The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[scribe]

whats it like...schlecks fanboys are LA fanboys too?

I think this topic has been as neutralized along these lines as the race to Spa.

 

[roundabout]

More like Lance's fans have someone else to root for since Lance has decided to mail in this year's tour.

They'll never get over AC beating their boy last year.

I want to be next, pigeonhole me, please.

 

[hrotha]

I really think in the 10000 posts I have crawled thru so far, this is the point that has been lost. You've just been attacked, you're in full blown catch up mode, "That guy is a jerk!" (or more profane) and suddenly...'ooohhh that jerk has a problem..hahahah.....later sucker"

I really don't think there is a lot of calm cool thinking going on at a moment like that. I like AC and wished that he would have soft pedaled to the top with DM and SS.

I guess if he crushes AS in the time trial, it won't make any difference. The people who were looking for a reason to hate him have just been given an early Xmas present by AC. We'll never hear the end of it. oh well.

You know, others have pointed out AC wasn't giving his all trying to put time on Andy. He looked back an extraordinary number of times, he let Menchov and Samu take pulls (although they might be the ones who benefitted the most from the move, so it'd be in their interest to take pulls regardless), and Andy did make up much of the lost time during the climb.

Last year, in the Grand Bornand stage, when he attacked and dropped Klödi, it looked to me like he attacked more because of a sudden whim in the heat of the race than because of anything he had really thought about, and he realized his mistake immediately. There were lots of looking back and all. I always got the feeling he didn't sprint because he didn't want to bring more attention to himself.

Could it be that he attacked without really thinking about it, partly as a knee-jerk reaction after having been attacked while at the back of the group, and that he soon afterwards regretted it, but by then it was too late to fix it because it would have looked quite silly, since he was the one who attacked in the first place after all, but at the same time he couldn't bring himself to take full advantage of the situation by pulling harder?

Meh, I don't know, this is just silly, baseless speculation. I shouldn't even be hitting the submit reply button.

 

[scottfrasernz]

I think its a mistake for people to call it a mechanical.

A mechanical is when something is actually *wrong* with the bike, eg a flat or some kind of breakage.

Watching Schleck after he remounted, it was clear there was nothing wrong with his bike at all.

I think in his haste to attack he made a duff shift under full power.

I think he deserves some sympathy for making a mistake like that at an inopportune time but I wouldn't see it as justification for nullifying the racing.

Looking back at stages 2 and 3 I saw Saxo taking major advantage from other riders misfortunes. And while those were separate incidents and in the past, there seems to be some hypocrisy at work which isn't helping people look at this relatively minor situation in an objective way.

 

[Speedzero]

I really think in the 10000 posts I have crawled thru so far, this is the point that has been lost. You've just been attacked, you're in full blown catch up mode, "That guy is a jerk!" (or more profane) and suddenly...'ooohhh that jerk has a problem..hahahah.....later sucker"

I really don't think there is a lot of calm cool thinking going on at a moment like that. I like AC and wished that he would have soft pedaled to the top with DM and SS.

I guess if he crushes AS in the time trial, it won't make any difference. The people who were looking for a reason to hate him have just been given an early Xmas present by AC. We'll never hear the end of it. oh well.

I think there is another point being missed. If you see someone go off the road or have a flat, you know they're going to be stopped for a while and that you'd be gaining a real advantage by continuing on. Assuming that AC saw Andy had a problem, was there any reason for him to assume at the second he passed him that it was anything other than a momentary gear-change problem? I think AC kept riding expecting Andy would be right behind him. At what point would AC have learned that in fact Andy spent the better part of a minute screwing around with his chain, and what was the race situation at that point?

 

[saganftw]

I think its a mistake for people to call it a mechanical.

A mechanical is when something is actually *wrong* with the bike, eg a flat or some kind of breakage.

Watching Schleck after he remounted, it was clear there was nothing wrong with his bike at all.

I think in his haste to attack he made a duff shift under full power.

I think he deserves some sympathy for making a mistake like that at an inopportune time but I wouldn't see it as justification for nullifying the racing.

Looking back at stages 2 and 3 I saw Saxo taking major advantage from other riders misfortunes. And while those were separate incidents and in the past, there seems to be some hypocrisy at work which isn't helping people look at this relatively minor situation in an objective way.

i have to repeat

it doesnt matter if it was andys mistake (bad shifting) because AC said he didnt know whats the problem is...if it was puncture AC would have still attacked (because he didnt know it would have been puncture)

 

[Anonymous]

You know, others have pointed out AC wasn't giving his all trying to put time on Andy. He looked back an extraordinary number of times, he let Menchov and Samu take pulls (although they might be the ones who benefitted the most from the move, so it'd be in their interest to take pulls regardless), and Andy did make up much of the lost time during the climb.

