The official contador's verdict details discussion thread

[Escarabajo]

I want to know could they appeal on the grounds that CAS are saying that it wasnt necessarily doping but a contaminated food supplement.

You are responsible for what you eat, unfortunately.

BTW, I am an Engineer not a Lawyer. so I really don't have a clue about the appeal.

Have not read the whole thread yet, but I'll do it eventually.

If an appeal is possible, he would probably be riding his bike again before we know the results of the appeal. LOL.

 

[Publicus]

So does the clen in blood on the 20th mean something?



VIno eats meat for breakfast, maybe he gave Contador a taste.

To be honest, I don't know what it means. My first thought is that, when paired with the presence of the DEHP in his urine, that's all the proof you need that he transfused. But then, WADA didn't make that argument; in fact they argued that he transfused twice on the 21st (blood) and the 22nd (plasma). My guess, and this is only a guess, is if he transfused blood on the 20th that had CB in it, the amount in his bloodstream should have been higher. I don't know enough about the science involved here to wager anything approximating an educated guess, but he had 1 microgram/ml (10^-6) in his blood the night before. And the next morning he had 50 picograms (10^-12) in his urine. I don't know if this is normal for ingesting contaminated food/supplements so I will have to rely on the scientist here to weigh-in.

 

[Publicus]

[snip] since cas apparently considered the transfusion less likely than a supplement contamination, they are likely considering blood clen on the 20th a sign of contamination unknown to bert…a weird supposition if you ask me for which i did not find any hard evidence presented by either side.

I think that's plausible and probably why they arrived at the food supplement contamination over the meat contamination (though unfortunately they don't explicitly draw that link).

What I don't understand is why he wasn't sanctioned for only a year? If what he (AC) says is true--that he only took supplements provided by the Astana team doctors to protect against contamination; that the supplement providers don't handle or manufacture CB--how much more diligent should he have been? It would seem to me that he has a strong argument that 2 years is far too much for a contaminated supplement in light of the fact that he was taking reasonable precautions.

 

[BillytheKid]

The timing of the testing is not relevant. Remember this guy.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/anti-doping-expert-lends-li-support-in-doping-case

It just a matter of having it in your body which is hard to stomach.

 

[Escarabajo]

I think that's plausible and probably why they arrived at the food supplement contamination over the meat contamination (though unfortunately they don't explicitly draw that link).

What I don't understand is why he wasn't sanctioned for only a year? If what he (AC) says is true--that he only took supplements provided by the Astana team doctors to protect against contamination; that the supplement providers don't handle or manufacture CB--how much more diligent should he have been? It would seem to me that he has a strong argument that 2 years is far too much for a contaminated supplement in light of the fact that he was taking reasonable precautions.

I thought of this at the beginning also. But then there are other factors that could have played against Contador in the 2 yaer ban such as not having the hard evidence, or the meat being from spain and not China or Mexico. Don't know just speculating and playing the odds here.

 

[labratty]

What I don't understand is why he wasn't sanctioned for only a year? If what he (AC) says is true--that he only took supplements provided by the Astana team doctors to protect against contamination; that the supplement providers don't handle or manufacture CB--how much more diligent should he have been? It would seem to me that he has a strong argument that 2 years is far too much for a contaminated supplement in light of the fact that he was taking reasonable precautions.

It seems likely Astana did not get the opportunity to present their quality control systems for suppliments, assuming they had them. Now that CAS has made the statement that they feel contamination is likely, I would think it should have given the parties involved a chance to show due diligence was followed procuring the suppliments.

However the findings state that the circumstances for a reduced sentence were absent, that could mean the chance to present was offered and not able to be used to their satidfaction, if it was not offered it may be the procedural error that allows for an appeal. Which would be tedious, I would like this to be over, one way or another.

 

[Cimber]

so he was convicted due to the "strict liability" rule. However, I would have found the verdict easier to digest if they had stated that they find it likely that transfusion was the source. In this verdict they basically say that find it unlikely that he doped, but the rules are rules and hence he get 2 years.

However, I think that its important for his future career that they actually do state that WADA's doping theory is very unlikely

 

[Winternet_]

The set of rules that the sport is ruled by needs to change. A set of rules that give Riccardo Ricco a 20-month ban and Alberto Contador a 24-month ban cannot be a set of rules anyone trusts our beloved sport to abide to.

