Teams & Riders The "MVP" Mathieu Van der Poel Road Discussion Thread

[BlueRoads]

Of course it's pompous. That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't make sense.

But I would much rather see a versatile guy like Van der Poel go for it. But I too think they will most likely try with Philipsen and then realise that he doesn't stand a chance.

You are sure he doesn't stand a chance? I think he has a chance, although it would be difficult. But why not? What else would be the goal of the team apart from stage wins by van der Poel, for which he doesn't need that much help.
And Philipsen is fast, he's good at positioning, he has already won against Jakobsen. If some others take points from each other in the intermediate sprints or uphill finishes it could be possible. I think they would just really need to stand behind him, not take both Merlier and him, that wasn't a great recipe... Or you bring only Merlier. Just def. not both.

 

[Bolder]

I think that would be a stupid decision. With Philipsen, they have someone who is far more suited for going for green, while they would be clipping Mathieu's wings by having to keep fighting for a few points, doing peloton sprints for 8th place behind a break, or forcing himself to get over climbs not to lose points at the finish where he would otherwise not bother and just pick his day on stages that would really suit him.

I agree. I'd much rather see MvdP going for stages vs, as you say, hunting and pecking for sprint points. I find the green jersey the least (after young rider) interesting sub-competition in GTs, mostly because it can be won (has to be won, in fact) by someone who isn't a pure sprinter, whereas the polka dot etc is almost always, in the end, won by a pure climber even if they aren't GC material.

 

[tobydawq]

You are sure he doesn't stand a chance? I think he has a chance, although it would be difficult. But why not? What else would be the goal of the team apart from stage wins by van der Poel, for which he doesn't need that much help.
And Philipsen is fast, he's good at positioning, he has already won against Jakobsen. If some others take points from each other in the intermediate sprints or uphill finishes it could be possible. I think they would just really need to stand behind him, not take both Merlier and him, that wasn't a great recipe... Or you bring only Merlier. Just def. not both.

Against normal opposition, he would, but Van Aert can potentially go top 10 on every stage of the race. But it's true that with the level Philipsen demonstrated this fall, he shouldn't be discounted.

I guess my antipathy against choosing him also stems from the fact that a battle between Mathieu and Wout for the green jersey would probably be one of the things I would like to see the most in cycling.

And I don't think it hurts a rider to go for green. Sagan wasn't exactly Mr Anonymous in his first many Tour participations, so now I wonder how he would have done if he hadn't "had his wings clipped" from going for green.

 

[Boes]

Is it just me, or does Roodhooft actually want the WVA vs MVP fued in the media?
WVA states he's going for green, 3 days later Roodhooft claims MVP might be going for green.

On topic: If Phillipsen is going to the tour, it makes sense to use him to go for green and mass sprints.

• Phillipsen and MVP would only get in each others way taking away points from each other for the green jersey.
• MVP is yet to demonstrate good positioning in a mass sprint. Although admittedly he has the insane biking skills to do so, but seems to be risk averse.
• Let's not forget they actually have one of the fastests sprinters in the peleton with Merlier. If both MVP en Phillipsen are going, I don't think Merlier will do the tour. If only Merlier couldn't actually get over a few mountains, then he'd be hard to beat for green.

 

[tobydawq]

Is it just me, or does Roodhooft actually want the WVA vs MVP fued in the media?
WVA states he's going for green, 3 days later Roodhooft claims MVP might be going for green.

On topic: If Phillipsen is going to the tour, it makes sense to use him to go for green and mass sprints.

• Phillipsen and MVP would only get in each others way taking away points from each other for the green jersey.
• MVP is yet to demonstrate good positioning in a mass sprint. Although admittedly he has the insane biking skills to do so, but seems to be risk averse.
• Let's not forget they actually have one of the fastests sprinters in the peleton with Merlier. If both MVP en Phillipsen are going, I don't think Merlier will do the tour. If only Merlier couldn't actually get over a few mountains, then he'd be hard to beat for green.

Maybe they can petition for a team points competition to be implemented in the race.

 

[stonerider]

If WVA is really going for the green jersey and not held back by his team doing domestique work, MVDP doesn't stand a chance. I'm a huge MVDP fan but a 3 week race fighting for points everyday is not his strong suite. He fought so hard to win the yellow jersey and to hold onto it for a week that it left him weakened for the Olympic MTB race. He is not an endurance animal like Wout and he will break down over a 3 week Grand Tour.

