The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[ozymandias]

Can you give me a link of where he does the "trackstand"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Srj8NVfvOFs (skip to 2:50)

They don't literally do a trackstand, but they slowed down so much people were saying that.

 

[Maxiton]

And a stunning amount of guys keep arguing about "sportsmanship" and "unwritten rules" but then twist themselves into knots trying to explain and justify why they only apply to certain riders wearing certain jerseys in certain situations. Still can't figure out why Schleck is more deserving of being treated like a race leader while wearing yellow than is Chavanel.

Hell, little wonder Contador didn't stop, probably took him a good 5 minutes to work out whether or not he was violating any of the byzantine criteria of "unwritten rules" you guys keep coming up with.

Actually, there's an unwritten rule about making posts that are critical of the unwritten rules. Sorry.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk
I wonder also what happens with Contador in 0.34-0.52. From the full mount attack to riding Menchov's wheel. Appears like a cease in attack on purpose.

I think Contador seized the advantage to accelerate his attack, and was followed by Menchov and Sanchez. Then he appears to have thought better of it and sat up a little, just enough so that he was now on Sanchez's wheel. After a bit, though, he seemed to realize that waiting further wasn't the answer (maybe it was his DS yelling in his ear?) and he accelerated again, once again leading his newfound partners, M and S, over the top of the climb.

I can see now how a case could be made for Contador not being obligated to wait. But I can also see how he would have benefited if he had waited: as someone else here said, both the victory AND the adoration.

 

[VeloEcosse]

My tuppence worth

Being a new member today I found myself reading most of the posts on this thread and was very interested to see the very different opinions.

I am afraid that I am a bit of a traditionalist and strongly believe that Contador should have waited. There are some great traditions in cycling and this is one of them. Being able to compete on fair and even ground. If Contador had sat up the majority of the group around him would have done the same. To say that he did not see the problem is a big pile of manure as El Pistolero has been watching Schleck's every move for the longest time after entering the mountains. It's about respect and that is very much a revolving door. What goes around comes around.

Even if you boil it down to the most basic of personal experiences cycling is all about relationships. When you are having a hard day in the saddle on a club run and you need the encouraging hand or voice of your compatriots then it is welcomed and would be expected to be returned on another tough day for somebody else.

Ulrich waited for Armstrong when he had a "mechanical" and they hated each other. Something was lost yesterday on that hill and it now sets a precedent for future behaviour. This threatens the very essence of GT's.

Contador has gone down in my estimation and has been looking desperate for a lot of this tour. I think his greed got the better of him. He claims he didn't know about it until later on...if that was the case why didn't he sit up on the descent instead of treating it like a time trial? Plus if you take into account the fact that Vinokourov was sitting in Schlecks slipstream all the way down reporting back to the Astana car exactly where he was then I think we are talking about something far more sinister than "Oh I didn't realise he had a mechanical problem".

The tactical move I do understand but to try and cover it in a thin veil of ignorance or naivety is insulting to all watching and supporting this great sport.

I have always been a fan of great cyclists and I had assumed Contador was working out to be one of them. However, this may not be the case and I am hoping to be proved wrong.

A reasonably long rant for my first post but I do feel strongly about this subject in general.

 

[53 x 11]

Can you give me a link of where he does the "trackstand"?

I don't know? Can you constantly fail at analyzing races, at using youtube and at having a substantiated signature?














Oh wait, here is a pic of it happening.

 

[Anonymous]

We used to watch this race on the television, before this internet was even invented, if you can imagine that, son.

The point is that even after following the sport for more than a decade, I'm told to shut up and that my opinion is less relevant because I've only been following since 1999. Whatever!

 

[auscyclefan94]

I don't know? Can you constantly fail at analyzing races, at using youtube and at having a substantiated signature?


Oh wait, here is a pic of it happening.

1. I don't
2. You could of kindly posted a link like the other poster did.
3. My sig is fine!
4. The link the other poster gave me showed that both AC and AS did the trackstand.

 

[Dekkalate]

AS screws up gear change..why should AC have to wait??

