The official contador's verdict details discussion thread

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To be honest I am somewhat puzzled on the contaminated supplement thing.

To consider it the likeliest scenario one has to presume that Contador either lied about the supplements that he uses or when he takes them and that supplement testing isn't strict enough (whole can of worms here).

It almost seems that the notion that the supplements were the likeliest cause of the positive is plucked out of thin air (even if Contador apparently takes tons of them ).

Of course there's always a question whether the 20th of July sample was a typo (which the explanation that seems most likely to me) and if not when this sample was actually taken.
 
Jul 24, 2009
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Publicus said:
As Python and I have noted, it seems to turn on the small amount of CB found in his blood on 20 July (1 microgram/ml) but not in his urine until the next morning (50 picograms/ml). CAS, however, fails to really explain how they arrived at their conclusion, which frankly makes this decision terrible. They were supposedly spending extra time to make sure they had an airtight opinion and frankly they failed in my opinion.

Certainly true. They spend a lot of time documenting the delays in the case, and less time documenting their reasoning.

My question: the blood sample on the morning of the 20th seems damning on the surface. Contador would have to have claimed that he ate the contaminated meat on the morning of the 20th, sometime before the sample was taken.

A big meat breakfast before (arguably) the toughest stage of the tour? It sounds odd to me, but I really don't know, and I'm hoping someone can give a feel for the plausibility of this.
 
hfer07 said:
worst weekend ever:mad: -sporting wise: LA walks away with impunity, the Pats lost the Superbowl & just when I thought of a fresh start for this week- I get brought down by the CAS ruling on Alberto's case ............ :(

this is BS:mad:

Throw in United loosing ground on City and welcome to my world.
 

mastersracer

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armchair said:
Certainly true. They spend a lot of time documenting the delays in the case, and less time documenting their reasoning.

My question: the blood sample on the morning of the 20th seems damning on the surface. Contador would have to have claimed that he ate the contaminated meat on the morning of the 20th, sometime before the sample was taken.

A big meat breakfast before (arguably) the toughest stage of the tour? It sounds odd to me, but I really don't know, and I'm hoping someone can give a feel for the plausibility of this.

There's a typo in the report. Paragraph 16 states a blood test taken the morning of the 20th. It was taken the morning of the 21st, as stated in paragraph 416.
 
I have a really poor connection and have been unable to download the full report. If someone would PM me and send it as an attached file I would be very grateful. (How big is the report? I have downloaded 1.8 MB so far and it still isn't finished).

Wrt the positive CB test the day before--obviously, as Python says, very crucial. But it raises some more issues:

1) if he tested positive the day before the well known positive, then this changes the transfusion dynamics. Suddenly CB appears at the same time as DEHP. Except...
2) If it was 1 ug/ml, that is probably way too high to explain as coming from a transfusion. In fact, as discussed in this forum before, higher levels of CB make transfusion unlikely, and if this 1 ug/ml is correct I would say it pretty definitively rules out transfusion. Maybe they used this logic to conclude this in the report, again haven't been able to see it.
3) The difference between 1 ug/ml and 50 pg/ml. is (way) too large to be accounted for by normal pharmacokinetics in one day. Do they address this problem in the report? This is pretty serious, because all the subsequent tests of Bert show levels consistent with expected pharmacokinetics. There almost has to be a very large error in one of these test values, and it would almost have to be the 1 ug/ml. value that is wrong. It would have to be lowered.

But if it were lowered to the point where it was consistent with 50 pg/ml, then the transfusion theory again starts to look possibly plausible. Barely, because even say 100 pg/ml is pretty high for transfusion, unless he infused about 500 ml of blood and had been taking a lot of CB when he withdrew that blood. But at least the two steps no longer become necessary.
 
May 18, 2009
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Merckx index said:
I have a really poor connection and have been unable to download the full report. If someone would PM me and send it as an attached file I would be very grateful. (How big is the report? I have downloaded 1.8 MB so far and it still isn't finished).