 

[limak_]

He fought so hard to win the yellow jersey and to hold onto it for a week that it left him weakened for the Olympic MTB race.

On what do you base your opinion Tour has weakened him for the Olympics?

 

[tobydawq]

If WVA is really going for the green jersey and not held back by his team doing domestique work, MVDP doesn't stand a chance. I'm a huge MVDP fan but a 3 week race fighting for points everyday is not his strong suite. He fought so hard to win the yellow jersey and to hold onto it for a week that it left him weakened for the Olympic MTB race. He is not an endurance animal like Wout and he will break down over a 3 week Grand Tour.

Okay...

You don't think his de-ramping had something to do with his Olympics performance?

 

[Spine Concept]

If WVA is really going for the green jersey and not held back by his team doing domestique work, MVDP doesn't stand a chance. I'm a huge MVDP fan but a 3 week race fighting for points everyday is not his strong suite. He fought so hard to win the yellow jersey and to hold onto it for a week that it left him weakened for the Olympic MTB race. He is not an endurance animal like Wout and he will break down over a 3 week Grand Tour.

Odd take and premature comments about his endurance over a 3-week race.

Firstly, as mentioned above, the ramp that was there in training but not during the race itself, unbeknownst to him, was the main culprit of his OL MTB fiasco, surely.

Secondly, we have NO idea about Mathieu's endurance during a 3-week race as he's never completed one yet. The fact that he "fought hard" to keep the jersey was only really in one stage IIRC and he probably went beyond what he would have normally have with the knowledge that he'd exit the Tour early.

Only time will tell how he will fare in a 3-week race when he's not going all out "just" to keep the yellow jersey. With that being said, I do agree with most that Mathieu should be left to his own devices, that's when he is at his absolute best.

Finally, Philipsen had a great season indeed, very impressive, but the Tour is a different beast and now he will enter the "confirmation season" where he'll aim to emulate or better what he did last season. If he does manage that then he'll be a genuine threat for the green jersey. I hope he does so we can see a nice battle for the jersey.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Against normal opposition, he would, but Van Aert can potentially go top 10 on every stage of the race. But it's true that with the level Philipsen demonstrated this fall, he shouldn't be discounted.

I guess my antipathy against choosing him also stems from the fact that a battle between Mathieu and Wout for the green jersey would probably be one of the things I would like to see the most in cycling.

And I don't think it hurts a rider to go for green. Sagan wasn't exactly Mr Anonymous in his first many Tour participations, so now I wonder how he would have done if he hadn't "had his wings clipped" from going for green.

You're comparing Sagan, who is basically a phenomenon when it comes to positioning in sprints, to Van der Poel, who is arguably poor at it?
Philipsen, as a sprinter, is much closer to Sagan than Van der Poel is. Not the absolute fastest, but great positioning making him an outsider for any sprint, and a surefire bet on a top 5 finish.

On top of that, which other sprinter was in Sagan's team back then that could have won green?

Of course it's pompous. That doesn't necessarily mean it wouldn't make sense.

But I would much rather see a versatile guy like Van der Poel go for it. But I too think they will most likely try with Philipsen and then realise that he doesn't stand a chance.

Which would be worse than trying with Van der Poel and then realize he doesn't stand a chance?

I think the chance he loses too many points in the pure mass sprints, is equally big as Philipsen not being able to follow on the harder stages. Again, Philipsen is making a lot of progress year after year. He's 23. He was already as fast or faster than Van der Poel as a pure sprinter, next year he will probably be even faster.

And if it makes sense, it isn't pompous. Then it simply makes sense.

Philipsen has been finishing very high in the "most top 10's without a win" competition before he started winning. There is a high probability he will rack up a lot more points in sprints than Van der Poel. Look at last year's TDF results. He never won a stage, but 6(!) podiums in sprint stages. That's 4 more than Van Aert and 1 more than Cavendish.

 

[tobydawq]

You're comparing Sagan, who is basically a phenomenon when it comes to positioning in sprints, to Van der Poel, who is arguably poor at it?
Philipsen, as a sprinter, is much closer to Sagan than Van der Poel is. Not the absolute fastest, but great positioning making him an outsider for any sprint, and a surefire bet on a top 5 finish.

On top of that, which other sprinter was in Sagan's team back then that could have won green?


Which would be worse than trying with Van der Poel and then realize he doesn't stand a chance?