 

[python]

I think that's plausible and probably why they arrived at the food supplement contamination over the meat contamination (though unfortunately they don't explicitly draw that link).

that's why i used the word 'weird'...it's very uncharacteristic of cas to draw a conclusion for which neither of the parties presented hard evidence. my hunch ? it's a sign of the panel's disunity and perhaps several iterations with opposite conclusions..2/1, 1/2, 2/1. 1/2....you get the idea.

What I don't understand is why he wasn't sanctioned for only a year?

as i noted in the parallel thread - if rfec sanctioned him for 1 yeas as originally proposed, than bert would appeal (that is he would be the appellant not wada). but deep down, i believe cas is saying this, 'it's a draw but b/c we're bound by the imperfect strict liability as written, sorry bert, you have to give you 2 years b/c the onus was on you'. again, weird !!

 

[Parrulo]

what i am curious about is, due to the "weirdness" of the decision can contador appeal to a non sports related court? if he indeed can will that court decid based on same rules as CAS with all that "strict liability" stuff? and would it be possible for a decision to be reached before the end of his ban?

 

[Winternet_]

I think we'll have more answers tomorrow at the press conference. I hope for the sake of the sport, that Bertie stays at Saxo Bank.

 

[Cimber]

so Contador wont be able to earn any WT points for the next 2 years after his comeback?

 

[DirtyWorks]

The set of rules that the sport is ruled by needs to change. A set of rules that give Riccardo Ricco a 20-month ban and Alberto Contador a 24-month ban cannot be a set of rules anyone trusts our beloved sport to abide to.

The specifics of each case may inspire specific penalties. It's hard to compare cases in this way.

As a general comment, getting the UCI out of anti-doping is a symbolic start. The anti-doping process should be run practically blind to the IOC/UCI. But it's just the opposite. The UCI is omniscient when it comes to doping.

 

[python]

what i am curious about is, due to the "weirdness" of the decision can contador appeal to a non sports related court? if he indeed can will that court decid based on same rules as CAS with all that "strict liability" stuff? and would it be possible for a decision to be reached before the end of his ban?

publicus is a lawyer, so the question is better suited for him. my guess is that sure bert can appeal wherever but it wont have a sporting meaning unless the swiss federal court takes his appeal, which i'm not sure there are grounds for.

 

[LaFlorecita]

However, I think that its important for his future career that they actually do state that WADA's doping theory is very unlikely

Two year ban screws up his career anyhow.

 

[Winternet_]

The specifics of each case may inspire specific penalties. It's hard to compare cases in this way.

As a general comment, getting the UCI out of anti-doping is a symbolic start. The anti-doping process should be run practically blind to the IOC/UCI. But it's just the opposite. The UCI is omniscient when it comes to doping.

And the fact that this is all because of such small amounts that are proven to have no effect on a rider's performance found by a very unique and non-standard lab which in itself is a discrimination towards Alberto.

And for the general public, none of this matters. The only thing they see is that the sport is a sham, a disgrace.

 

[roundabout]

what i am curious about is, due to the "weirdness" of the decision can contador appeal to a non sports related court? if he indeed can will that court decid based on same rules as CAS with all that "strict liability" stuff? and would it be possible for a decision to be reached before the end of his ban?

It's unlikely. It took 6 months between Valverde's appeal in Switzerland and the judgment being issued (a bit over 7 months from the date of the CAS decision).

 

[Publicus]

that's why i used the word 'weird'...it's very uncharacteristic of cas to draw a conclusion for which neither of the parties presented hard evidence. my hunch ? it's a sign of the panel's disunity and perhaps several iterations with opposite conclusions..2/1, 1/2, 2/1. 1/2....you get the idea.

as i noted in the parallel thread - if rfec sanctioned him for 1 yeas as originally proposed, than bert would appeal (that is he would be the appellant not wada). but deep down, i believe cas is saying this, 'it's a draw but b/c we're bound by the imperfect strict liability as written, sorry bert, you have to give you 2 years b/c the onus was on you'. again, weird !!

I'm not sure I follow that rationale. CAS essentially heard the case de novo, so it wasn't bound necessarily by RFEC's decision. In any event, my question is based solely on CAS' own analysis. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised they did not order that the supplements be tested or give the parties leave to present more evidence on the particular issue.

what i am curious about is, due to the "weirdness" of the decision can contador appeal to a non sports related court? if he indeed can will that court decid based on same rules as CAS with all that "strict liability" stuff? and would it be possible for a decision to be reached before the end of his ban?