Wrt the positive CB test the day before--obviously, as Python says, very crucial. But it raises some more issues:

1) if he tested positive the day before the well known positive, then this changes the transfusion dynamics. Suddenly CB appears at the same time as DEHP. Except...
2) If it was 1 ug/ml, that is probably way too high to explain as coming from a transfusion. In fact, as discussed in this forum before, higher levels of CB make transfusion unlikely, and if this 1 ug/ml is correct I would say it pretty definitively rules out transfusion. Maybe they used this logic to conclude this in the report, again haven't been able to see it.
3) The difference between 1 ug/ml and 50 pg/ml. is (way) too large to be accounted for by normal pharmacokinetics in one day. Do they address this problem in the report? This is pretty serious, because all the subsequent tests of Bert show levels consistent with expected pharmacokinetics. There almost has to be a very large error in one of these test values, and it would almost have to be the 1 ug/ml. value that is wrong. It would have to be lowered.

But if it were lowered to the point where it was consistent with 50 pg/ml, then the transfusion theory again starts to look possibly plausible. Barely, because even say 100 pg/ml is pretty high for transfusion, unless he infused about 500 ml of blood and had been taking a lot of CB when he withdrew that blood. But at least the two steps no longer become necessary.

Inre to #2 and 3, does the accuracy of the blood test vs the urine test vary in terms of concentration in each of the various fluids?
 

mastersracer

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roundabout said:
I've seen the size of the report as 7+MB. Probably too much for a PM

As to the July 20 blood sample it's mentioned only once at the beginning with the facts of the case and not referenced since.

As I said above, it is a typo. In paragraph 416 of the report it is stated that the blood test resulting in 1 ug/ml was administered in the morning of the 21st. The urine test on the evening of the 20th was negative (but high for plasticizers). The scenario that is most plausible is that blood and plasma were infused separately and that the plasma was stored in a DEHP-free bag (with the plasma being contaminated).
 
mastersracer said:
As I said above, it is a typo. In paragraph 416 of the report it is stated that the blood test resulting in 1 ug/ml was administered in the morning of the 21st. The urine test on the evening of the 20th was negative (but high for plasticizers). The scenario that is most plausible is that blood and plasma were infused separately and that the plasma was stored in a DEHP-free bag (with the plasma being contaminated).

Thank you. Especially for the paragraph reference. Saved me a lot of time looking through the document.
 
Jul 8, 2010
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mastersracer said:
There's a typo in the report. Paragraph 16 states a blood test taken the morning of the 20th. It was taken the morning of the 21st, as stated in paragraph 416.

Can anyone confirm seeing the statement in paragraph 416? If it's not there, why are you mentioning it? If it is, why is roundabout lying?
 
Merckx index said:
...
The difference between 1 ug/ml and 50 pg/ml. is (way) too large to be accounted for by normal pharmacokinetics in one day. Do they address this problem in the report? This is pretty serious, because all the subsequent tests of Bert show levels consistent with expected pharmacokinetics. There almost has to be a very large error in one of these test values, and it would almost have to be the 1 ug/ml. value that is wrong. It would have to be lowered.

Thanks for your feedback so far. It is invaluable. Something not made clear is which lab ran the tests on the various samples.

We know WADA lab results vary widely. Can you tell us if clen tests require as much skill to prepare and read as some other PED tests?

I look forward to any other insights/opinions you may post.
 
ChrisE said:
Inre to #2 and 3, does the accuracy of the blood test vs the urine test vary in terms of concentration in each of the various fluids?

At those levels, accuracy shouldn't be a significant factor. Here is the problem:

According to an article that was linked and much-discussed here before, even taking very high doses of CB would not result in 1 ug/ml in blood. In that article, a dose of 80 ug of CB taken twice daily for several days resulted in blood levels of about 1 ng/ml., one thousand times lower than the reported blood level for Bert. So I don’t see how that 1 ug/ml can be correct, but again, I’m flying blind here and may have missed something. To get that levels that high you would have to take a dose that no one I'm sure has ever taken, and if they had, they didn't live to tell about it.

Edit: Finally I have the report. I have just started reading it, and see where it says the blood sample contained "around" 1 ug/ml of CB. Another poster said this is not mentioned again in the report.

I strongly believe this is a typo or some other kind of error. It just doesn't make sense, for the reasons discussed above.

A person has roughly 7 liters of blood. A concentration of 1 ug/ml. would mean a dose of 7000 ug or 7 mg, assuming measurement immediately after ingestion. Over time, the blood level would fall, so that 1 ug/ml would mean an even larger initial dose. To put this in perspective, in the worst CB meat contamination cases I have seen, there was around 1 mg CB per kg of meat. Nobody eats 1 kg of meat, so they would ingest less than 1 mg.

