The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[Black-Balled]

I watched the tape again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4...Do we need a thread on why SS and Menchov didn't wait too, or can we add them to this thread also?

we need a poll first.

 

[Futuroscope]

If AC did not attack then that means he was not ABLE to attack. It wasn't because he was waiting since he said he did not know Schleck had a problem. Given that, I think it's highly likely that Schleck would have at least had a gap by the top of the mountain. If he worked with the winner he might have been able to keep that gap down the mountain instead of having to do all the work himself and losing 30s.

Of course we cannot know for sure, but my best guess is Schleck would have put about another 20 seconds into Contador today.

no way was andy gonna even gain one second on contador (without the problem).

 

[Biological Entity]

I watched the tape again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4

Ask yourself this, if Contador didn't wait some, how did Menchov and SS catch him?

Precisely. Contador was not on form today and would have been beaten by Schleck. He said he did not wait, but was still easily caught.

 

[Anonymous]

Yeah I ride. And that's what I said, there was a mistake during shifting.
Maybe partly a fault of a mechanic, but in my opinion more Schleck's fault as this problem only occured when shifting at a tense moment. Too much pressure on the chain I assume.

And anyway, what's the difference? Should Contador stop and ask if it was the fault of Andy or of the mechanic? That's none of his business.

Basically what the people say who dislike Contador's action is that everyone should wait for everyone when making a mistake. Maybe the fact that McEwen drops quite early means his father and mother made a little mistake. Should everyone wait? I don't think so. (Oh, please, don't take this comparison seriously )

Fair enough.

Someone mentioned earlier that Bertie better have his whole team stop for him when he takes a piss. That's probably a good observation.

 

[MKirilenko]

I watched the tape again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4

Ask yourself this, if Contador didn't wait some, how did Menchov and SS catch him? Once they caught him, they went through (Contador was looking back before and after they caught him) and Contador latched on. Maybe he should have ridden their wheels, but fact is that he did wait initially because there is no way SS and Menchov were strong enough to go with him when he attacked out of the bunch, why would have they been able to catch him if he were still going full gas?

Look at the tape. Do we need a thread on why SS and Menchov didn't wait too, or can we add them to this thread also?

+1. U put into nicer words the thing, I was trying to say before

 

[phlatties]

agree with Velo. there's no asterisk on respect, scribe. Atleast not that i've heard.

 

[Biological Entity]

no way was andy gonna even gain one second on contador (without the problem).

How was he able to almost catch them up by the top of the climb then?

Contador was the lead man, it was up to him to ease off.

 

[Barrus]

One of my favourite tweets today, by Michel Kreder:

If everybody wait for me in the tour then I can win also?!the Tour is waiting for nobody! Go @albertocontador!

 

[D Avoid]

As a Schleck fan, I'm not really upset with Contador, it's a race and I think if you are competitive at all, you have to take advantage of stuff like that. Dropping a chain happens.

In hockey, if a goalie loses his goal stick, the opposing team sure doesn't stop to give it back, they try to score (and often do). I'll grant you it's not a perfect analogy but it's how I look at it.

Kinda sucks for everyone but you still have to take advantage. The whole thing is gonna be moot anyways, I figure, as AC will put about 2 or 3 minutes into him at the time trial.

Paolo de Canio, an Italian fascist, knows about fair play, the goal keeper collapsed and rather than put it in an unprotected net, he kicked the ball out of play, I never ever thought that I would type the words fair play in this regard, with the name Lance Armstrong in the same sentence, his tweets in regard to this issue will be interesting. Cantador is finished as far as sportsmanship is concerned.


http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1111

To those who don't know about yellow jersey etiquette, can it. The attached video is prophetic, not how he meant though.

http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1097

 

[scribe]

I'll type even more slowly.

It. was. no. mechanical. incident.

Look. We are not discussing the veracity of UFO claims here. And we know Shrek didn't pull up on that advantage to smoke a cigar. He certainly didn't because he was not up to the task physically.

Let's face it. You have to be a little dumb to not know what was going on at that point in the race and pretty low in character to attack it.

 

[Publicus]

To be expected from you.

LOL. Yes scribe, that's me in a nutshell. I definitely see Andy off his bike and on the side of the road when AC decides to attack.

Jeebus, you cats kill me. From the video Andy attacks, Vino responds and starts closing the gap. At the same time you see AC coming out of the pack and closing the gap very quickly. Then Andy looks down and stops his attack.

Now I've seen him do that before. Just like I've seen AC do it as well. Throw down an attack and see that you haven't gotten as large of a gap as you thought and then shut it down. So at this point, AC was supposed to shut it down and just soft pedal, but instead he throws down his own counter-attack.

Andy is still on his bike. He's not unclipped. And AC passes him on the left and never looks back.