I think the chance he loses too many points in the pure mass sprints, is equally big as Philipsen not being able to follow on the harder stages. Again, Philipsen is making a lot of progress year after year. He's 23. He was already as fast or faster than Van der Poel as a pure sprinter, next year he will probably be even faster.

And if it makes sense, it isn't pompous. Then it simply makes sense.

Philipsen has been finishing very high in the "most top 10's without a win" competition before he started winning. There is a high probability he will rack up a lot more points in sprints than Van der Poel. Look at last year's TDF results. He never won a stage, but 6(!) podiums in sprint stages. That's 4 more than Van Aert and 1 more than Cavendish.

You have a much better discussion stamina when it comes to Belgian riders or Van der Poel than I have so I guess the following will somehow be twisted and dismantled as well.

But I don't get your response to my Sagan comparison at all. I only made the observation that Sagan, who did go for the green jersey, was extremely visible in his first many Tours and participated in tons of breaks. And you wrote that Van der Poel would not be as entertaining with his wings clipped as he could be, if he was a part of the green jersey competition. But seeing that no limits were put on Sagan's maverick-ness, I don't see why that would be the case for Van der Poel, should he partake in the competition.

The observation had nothing to do with whether there was a well-suited teammate for the points jersey or whether they were equally probable winners of the competition.

I don't know if you misunderstood my post or you just deliberately ignored my points because they questioned the validity of yours.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You have a much better discussion stamina when it comes to Belgian riders or Van der Poel than I have so I guess the following will somehow be twisted and dismantled as well.

But I don't get your response to my Sagan comparison at all. I only made the observation that Sagan, who did go for the green jersey, was extremely visible in his first many Tours and participated in tons of breaks. And you wrote that Van der Poel would not be as entertaining with his wings clipped as he could be, if he was a part of the green jersey competition. But seeing that no limits were put on Sagan's maverick-ness, I don't see why that would be the case for Van der Poel, should he partake in the competition.

The observation had nothing to do with whether there was a well-suited teammate for the points jersey or whether they were equally probable winners of the competition.

I don't know if you misunderstood my post or you just deliberately ignored my points because they questioned the validity of yours.

I think your posts made little sense all things considered. But if your argument is that i will simply "tire you out" in a discussion thus dismissing the arguments i've been making, maybe this conversation isn't worth investing in further.

Sagan was competing against pure sprinters iirc. Not guys that can win peloton sprints and finish top 15 in mountain stages from the group of favorites too. He was attacking because that's where the sprinters could not follow him and where he could gain points on them. Where is Van der Poel going to attack where Van Aert can't follow him and take as many or nearly as many points (or more)? Sagan was gifted at positioning even if he lacked raw speed and still take points in sprints. Van der Poel isn't.

I also can't remember talking about Van der Poel not being "entertaining" should he go for green, not sure that was ever a point i was making. Just that it would make much less sense for him than for Philipsen, because 1/ the concept of finishing high in every sprint fits Philipsen since he's at least as fast and much better at positioning (and fearless) while being enough of a classics rider to survive medium difficulty stages and 2/ because i fear it doesn't work for Van der Poel for a bunch of reasons. Him being attentive every day, him finishing top 5 in every sprint, him not being the best positioner... I don't think that's his forte.

He's a disruptor by nature. But this competition for green might very well take too much energy out of him, and limit him in the things he's actually good at, things he likes doing. Will he be doing crazy attacks when he needs to be on his game the next day because there is a sprint coming up? Will he be able to pull stunts like last year, knowing he has to last 3 weeks of fighting for green? Will he be able to perform to his best ability on a finish that fits him like a glove, when he has been spending energy trying to chase points in the week prior? And even if the answer is yes to those questions, what are the chances that it will actually be enough to beat Van Aert, who is a better sprinter and a better climber?

 

[tobydawq]

I also can't remember talking about Van der Poel not being "entertaining" should he go for green,

Really? You literally posted these two things two days ago:

"With Philipsen, they have someone who is far more suited for going for green, while they would be clipping Mathieu's wings by having to keep fighting for a few points, doing peloton sprints for 8th place behind a break, or forcing himself to get over climbs not to lose points at the finish where he would otherwise not bother and just pick his day on stages that would really suit him. "

"I think he's at his best when he can be a maverick, and be unpredictable. "

And now you'll probably say there is a massive difference between "good" and "entertaining" and that I have misunderstood your posts profoundly.