Possibly they meant 1 ug/l., or 1 ng/ml? That would make much more sense, but it still would not be very consistent with a contaminated supplement, much more likely intentional use of CB.

Also, very roughly calculating, an initial or plateau blood value of 1 ug/ml. would correspond to a urine value of about the same, 1 ug/ml, with a very large error or variation, but still in that rough ballpark.. That is, if you took enough CB to result in an initial or stable blood level of 1 ug/ml, you would get a level about that high in the urine. This is extremely rough, because it depends on when after taking the CB the levels are measured, but this gives one an idea of the magnitude of the discrepancy of 1 ug/ml in blood vs. 50 pg/ml. in urine.
 
Merckx index said:
At those levels, accuracy shouldn't be a significant factor. Here is the problem:

According to an article that was linked and much-discussed here before, even taking very high doses of CB would not result in 1 ug/ml in blood. In that article, a dose of 80 ug of CB taken twice daily for several days resulted in blood levels of about 1 ng/ml., one thousand times lower than the reported blood level for Bert. So I don’t see how that 1 ug/ml can be correct, but again, I’m flying blind here and may have missed something. To get that levels that high you would have to take a dose that no one I'm sure has ever taken, and if they had, they didn't live to tell about it.

Edit: Finally I have the report. I have just started reading it, and see where it says the blood sample contained "around" 1 ug/ml of CB. Another poster said this is not mentioned again in the report.

I strongly believe this is a typo or some other kind of error. It just doesn't make sense, for the reasons discussed above.

A person has roughly 7 liters of blood. A concentration of 1 ug/ml. would mean a dose of 7000 ug or 7 mg, assuming measurement immediately after ingestion. Over time, the blood level would fall, so that 1 ug/ml would mean an even larger initial dose. To put this in perspective, in the worst CB meat contamination cases I have seen, there was around 1 mg CB per kg of meat. Nobody eats 1 kg of meat, so they would ingest less than 1 mg.

Possibly they meant 1 ug/l., or 1 ng/ml? That would make much more sense, but it still would not be very consistent with a contaminated supplement, much more likely intentional use of CB.

Also, very roughly calculating, an initial or plateau blood value of 1 ug/ml. would correspond to a urine value of about the same, 1 ug/ml, with a very large error or variation, but still in that rough ballpark.. That is, if you took enough CB to result in an initial or stable blood level of 1 ug/ml, you would get a level about that high in the urine. This is extremely rough, because it depends on when after taking the CB the levels are measured, but this gives one an idea of the magnitude of the discrepancy of 1 ug/ml in blood vs. 50 pg/ml. in urine.

Well this blows a hole in my supposition as to how they arrived at the contaminated supplement. Pure head scratcher at this point. :confused: I'd be interested in your take on their analysis, and ultimate rejection, of the transfusion theory.
 
Some interesting points I came across in the report. In the UCI’s testimony:

1. They take into account Bert’s association with Saiz, and the problems with doping at Astana. I didn’t know that a rider's past history, including evidence unrelated to laboratory tests, could be part of the case.
2. They say that Ashenden provided evidence that Bert’s blood samples during the 2010 TDF were not normal. He had levels of reticulocytes and of Hb that were also higher than during previous GTs he had raced in, not just higher than in recent tests before the 2010 TDF. What Ashenden was prevented from doing was arguing that a DEHP-free bag is sufficiently possible to account for the two-step transfusion theory. This was apparently what the ruckus was about in early January.
3. In mentioning the DEHP test, they also provide something new we didn’t know before, and which I had thought they should be doing: Bert’s levels of DEHP were tested on other days, providing a sort of baseline, and were found to be normal. This tends to rule out that he is some kind of outlier. His levels on July 20 were higher than any recorded in the original Spanish study of transfusions, and only 5 samples out of 11,000 in a study of athletes not thought to benefit from transfusion had comparable values. Exceeded the 99.9% reference level.
4. UCI categorically states that contamination is no more likely than, and most likely less likely than, transfusion. Also, that even if contamination were the most likely source, Bert still has failed to prove it.