Last year, in the Grand Bornand stage, when he attacked and dropped Klödi, it looked to me like he attacked more because of a sudden whim in the heat of the race than because of anything he had really thought about, and he realized his mistake immediately. There were lots of looking back and all. I always got the feeling he didn't sprint because he didn't want to bring more attention to himself.

Could it be that he attacked without really thinking about it, partly as a knee-jerk reaction after having been attacked while at the back of the group, and that he soon afterwards regretted it, but by then it was too late to fix it because it would have looked quite silly, since he was the one who attacked in the first place after all, but at the same time he couldn't bring himself to take full advantage of the situation by pulling harder?

Meh, I don't know, this is just silly, baseless speculation. I shouldn't even be hitting the submit reply button.

Nah, what you write is as plausible as anything else written because none of us are AC or AS. We all just have opinion...and as evidenced by the alarming rate this thread is expanding, we all have A LOT of opinion.

 

[scribe]

I think its a mistake for people to call it a mechanical.

A mechanical is when something is actually *wrong* with the bike, eg a flat or some kind of breakage.

Watching Schleck after he remounted, it was clear there was nothing wrong with his bike at all.

I think in his haste to attack he made a duff shift under full power.

I think he deserves some sympathy for making a mistake like that at an inopportune time but I wouldn't see it as justification for nullifying the racing.

Looking back at stages 2 and 3 I saw Saxo taking major advantage from other riders misfortunes. And while those were separate incidents and in the past, there seems to be some hypocrisy at work which isn't helping people look at this relatively minor situation in an objective way.

You race a certain way when half the peloton falls down on one section of road. You race a certain way when you are on cobbles. And you race a certain way when someone has a mechanical. A passing fan might see hypocrisy in this, but racing is more nuanced than that.

 

[pedaling squares]

I'm late to the party, what a surprise it became about personalities instead of deeds and that Armstrong has factored in about 20% of the posts. My thoughts, for what it's worth:

- Rider error or not, this was clearly a minor mechanical incident with more than enough mountain left for Scheck's rivals to wait, allow him to rejoin them, and then attack him at will.

- Contador was well behind Schleck when it happened and was in a perfect position to see what was going on. Schleck stopped pedaling, all but stopped moving, and looked down at his drivetrain in a universal sign of "Oh crap, my chain is off". TV viewers could tell what happened; pro bike racers mere feet from Schleck were in no doubt whatsoever.

- Contador was ahead of Sanchez and Menchov and veered around Schleck before accelerating. He was not following other dangerous competitors, he was leading the attack and had an opportunity to order a slow down.

- Contador is clearly not telling the truth about what he saw, what he knew, and what he did, which is much worse than attacking Schleck during a mechanical. I'd rather he just said "Too bad, sucks to be you Andy but this is a bike race."

- I don't like what Contador did but to suggest that he lacks class after this move only ignores the numerous classy acts he has shown throughout his career. This guy has put up with a lot of crap and has always taken the high road. He genuinely seems to be a decent guy with the respect of his peers. One minor incident doesn't change that.

- Don't buy into the gospel according to Barney these days, he knows the Schlecks are gonzo and he needs to woo other riders.

- The lost 39 seconds were probably not going to change the outcome of the race.

 

[Benotti69]

Melodrama is reaching unheard of frontiers in this forum

you should see me in the clinic, it's pure horror and gore baby.... I do melodrama for the pussies who are afraid of the clinic

 

[scribe]

I want to be next, pigeonhole me, please.

AC is beyond reproach. This includes you.

 

[reubstarr]

Contador

All my respect for the guy has gone out the door, he wasn't attacking he was following Andy's wheel and saw what happened.
He is not a gentlemen he is a rat!

 

[AtletiSK]

I am going to repeat myself: where were those who are slamming AC when Schleck attacked while his brother was on the ground? Did he wait for the favourites? NO
Did he wait for Maillot Jaune (Chavanel) who had mechanical problems as well during Arenberg stage? NO
Not to mention the day before the whole peloton waited for Andy when his TdF was pracitacally over...
so I believe Andy has no moral right to criticize Alberto who definately would have waited if the circumstances allowed him to... had he waited for AS, Menchov and Sánchez would have won at least a minute on them making it a 4-horse race for Maillot Jaune come the ITT
and I just add that Andy made a mistake today which caused the whole chaos

we all want drama and as a cycling fan I am obviously dissapointed taht only drama we have seen so far was Schleck´s controversial attack in Arenberg and the incident today... what I lacked so far is true cycling and less tactics

 

[smoking roach]

It did not just happen magically. He messed up a shift.

