "full time" monument, not lesser than other monuments.

 

[DNP-Old]

You'll always have some Zaugg, Vansummeren, Ciolek, etc, if the race is more than 100 years old.

I know, wasn’t fully serious.