From WADA’s testimony:

1. They note that RFEC incorrectly placed the burden of proof on WADA instead of on the athlete.
2. They note that the level of contamination of meat would be such that the animal would have to be slaughtered immediately after the last dose of CB, which makes no sense since then it would not benefit from that dose. Again, this is the argument that while ranchers may dope their cattle, they let CB clear the system before slaughter. This argument, ironically, mirrors the one Bert's team used successfully to rebut the notion that he withdrew blood while doped up with CB (see below).
3. They estimate the probability of any head of cattle being contaminated as 0.0042%, which is about one in twenty-five thousand, and argue that the probability any particular sample of meat being contaminated is even less than that.
4. Something on protection of anonymous witnesses? Lawyers weigh in, please, this is very interesting, but don’t have time to read the relevant passages.

Some other important points:

1. Panel found it unlikely meat was imported from South America. Quite sure the cattle was raised and slaughtered in Spain.
2. The brother who was busted for doping cattle did this at a time (1996) when this was much more common, so it is not considered significant evidence for the possibility that the rancher that might have supplied Bert’s meat was doping.

The 1 ug/ml blood level of CB is mentioned again in article 416, and is described as “low”. This has to be a mistake.

In article 417 it’s argued that body builders use only 100-300 ng a day. This strikes me as a prime example of what another poster called cherry-picking. Maybe they found one blog somewhere that said this, but it's not at all typical. WADA suggested 60-120 ug a day. This is much more realistic, and also in line what the most cited study of the pharmacokinetics of CB used. I really doubt that 100-300 ng would have any effect at all. Indeed, this is the estimated amount Bert ingested to get 50 pg/ml, and everyone seems to agree that it would have had no PE effect.

Yet the panel apparently bought Bert's argument that the doses suggested by WADA were too high, and concluded that Bert would not have taken such very large doses of CB right before withdrawal. I think this was the main reason they found transfusion very unlikely. WADA, really grasping at straws at one point, argued that Bert might have transfused someone else’s plasma, and not checked to see if that someone had been using CB. Good grief.

I find the arguments for a contaminated supplement very unconvincing--and I think the panel does, too. They just think transfusion and meat are even more unlikely. But Bert furnished a list of 27 supplements Astana made available to the team, and also checked with six different manufacturers, who don't use CB and apparently have never had one of their products test positive for CB. Seems to me some inconsistent logic here. The panel accepts Bert's argument that he would stupid to take large doses of CB right before withdrawing blood, but find it more plausible that he would take a supplement unapproved by his team in the middle of the Tour. Does any supplement really make that much difference to performance that it would be worth the risk?

Again, I wonder if the greater sensitivity at Cologne has made some supplements that would normally be considered free of CB by industry standards now capable of giving an athlete a positive. But it's hard to say more while this 1 ug/ml value is on the record. In addition to suggesting an impossibly high level of CB, and being inconsistent with the 50 pg/ml the following day, it would far more likely mean direct use of CB, not a supplement.

Wrt the question, why not just one year? All I can come up with is that CAS felt that Bert may have lied about taking the supplement, rather than coming out with it honestly. If you read the section on evidence for supplement, it basically boils down to, he must have taken a supplement that he didn't tell anyone else about, since the known ones were clean. If you buy this, then you pretty much buy that Bert was covering this up (and CAS basically says this in this part of the report). I'm not familiar with the rules here, but I imagine if you don't come clean about a supplement, it goes worse for you?

Best line of the day: "Contador could still appeal to a higher authority, however, such as Lance Armstrong's lawyers."

http://espn.go.com/olympics/cycling...-ruling-gives-sport-cycling-another-black-eye

Edit: If I may insert some possibly relevant boxing news. Julio Cesar Chavez, Jr., won a middleweight bout this past Sat. night. Now it turns out he "forgot" to provide a urine sample after the fight. This is especially interesting because two weeks before the fight he was arrested for DUI and according to police logs, weighed 175--15 pounds over the middleweight max. As we discussed here recently wrt Bert's "natural" methods of eating, that's a lot of weight to lose in two weeks. Supposedly he was still 5 pounds overweight the day before the weigh-in. Think he might have used some CB? Stay tuned.
 
Jan 18, 2010
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Supplement industry vs. beef industry

Thanks for all the work done in this thread. Maybe this has been mentioned.