 

[53 x 11]

1. I don't
2. You could of kindly posted a link like the other poster did.
3. My sig is fine!
4. The link the other poster gave me showed that both AC and AS did the trackstand.

1) LOL!
2) Why bother, you are clearly incapable of using both youtube or a remote control. Im not you mother.
3) LOL!
4)So now you admit that there was a trackstand but get confused because they both are doing it?

Ask yourself which rider needed to gain time before a long TT? You dont gain time by standing still.

You'll notice the photo i took from the roadside of the stage has them both doing a full-wicked-sick trackie anyway.

 

[auscyclefan94]

1) LOL!
2) Why bother, you are clearly incapable of using both youtube or a remote control. Im not you mother.
3) LOL!
4)So now you admit that there was a trackstand but get confused because they both are doing it?

Ask yourself which rider needed to gain time before a long TT? You dont gain time by standing still.

You'll notice the photo i took from the roadside of the stage has them both doing a full-wicked-sick trackie anyway.

2. You said I should go onto youtube and find the link myself and then you said I am incapable of using it. Make up your mind you hypocrite.

4. I never said that they did not slow down but it wasn't a trackstand as they would of fallen off if they did it on a climb.

Even if AS needs time before the tt, still doesn't mean that AC should slow down dramatically with Schleck. Seems stupid that they slowed down as they just should of kept a normal tempo.

 

[53 x 11]

Fact of the matter is that Andy did not take enough time on Contador in the previous mountain stages to eliminate chance, such as 'mechanicals' (like punctures, jammed derailleurs, rubbing brakes, broken spokes), self inficted damage, such as mis-shifting, ending up in a ditch, bad descending and missing a corner and what not.

He actually conceded approximately 1m to Menchov and Sanchez in important TdF stages.

If this happens in the upcoming TT, no one would complain about the rider's actions, but just call it what it is:

"Bad luck"

Andy is motivated to the bone now... Perhaps that's what he needed to distance himself from his main rivals.

Having finally seen it my two pennorth worth

1) Andy schleck needs to learn how to change gear properly
2) It was not a mechanical, it was what they would call in F1 "driver error"
3) It took andy a full ten seconds to even slow down and look at his chain
4) it took him more than 30 seconds to put the chain on after fannying around trying to put it on slack with it on the small chainring

I could have recognised the problem, stopped and fixed it quicker than the 40 seconds it took him. And it was kind of a basic error to start with.

Should contador have stopped, I dont think he had to and I have no problem with him not stopping, it wasnt a puncture, a failed part etc, it was rider error.

However, had he stopped he probably would have got serious karma for it. Similar to a few years ago in a football (soccer) match when the goalkeeper was down and the corner came in, paulo di canio caught the ball and gave it to the ref. He was within his rights to score, but decided to be sporting. AC could have been sporting. That said, if he had, i still think he would have attacked andy further up the hill and kicked his ****.

Andy made a mistake, AC was within his rights to carry on. But seriously, baby schleck needs to learn how to put a chain on. Interestingly both Roche and Hayles or whoever was in the eurosport studio said Andy was crap at putting a chain back on.

one thing i will say, is why is it, on a climb if a leader punctures, has a mechanical its considered polite to wait, but on the cobbles its anything goes.

I'm glad I found these posts. I was beginning to think everyone here was going totally nuts.

Stuffing up a shift like a fred is not a mechanical. Andy has not been racing with his head (some would say he has a lot to learn).

 

[craig1985]

Fact of the matter is that Andy did not take enough time on Contador in the previous mountain stages to eliminate chance, such as 'mechanicals' (like punctures, jammed derailleurs, rubbing brakes, broken spokes), self inficted damage, such as mis-shifting, ending up in a ditch, bad descending and missing a corner and what not.

He actually conceded approximately 1m to Menchov and Sanchez in important TdF stages.

If this happens in the upcoming TT, no one would complain about the rider's actions, but just call it what it is:

"Bad luck"

Andy is motivated to the bone now... Perhaps that's what he needed to distance himself from his main rivals.