Messed up a shift? No, I'm going to continue to blame SRAM
Long Live Dura-Ace!

 

[reubenr]

i have to repeat

it doesnt matter if it was andys mistake (bad shifting) because AC said he didnt know whats the problem is...if it was puncture AC would have still attacked (because he didnt know it would have been puncture)

This is one of those instances where we should try and stick to the facts and not involve ourselves in conjecture and mind reading. The man missed a gear shift. It happens. Let's be big about it and stop whining.

 

[dolophonic]

And let me also add that if I were AC and I were at the back when my main competitor attacked me, when I went by him struggling with his pedals, I would have thought "Sucks for you." Maybe it is "sporting" to attack when Andy did, but it was a bit of a weasel move, and one good turn deserves another IMO.

As others have also said...
Great point.

There is a lot of fantasy cycling league stuff in this thread.
The reality is Shleck was not dropping anyone, Vino pegged him back so quick and Conta was flying... I think the real issue is as stated by TFF..

 

[saganftw]

i dont blame AC for attacking,i believe he didnt know schelck is having troubles...my problem is his claims that after he knew the troubles he was too far ahead to wait...which is BS imho

 

[Anonymous]

You race a certain way when half the peloton falls down on one section of road. You race a certain way when you are on cobbles. And you race a certain way when someone has a mechanical. A passing fan might see hypocrisy in this, but racing is more nuanced than that.

So you are behind some riders and the only other guy in the race who can beat you attacks you because he knows you will be delayed. You go after him because, hey, that is what you are paid to do. You feel no anger or annoyance? 7 seconds later you see him struggling with his drivetrain. You stop at that point and wait? Come on. Like I said, my thought would have been "sucks for you dude." I am betting in the heat of the moment, many here decrying AC would have done the same thing.

 

[armstrong]

The thing about the previous incidents, is they came at "inconsequential" and "non-critical" moments. This occurred at the guillotine stages of an HC climb - when slight mechanicals can cause enormous (apparent) gaps in time (even if they are just seconds).

This one just happened to be under a microscope. Does suck to be AC, but in terms of arousing the esteem of the cycling world fans, he absolutely should have waited.

 

[sartoris]

you should see me in the clinic, it's pure horror and gore baby.... I do melodrama for the pussies who are afraid of the clinic

Are you suggesting Schleck is a doper?

 

[Anonymous]

As a moderator of a website dedicated to the love of cycling, you should be ashamed of this comment for its complete lack of acknowledgement of the major tradition that was broken in attacking the yellow jersey during a mechanical. Your comment echoes Albertoe's action in terms of lack of class and respect for fair play in competition. Go get yourself some pisTOOLero gear, you earned it.

just because hes a moderator why does he have to have some censored sanitised opinion. If he just spouted what was the right thing to say all the time we would all slate him for not having his own mind.

 

[nia O'Malley]

This is starting to go round in circles

I wonder how many thousand pages would have been written had the internet existed when Hinault required Lemond to wait for him, that day. <giggles>



I also am surprised no one has of yet emitted the hypothesis that Riis fixed Schleck's bike out of spite for leaving him soon and engineered Contador's win to make his future team look better. Are there no tinfoils on this forum?!?

 

[ckendall]

Bad Shift - Chain Suck?

Hard to tell precisely........ but it sort of looked like it happened when he shifted under load while accelerating. If so, not any different than in auto racing. Bad shift ...... Get dusted....

 

[mustachestaff]

It's amazing that people are going out of their way to justify Contador.

Exactly. The level of Contador worship on this forum is absurd. He's no douschestrong, but Alberto's attack, playing dumb during post-race interviews and podium antics, show he's not the class act people believe him to be.

 

[gleejb]

No

In a local Women's race a few weeks ago, a similar thing happened. I missed a shift, with my chain jamming rather than coming off, but pretty much ground me to a halt. This of course happened just as what turned out to the the winning attack was going on. Should M. have waited? Didn't think so at the time and still don't. Its a race and what happened happened just as a crux move was going. Now, if you ask me about if we should have waited for Sa. when she flatted, earlier in the race, I would say yes. But despite my going to the front to slow things down (I'm not even her team mate) people came around me and sped back up. Not St. or L., her two team mates in the race, went back to help or came forward to slow the pack. f.y.i. no one was off the front at the time Sa. flatted. We can't judge what happened today at TdF no matter how many times we watch the video. Could we have heard what was going on with motorcycles and helicopters all around? Did AC have time to look at AS or was he busy navigating through the many crazy obstacles on that climb? What were DM and SS up to? Lighten up folks. and better not to judge when we were not there. There are still enough miles to be ridden for the strongest man to win.