Seems to me that CAS coming up with the contaminated supplement theory is essentially so that the Spanish beef industry can be exonerated from wrong doing. Since WADA didn't do a good job proving it's transfusion theory (the most likely scenario IMHO), CAS couldn't blame it on the beef industry do to the political and economic fallout that would have caused.

CAS doesn't operate in a vacuum, and some industries are more important/connected than others.
 
Jun 18, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
I bet he wishes the CAS case was decided before Xmas, he would've started 'training'.

Don't count him out. It'd be a new book for Wilcockson and a whole new set of Livestrong gear.
 

Dr. Maserati

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biokemguy said:
Thanks for all the work done in this thread. Maybe this has been mentioned.

Seems to me that CAS coming up with the contaminated supplement theory is essentially so that the Spanish beef industry can be exonerated from wrong doing. Since WADA didn't do a good job proving it's transfusion theory (the most likely scenario IMHO), CAS couldn't blame it on the beef industry do to the political and economic fallout that would have caused.

CAS doesn't operate in a vacuum, and some industries are more important/connected than others.

With respect, you need to read the CAS decision - it went through the meat scenario in exhaustive detail. It did not exonerate the Spanish meat industry, but after examining all the scenarios ruled it unlikely.

324 For all the above reasons, the Panel agrees with the submissions of UCI and WADA that the possibility of a piece of meat being contaminated in the EU cannot be entirely ruled out, but the probability is very low.
 
Merckx index said:
4. Something on protection of anonymous witnesses? Lawyers weigh in, please, this is very interesting, but don’t have time to read the relevant passages.
WADA had a witness who was to testify as an anonymous, protected witness, saying there could be consequences for him and/or his family if his identity were revealed. That was according to CAS and Swiss law, provided it could be established that the risk to the witness was real and that it outweighed the needs of the defendants to know his identity to defend properly. Contador argued that the witness was irrelevant, since he wanted to testify about things that happened in 2005 and 2006 (DUN DUN DUN), and anyway he was free to testify, but the protected witness status wasn't justified. The Panel agreed with Contador, and the witness didn't testify.
 
hrotha said:
WADA had a witness who was to testify as an anonymous, protected witness, saying there could be consequences for him and/or his family if his identity were revealed. That was according to CAS and Swiss law, provided it could be established that the risk to the witness was real and that it outweighed the needs of the defendants to know his identity to defend properly. Contador argued that the witness was irrelevant, since he wanted to testify about things that happened in 2005 and 2006 (DUN DUN DUN), and anyway he was free to testify, but the protected witness status wasn't justified. The Panel agreed with Contador, and the witness didn't testify.

Shorter: the accused has the right to confront his accuser. Not sure what relevance anything from 2005/2006 has to do with a the CB case, but I will note that WADA declined the opportunity to give a proffer (have the anonymous witness testify in camera which means they knew the witness' testimony likely didn't have any probative value)
 
Jul 8, 2010
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After reading all your posts, I can't help but thinking that CAS has ruled the way they did with the hypothesis of a contaminated supplement in order to prepare authorities in charge to implement a minimum threshold on clenbuterol detection. This will avoid future discussions and ridiculous situations. This whole process must have cost a fortune.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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my several earlier posts were based on the quick review of summary items as derived from the the cas document index...now i'm digesting it concurrently taking notes for future references -2/3 through (p.57 of 98)...

i will comment on the possible typos/errors in the cas document pointed by others later, when i'm 100% done.

in the mean, time a couple of very interesting points emerged that seem to shed light on some of the previously poorly understood/misunderstood events, such as to why wada even bothered to advance an alternative theory when it's the athlete's burden (according to the traditional interpretation) to discharge his burden

items 260 and 261 suggest (my preliminary understanding) that the panel accepted Contador's lawyer's interpetation of the burden and standard of proof (which in turn is based on swiss civil code) that requires an appellant (wada) to cooperate by providing alternatives in cases where the respondent's (contador) burden seem high.

thus wada advanced 2 other scenarios - transfusion and contaminated supplement.

this is a very interesting development b/c (i) it deviates from the strict liability principle as implied in wada code (ii) it creates an uphill for contador if they appeal to swiss tribunal b/c the panel ALREADY accounted for the swiss law.

back soon with the rest....
 