Having finally seen it my two pennorth worth

1) Andy schleck needs to learn how to change gear properly
2) It was not a mechanical, it was what they would call in F1 "driver error"
3) It took andy a full ten seconds to even slow down and look at his chain
4) it took him more than 30 seconds to put the chain on after fannying around trying to put it on slack with it on the small chainring

I could have recognised the problem, stopped and fixed it quicker than the 40 seconds it took him. And it was kind of a basic error to start with.

Should contador have stopped, I dont think he had to and I have no problem with him not stopping, it wasnt a puncture, a failed part etc, it was rider error.

However, had he stopped he probably would have got serious karma for it. Similar to a few years ago in a football (soccer) match when the goalkeeper was down and the corner came in, paulo di canio caught the ball and gave it to the ref. He was within his rights to score, but decided to be sporting. AC could have been sporting. That said, if he had, i still think he would have attacked andy further up the hill and kicked his ****.

Andy made a mistake, AC was within his rights to carry on. But seriously, baby schleck needs to learn how to put a chain on. Interestingly both Roche and Hayles or whoever was in the eurosport studio said Andy was crap at putting a chain back on.

one thing i will say, is why is it, on a climb if a leader punctures, has a mechanical its considered polite to wait, but on the cobbles its anything goes.

I'm glad I found these posts. I was beginning to think everyone here was going totally nuts.

Stuffing up a shift like a fred is not a mechanical. Andy has not been racing with his head (some would say he has a lot to learn).

+1,000,000

That basically sums up my feelings on the matter.

 

[Captain_Obvious]

Second.

And Andy chipped in his peleton waiting chips early on the tour.

 

[Hawkwood]

I'm glad I found these posts. I was beginning to think everyone here was going totally nuts.

Stuffing up a shift like a fred is not a mechanical. Andy has not been racing with his head (some would say he has a lot to learn).

I agree. If you have any momentum you can sometimes get the chain back on with the front changer, secondly you can reach down to hook it on with your fingers, finally you can use a chain keeper all of £6.43 online. AS seemed to jam it completely hence the rear wheel jumping up.

 

[Roland Rat]

I am afraid that I am a bit of a traditionalist and strongly believe that Contador should have waited.
[snip]

On this event alone, I would agree with you. However, given Saxo's behaviour on stages 2 and 3, as far as I'm concerned it's now even and Andy Schleck should stop being a whiny little girl.

A reasonably long rant for my first post but I do feel strongly about this subject in general.

Has it happened to you before then? If so, can I guess that it happened some time in the 1980's?

 

[nicholaaaas]

Of course it can, but it is rare. My point is, it is silly to try and build a case that Schleck made a rookie mistake.

Andy Schleck had a mechanical issue due to no fault of his own. Contador, so close and chasing so hard likely would not have recognized it for what it was. Van Den Broeck, Sanchez, and Menchov saw Schleck dismounting, but also saw Contador blasting up the road. I have no problem with any of these riders - they were, after all, doing just what their fans and sponsors would expect, and did what any other competitive pro-peloton athlete would have done given similar circumstances.

either way he handled it horribly. had he kept his cool he wouldn have been back going in half the time. i was about to expect him to pull a move like his team owners al-la 1998. i guess in Jan should have stopped in the ITT too and let Barney win

 

[ozymandias]

The point is that even after following the sport for more than a decade, I'm told to shut up and that my opinion is less relevant because I've only been following since 1999. Whatever!

What you may or may not have figured out by now is that a large percentage of those who post in these forums have an intense hatred of Lance Armstrong. In addition, they do not care to hear an opinion from anyone who does not share this Lance Armstrong hatred. Because you started following the sport in 1999, the year Armstrong won his first TDF, you are tagged as a Lance "fanboy", and everything you say is assumed to be tainted.

 

[nicholaaaas]

Oh, I went by the color of the helmet which looked like Astana. In that case at this moment, and when AS attacked a few seconds prior, AC was in the back of the group, perhaps on a nature call?