That's what I saw in the video. Can someone not wearing AC goggles tell me what I am blind to or interjecting here so that I can be equally outraged at AC's sudden dishonorable behavior?

 

[Ripper]

Lots of haters on here.

Lots of haters and apologists.

I would LMFAO if Menchov won the whole thing now.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

They couldn't shut it down. Contador was blowing the field apart. I think in a world without race radios, this excuse would seem plausible. But it boils down to the character of the opponent.

Wait, no, that's not what happened. You're starting to get carried away.

Look at the video. Seconds after the Contador response to Schleck, Menchov and Sanchez came by and Contador took up 3rd position. Contador was NOT blowing the field apart.

I wish people on both sides of the issue would watch the video a bit more closely. I certainly think the correct response from Contador, Sanchez, and Menchov was to hold up for Schleck, but to say Contador shattered the field when he saw Schleck was down is false.

 

[VeloCity]

One more time for you and I'll type is really slowly so that you understand it completely. Every champion wants to be be shown as the strongest rider over the period of a 3 week race. You do not want to be known as the guy who possibly beat the strongest rider because of a single mechanical incident. Therefore, no one of character will attack in that situation when the road has carefully identified the strongest riders in the race.

One more time for you and I'll type it really slowly: how is that any different than AS not "waiting" for Contador after Contador got caught behind the crashes on St 3? Fits all of your own criteria: Contador's a GC contender, he lost time through no fault of his own (ie caught behind a crash), etc. So let's say AS went on to win the Tour by a minute: by your own definition, then, AS won not because he was the "strongest on the road" but because he took advantage of AC's misfortune on St 3. Still failing to see how this is any different.

But still, I would like to hear an explanation as to why you think AS is worthy of respect while wearing yellow but Chavanel is not.

 

[nowhereman]

EVERY person, and I mean EVERY PERSON that thinks Contador should have waited when Andy suffered a mechanical, is Out of their mind.
THIS IS A RACE we're watching, not a social gathering. Man, this sport is made up of a bunch of wierdos, who all seem to think that they can, and in fact are obligated, to pass judgement on every move that's made, every breathe that's taken. Is that because watching bike racing is like watching paint dry, until the final few kilometers?
Andy didn't fall, a mechanical is a mechanical, and that's just too darn bad. All the nay sayers are absolutely ridiculous, ABSOLUTELY! Issues like these are turning me more away from the sport than doping ever did. Issues like the melodrama with LA and AC last year that escalated, through the media, to monstrous proportions until Grandpa buried a pedal into a curb. Or was Vino really ****ed because Contador is trying to win the biggest race of the year, and his efforts deprived poor old Vino of a stage win, And how proper was that, of Contador to do??? Really, Alberto is almost a Demon from Hell, with nothing but evil thoughts and designs for everyone, as far as his critics are concerned.
Sports competitions are made of capitalizing on opportunities. To think otherwise is naive, hypocritical and just plain stupid. If Andy had fallen I could see the criticism, but that is not what happened. Andy should be pi$$ed at SRAM, not anybody else.
When did this sport become such an etiquette contest? It's a bike race. Fastest man to the end of the route wins, that's it! Wake up Idiots, Wake Up!
BTW does it seem like I'm angry? How astute of you to notice! This sport is populated with too many "unspoken" rules. Most are too negative, and far too many are hypocritical, for my taste.
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It's better to ask for forgiveness,, than to ask for permission.

 

[Arnout]

LOL. Yes scribe, that's me in a nutshell. I definitely see Andy off his bike and on the side of the road when AC decides to attack.

Jeebus, you cats kill me. From the video Andy attacks, Vino responds and starts closing the gap. At the same time you see AC coming out of the pack and closing the gap very quickly. Then Andy looks down and stops his attack.

Now I've seen him do that before. Just like I've seen AC do it as well. Throw down an attack and see that you haven't gotten as large of a gap as you thought and then shut it down. So at this point, AC was supposed to shut it down and just soft pedal, but instead he throws down his own counter-attack.

Andy is still on his bike. He's not unclipped. And AC passes him on the left and never looks back.

That's what I saw in the video. Can someone not wearing AC goggles tell me what I am blind to or interjecting here so that I can be equally outraged at AC's sudden dishonorable behavior?

I can. Comparing Contador to Schleck I'm a bit in favour of Contador normally because of the behavior of Schleck off the bike, but I have no clearcut favorite.

And I say Contador was behaving like he should as a bike racer.

 

[Ripper]

LOL. Yes scribe, that's me in a nutshell. I definitely see Andy off his bike and on the side of the road when AC decides to attack.

Jeebus, you cats kill me. From the video Andy attacks, Vino responds and starts closing the gap. At the same time you see AC coming out of the pack and closing the gap very quickly. Then Andy looks down and stops his attack.