Jul 19, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Wrt the question, why not just one year? All I can come up with is that CAS felt that Bert may have lied about taking the supplement, rather than coming out with it honestly. If you read the section on evidence for supplement, it basically boils down to, he must have taken a supplement that he didn't tell anyone else about, since the known ones were clean. If you buy this, then you pretty much buy that Bert was covering this up (and CAS basically says this in this part of the report). I'm not familiar with the rules here, but I imagine if you don't come clean about a supplement, it goes worse for you?

The rules say there is a two year ban, with no qualifications. Somewhere in the ruling (I can't remember where now - near the end, where they explain the sanctions) they address this point, and basically say - we can't do anything because the rules don't allow it.

All the crap about the supplement seems not to be really necessary from the legal point of view (I'd be interested to hear otherwise) - since the issue is whether Contador has proved how the clenbuterol got in his body and that it was not his fault - and he hasn't done that - but I think they wanted an alternative theory anyway, to stave of criticism.
 
Jan 10, 2012
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Merckx index said:
The 1 ug/ml blood level of CB is mentioned again in article 416, and is described as “low”. This has to be a mistake.

In article 417 it’s argued that body builders use only 100-300 ng a day. This strikes me as a prime example of what another poster called cherry-picking. Maybe they found one blog somewhere that said this, but it's not at all typical. WADA suggested 60-120 ug a day. This is much more realistic, and also in line what the most cited study of the pharmacokinetics of CB used. I really doubt that 100-300 ng would have any effect at all. Indeed, this is the estimated amount Bert ingested to get 50 pg/ml, and everyone seems to agree that it would have had no PE effect.

Yet the panel apparently bought Bert's argument that the doses suggested by WADA were too high, and concluded that Bert would not have taken such very large doses of CB right before withdrawal. I think this was the main reason they found transfusion very unlikely. WADA, really grasping at straws at one point, argued that Bert might have transfused someone else’s plasma, and not checked to see if that someone had been using CB. Good grief.

I find the arguments for a contaminated supplement very unconvincing--and I think the panel does, too. They just think transfusion and meat are even more unlikely. But Bert furnished a list of 27 supplements Astana made available to the team, and also checked with six different manufacturers, who don't use CB and apparently have never had one of their products test positive for CB. Seems to me some inconsistent logic here. The panel accepts Bert's argument that he would stupid to take large doses of CB right before withdrawing blood, but find it more plausible that he would take a supplement unapproved by his team in the middle of the Tour. Does any supplement really make that much difference to performance that it would be worth the risk?

Again, I wonder if the greater sensitivity at Cologne has made some supplements that would normally be considered free of CB by industry standards now capable of giving an athlete a positive. But it's hard to say more while this 1 ug/ml value is on the record. In addition to suggesting an impossibly high level of CB, and being inconsistent with the 50 pg/ml the following day, it would far more likely mean direct use of CB, not a supplement.

Totally agree with this, MI.

Wrt the question, why not just one year? All I can come up with is that CAS felt that Bert may have lied about taking the supplement, rather than coming out with it honestly. If you read the section on evidence for supplement, it basically boils down to, he must have taken a supplement that he didn't tell anyone else about, since the known ones were clean. If you buy this, then you pretty much buy that Bert was covering this up (and CAS basically says this in this part of the report). I'm not familiar with the rules here, but I imagine if you don't come clean about a supplement, it goes worse for you?

To get a lower sentence, Bert should have made contaminated supplements part of his defense instead of food contamination. If he had done that, and could have shown he took appropriate measures and was, in spite of ingesting contaminated supplements, careful enough, he would have had just one year (like Hardy).

By choosing the food contamination theory, and CAS not finding it likely enough, he automatically lost and (de facto) strict liability was applied.

It's very remarkeble that CAS finally chose the food supplements to be the most likely (or least unlikely) explanation. I can't leave the thought that it (more than anything) was an easy way out. The contaminated food supplement option, unlike the other two theories, wasn't contested as much (you could say it was only secundary, and not really corresponding with facts/data either but more or less left alone) somehow flew under the radar and was used very cleverly by CAS, pretty unexpected, as 'out of the blue'-conclusion.

By doing so, CAS didn't have to make a (more) tough decision, didn't have to choose between meat or transfusion. The door was (left) open to supplements, and therefore strict liability...