I'm neither an appellate lawyer nor generally knowledgeable about Swiss law or civil procedure. I think his strongest argument would be for manifest error on the part of the panel, but I'm not sure if that is a permissible basis for appeal under the CAS/WADA regime (again, not an appellate lawyer). I suspect he will file the appeal--especially if he believes he is innocent. Sure he may back riding before the appeal is decided, but if he's fully exonerated, it may be worth it to him to pursue every recourse.

so Contador wont be able to earn any WT points for the next 2 years after his comeback?

That's my understanding, which I think is the bigger travesty where, in this case, the sanction is due to contamination. I was really hoping that CAS would provide some closure on the issue, but that is not the case.

 

[DirtyWorks]

And the fact that this is all because of such small amounts that are proven to have no effect on a rider's performance found by a very unique and non-standard lab which in itself is a discrimination towards Alberto.

What do you mean non-standard? WADA certification is just that. They have been examined as competent to test for PED's. There is another useful thread about the variability in WADA certified lab testing. I suggest you find it.

And for the general public, none of this matters. The only thing they see is that the sport is a sham, a disgrace.

Because the UCI's version of the sport is, in fact, a drug-riddled, non-transparent and very likely deeply corrupt enterprise backed by the IOC's unsavory activities. Like boxing it has the legacy it deserves and earned. Pretending cycling is persecuted only enables the hooligans running the UCI.

 

[mastersracer]

I'm not sure I follow that rationale. CAS essentially heard the case de novo, so it wasn't bound necessarily by RFEC's decision. In any event, my question is based solely on CAS' own analysis. To be honest, I'm a bit surprised they did not order that the supplements be tested or give the parties leave to present more evidence on the particular issue.

(

This is where Contador's defense seems to have been flawed and raises some suspicions. Why did Contador and his defense seem so adamant against the tainted supplement scenario and instead arrive so quickly at the tainted meat one? The burden was on his defense to raise the tainted supplement scenario - otherwise there is no burden for WADA to provide evidence for that scenario, hence no need to test supplements. Given a reading of Jessica Hardy's ruling, the tainted supplement scenario does seem plausible and consistent with the pattern of positive/negative findings.

 

[Publicus]

This is where Contador's defense seems to have been flawed and raises some suspicions. Why did Contador and his defense seem so adamant against the tainted supplement scenario and instead arrive so quickly at the tainted meat one? The burden was on his defense to raise the tainted supplement scenario - otherwise there is no burden for WADA to provide evidence for that scenario, hence no need to test supplements. Given a reading of Jessica Hardy's ruling, the tainted supplement scenario does seem plausible and consistent with the pattern of positive/negative findings.

Based on the arguments presented in the CAS document, AC's team believed (a) he did not take any supplements on the rest day and, even for the sake of argument if he did take supplements on that day, he (b) only took supplements provided by his team doctor and available to Astana teammates, (c) none of his other Astana teammates or 2011 roster ever tested positive as result of those supplements and (d) the supplement manufacters certified that (1) none of them manufacturer or have access to CB and (2) that a 3rd party certifies the contents of their supplements (I believe there is a 3rd factor with the manufacturers, but I can't recall it off the top of my head).

It seems to me that CAS basically disagreed with their position and just concluded that it more than likely it had to be a contaminated supplement. As Python and I have noted, it seems to turn on the small amount of CB found in his blood on 20 July (1 microgram/ml) but not in his urine until the next morning (50 picograms/ml). CAS, however, fails to really explain how they arrived at their conclusion, which frankly makes this decision terrible. They were supposedly spending extra time to make sure they had an airtight opinion and frankly they failed in my opinion.

 

[Benotti69]

This is where Contador's defense seems to have been flawed and raises some suspicions. Why did Contador and his defense seem so adamant against the tainted supplement scenario and instead arrive so quickly at the tainted meat one? The burden was on his defense to raise the tainted supplement scenario - otherwise there is no burden for WADA to provide evidence for that scenario, hence no need to test supplements. Given a reading of Jessica Hardy's ruling, the tainted supplement scenario does seem plausible and consistent with the pattern of positive/negative findings.

"Why did Contador and his defense seem so adamant against the tainted supplement scenario and instead arrive so quickly at the tainted meat one?"

Because maybe they aren't the smartest.

 

[richwagmn]

Well, at least I won't need to watch the TDF this year. There are simply no exciting GC riders with AC gone.

Hell, Leipheimer could even take it and that's something I just couldn't watch.

 

[thehog]

Hell, Leipheimer could even take it and that's something I just couldn't watch.

At this rate Lance is still a chance!

 

[Benotti69]

At this rate Lance is still a chance!

I bet he wishes the CAS case was decided before Xmas, he would've started 'training'.