I highly doubt he was taking a leak 2k from the top of a climb... whatever he was doing AS took advantage of when he attacked.

that's the real question. what was AC doing not on AS wheel?

 

[El Imbatido]

Having finally seen it my two pennorth worth

1) Andy schleck needs to learn how to change gear properly
2) It was not a mechanical, it was what they would call in F1 "driver error"
3) It took andy a full ten seconds to even slow down and look at his chain
4) it took him more than 30 seconds to put the chain on after fannying around trying to put it on slack with it on the small chainring

I could have recognised the problem, stopped and fixed it quicker than the 40 seconds it took him. And it was kind of a basic error to start with.

Should contador have stopped, I dont think he had to and I have no problem with him not stopping, it wasnt a puncture, a failed part etc, it was rider error.

However, had he stopped he probably would have got serious karma for it. Similar to a few years ago in a football (soccer) match when the goalkeeper was down and the corner came in, paulo di canio caught the ball and gave it to the ref. He was within his rights to score, but decided to be sporting. AC could have been sporting. That said, if he had, i still think he would have attacked andy further up the hill and kicked his ****.

Andy made a mistake, AC was within his rights to carry on. But seriously, baby schleck needs to learn how to put a chain on. Interestingly both Roche and Hayles or whoever was in the eurosport studio said Andy was crap at putting a chain back on.

one thing i will say, is why is it, on a climb if a leader punctures, has a mechanical its considered polite to wait, but on the cobbles its anything goes.

+1000000000000000000

I'd also like to add that if Andy had not burnt his team mates so early then he might have had a team mate remotely close to him to help or give a bike or drag him back to the group or whatever

 

[nicholaaaas]

2. You said I should go onto youtube and find the link myself and then you said I am incapable of using it. Make up your mind you hypocrite.

4. I never said that they did not slow down but it wasn't a trackstand as they would of fallen off if they did it on a climb.

Even if AS needs time before the tt, still doesn't mean that AC should slow down dramatically with Schleck. Seems stupid that they slowed down as they just should of kept a normal tempo.

The trackstand was a great tactical move on AC's part. It did what he wanted... put AS in front on the road and make him work. And he is clearly scuurd of DM cause I highly doubt he was sprinting for 4th place

 

[The Hitch]

lol, journalists can ask the most stupid questions

interviewer: how much time did you lose
AS: 50 seconds
interviewer: is that a lot?

what a stupid question

 

[delgado]

L'Equipe today surmising that Schlecks unprepared switch from (SRAM) Force to Red for yesterdays stage (to shave off more grams obviously), and the consequent unfamiliarity with its workings, may be at the core of his problems.

 

[53 x 11]

2. You said I should go onto youtube and find the link myself and then you said I am incapable of using it. Make up your mind you hypocrite.

4. I never said that they did not slow down but it wasn't a trackstand as they would of fallen off if they did it on a climb.

Even if AS needs time before the tt, still doesn't mean that AC should slow down dramatically with Schleck. Seems stupid that they slowed down as they just should of kept a normal tempo.

Im going to tell you some things that are going to BLOW YOUR MIND.

1) You are a big boy now and I'm sure you can google.

2) Trackstands are much easier when facing uphill

3) It is best to attack from behind. Which is the position AC and Shreck where battling for.

 

[WonderLance]

lance would have waited

 

[Hmmmmm]

Nope. He should not have waited. Maybe Andy was tired and pulled that stunt on purpose. I don't know. I posted in another thread about the fact that this is racing and sh!t happens. I know others feel this way. MJ or not, patron or not, supreme being or not, all is fair in love and war and sport. I feel like this whole sportsmanship and etiquette thing is as bad as political correctness and just keeps getting worse. Nope, he should not have waited. Keep on truckin until you see that 1km to go banner and then pedal even harder.

 

[Big GMaC]

L'Equipe today surmising that Schlecks unprepared switch from (SRAM) Force to Red for yesterdays stage (to shave off more grams obviously), and the consequent unfamiliarity with its workings, may be at the core of his problems.

Why was he even using Force?