Now I've seen him do that before. Just like I've seen AC do it as well. Throw down an attack and see that you haven't gotten as large of a gap as you thought and then shut it down. So at this point, AC was supposed to shut it down and just soft pedal, but instead he throws down his own counter-attack.

Andy is still on his bike. He's not unclipped. And AC passes him on the left and never looks back.

That's what I saw in the video. Can someone not wearing AC goggles tell me what I am blind to or interjecting here so that I can be equally outraged at AC's sudden dishonorable behavior?

Andy's still on his bike but it is pretty obvious he has a mechanical problem. And yes, I think ACD noticed it when he went by ... it's a pretty easy thing to see in a race.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

When I said the french crowd booed Contador........ this stage is so close to Spain that half the crowd must have been spanish.

Wooooooooopsie.

except that noone booed contador

 

[2wheels]

I watched the tape again: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zcN2HrkrnF4

Look at the tape. Do we need a thread on why SS and Menchov didn't wait too, or can we add them to this thread also?

Contador probably needed a bit of a rest; he had just closed a pretty big gap and attacked through it. But yes, we do need to consider Sanchez and the descent. I think Menchov had every right to ride hard to the summit and try and dislodge Sanchez from third place. Likewise, if Sanchez had been able to drop AC before the summit, then fair enough. But once all three crested the summit together-- and obviously talked it over-- the class move would have been to let AS rejoin.

 

[nvpacchi]

If Andy did truly drop his chain by going from the 53 down to the 39 thats his own fault. Thats a very dangerous shift especially standing at a low cadence. And he lost more precious seconds by not ensuring that he properly fixed his mechanical the first time. Had he done so he would have saved himself an addition 7 to 10 seconds.

Also why not blame everyone who passed Schleck when he dropped? Its foolish to blame AC, DM, and SS when 15 riders passed AS. Save from the first three mentioned no one else was strong enough to gain much more ground, hence why Andy was pass them all again.

If DM and SS have an opportunity to distance themselves from VDB2, Bottle, etc. they have to take it, no fault in what they did.

And AC is not going to wait for AS when 12-15 other riders passed him during rhe mechanical.

 

[Oldman]

Can't happen.

Andy Schleck does not see Menchov and Sanchez as contenders. So they shouldn't be bothered with what happens to Schleck.

Menchov might feel differently about that which was my point. He and Sanchez were the major beneficiaries of gained time under this little drama.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Paolo de Canio, an Italian fascist, knows about fair play, the goal keeper collapsed and rather than put it in an unprotected net, he kicked the ball out of play, I never ever thought that I would type the words fair play in this regard, with the name Lance Armstrong in the same sentence, his tweets in regard to this issue will be interesting. Cantador is finished as far as sportsmanship is concerned.


http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1111

To those who don't know about yellow jersey etiquette, can it. The attached video is prophetic, not how he meant though.

http://www.cyclingfans.com/node/1097

you do know that lance attacked in tour (2003??) when ullrich crashed right??

also you do know lance destroyed the whole field and all his opponents when they crashed in passage du gois in 1999 right??

 

[nvpacchi]

Contador probably needed a bit of a rest; he had just closed a pretty big gap and attacked through it. But yes, we do need to consider Sanchez and the descent. I think Menchov had every right to ride hard to the summit and try and dislodge Sanchez from third place. Likewise, if Sanchez had been able to drop AC before the summit, then fair enough. But once all three crested the summit together-- and obviously talked it over-- the class move would have been to let AS rejoin.

But DM and SS are still fighting for third. They had no idea who was latched onto Schleck's group at the crest of the mountain, they have to distance themselves from all other riders who could spoil their podium position. No fault in pushing on the descent.

 

[Arnout]

Paolo de Canio, an Italian fascist, knows about fair play, the goal keeper collapsed and rather than put it in an unprotected net, he kicked the ball out of play, I never ever thought that I would type the words fair play in this regard, with the name Lance Armstrong in the same sentence, his tweets in regard to this issue will be interesting. Cantador is finished as far as sportsmanship is concerned.

Very nice of the guy. Classy gesture.

Question is: is this the only way to act? If he decided to put the ball into the net, no-one would've objected, because it happens all the time. Defenders make mistakes, strikers score. That's the game.

It was exactly the same today. When making a tactical mistake, you'll be punished inrace, no-one will object because that's racing. And all of a sudden a technical mistake is a whole of a lot different?

 

[saganftw]

the rule is you dont attack when yellow jersey is in trouble (crash,bike change,wheel change) or taking natural break ,doesnt matter if its chavanel or santa claus you just dont attack MJ...you can continue your previous pace but you dont jump out of the saddle and give it all

btw i doesnt have to be MJ,armstrong waited for ullrich after his crash (and vice versa)...ullrich came back LA attacked,but he showed respect for ullrich