 

[tobydawq]

Anyways, watching the cross race today, we can conclude that Wout is peaking way too early for the Tour, so the points jersey should be slim pickings for the Alpecin boys.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Really? You literally posted these two things two days ago:

"With Philipsen, they have someone who is far more suited for going for green, while they would be clipping Mathieu's wings by having to keep fighting for a few points, doing peloton sprints for 8th place behind a break, or forcing himself to get over climbs not to lose points at the finish where he would otherwise not bother and just pick his day on stages that would really suit him. "

"I think he's at his best when he can be a maverick, and be unpredictable. "

And now you'll probably say there is a massive difference between "good" and "entertaining" and that I have misunderstood your posts profoundly.

???
WTF does that have to do with being entertaining? It being entertaining is merely a result, not the goal.

 

[tobydawq]

???
WTF does that have to do with being entertaining? It being entertaining is merely a result, not the goal.

???

 

[Open Horizon]

Twitter account La Flamme Rouge organized the 'attacker of the year' vote among prominent cycling twitter accounts.

Undisputed winner

Results

Rider	Points
Mathieu van der Poel	29
Matej Mohorič	24
Julian Alaphilippe	13
Tadej Pogacar	11
Remco Evenepoel	8
Taco Van der Hoorn	7
Egan Bernal	6
Magnus Cort Nielsen	6
Franck Bonnamour	3
Richard Carapaz	3
Sonny Colbrelli	3
Bauke Mollema	1
Damiano Caruso	1
Kasper Asgreen	1
Wout van Aert	1

 

[Mick Dundee]

Twitter account La Flamme Rouge organized the 'attacker of the year' vote among prominent cycling twitter accounts.

Undisputed winner

Results

Rider	Points
Mathieu van der Poel	29
Matej Mohorič	24
Julian Alaphilippe	13
Tadej Pogacar	11
Remco Evenepoel	8
Taco Van der Hoorn	7
Egan Bernal	6
Magnus Cort Nielsen	6
Franck Bonnamour	3
Richard Carapaz	3
Sonny Colbrelli	3
Bauke Mollema	1
Damiano Caruso	1
Kasper Asgreen	1
Wout van Aert	1

Coincidence maybe, but interesting to see the rider at the top and bottom of that list. Perhaps why they divide opinion….. unpredictable vs orthodox and respective fans drawn to those qualities?

 

[BlueRoads]

What I find interesting is Mohoric far in front of Alaphilippe, Evenepoel, Bernal...

 

[Open Horizon]

Coincidence maybe, but interesting to see the rider at the top and bottom of that list. Perhaps why they divide opinion….. unpredictable vs orthodox and respective fans drawn to those qualities?

It's probably why we see unanimous respect for Van Aert's amazing prowess, but not many devoted fans or haters. He doesnt take you on quite the rollercoaster ride that Alaphilippe and MvdP offer

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Wout is less of an offensive rider so that's not really surprising. His only solo attacks were Strade 2020 and Ventoux 2021.
Mathieu winning a poll by a Dutch twitter account is also not really surprising though, lol.

 

[Spine Concept]

Wout is less of an offensive rider so that's not really surprising. His only solo attacks were Strade 2020 and Ventoux 2021.
Mathieu winning a poll by a Dutch twitter account is also not really surprising though, lol.

Doesn’t make it any less deserving though, surely. Or do you disagree?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Doesn’t make it any less deserving though, surely. Or do you disagree?

I wouldn't say it's undeserved. He would be one out of a few that would deserve it. But the fact that Taco vd Hoorn is up there with the worlds best, while i think maybe Campenaerts has been one of THE most offensive riders of the past season, isn't even in the list, tells you all you need to know. The difference between MvdP and other riders who should be "up there" is simply not really credible.

 

[Ricco']

Wout is less of an offensive rider so that's not really surprising. His only solo attacks were Strade 2020 and Ventoux 2021.
Mathieu winning a poll by a Dutch twitter account is also not really surprising though, lol.

Dutch?

Afaik LFR was created by an italian team and right now, to be honest, their reach in the cycling world goes beyond a single country or region, they are pretty well disseminated through the whole territory.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Dutch?

Afaik LFR was created by an italian team and right now, to be honest, their reach in the cycling world goes beyond a single country or region, they are pretty well disseminated through the whole territory.

Then either i have them mixed up with another account, or they definitely have Dutch people working on their social media team.