The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[czuckerman]

Just wanted to chime in, being somewhat new to the spectator side of things.

I see no reason why Contador shouldn't have continued on, regardless of whether he knew Schleck had mechanical problems or not. This isn't an ethical issue for a racer, it's an ethical issue for fans. A racer's ethos is the win - pure and simple. As a spectator, if you can't accept that racers are necessarily single minded then maybe you should watch something else.

Fans would like to have their cake and eat it too. You want these guys to play politics while they're outputting half the power of a microwave for five hours straight. In addition to that, you love your heros when they make superhuman achievements but want them to just be ordinary guys who never use PEDs or do anything extraordinary to get that 'superhuman' edge over 'ordinary'. No, I see absolutely nothing wrong with the ethos of win, but rather an ethical problem in the collective mind of fans.

Maybe Schleck had mechanical; maybe he mis-shifted and is too embarrassed to admit it; maybe Contador was just blithely following the sprint of his teammate and did/didn't see Schleck having trouble, but who cares? Schleck dropped - and ultimately whether skill, luck, or morality was involved, the outcome is logical.

Just accept cycling as the highly individualized, win focused sport that it is, or spectate a sport like golf where people always have time to be polite.

 

[VeloCity]

A stunning amount of guys keep referencing stage 3 as an indicator of comparable racing. Race the pave with those standards argued for today's stage, and my grandmother could win Paris-Roubaix. There would be no race, as the hazard is paramount.

And a stunning amount of guys keep arguing about "sportsmanship" and "unwritten rules" but then twist themselves into knots trying to explain and justify why they only apply to certain riders wearing certain jerseys in certain situations. Still can't figure out why Schleck is more deserving of being treated like a race leader while wearing yellow than is Chavanel.

Hell, little wonder Contador didn't stop, probably took him a good 5 minutes to work out whether or not he was violating any of the byzantine criteria of "unwritten rules" you guys keep coming up with.

 

[danyela]

Contador should have waited but jeez people have some common sense! What's with all these rubbish ideas 'oh so he should have stopped and helped him' 'yes AC should've soft pedalled up the mountain'. No he shouldn't have, that would have been stupid, but I do not see why he couldn't ride tempo and not attack!

Menchov and Sanchez seemed to be doing that at the beginning and then followed Contador's attack which was so so so disrepectful to the maillot jaune (not to mention desperate as Schleck had actually gapped him at that point).

I feel so sorry for Andy as I don't think he really has much of a chance now, but at least we should see some fireworks in the next two stages.

 

[MKirilenko]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk
I wonder also what happens with Contador in 0.34-0.52. From the full mount attack to riding Menchov's wheel. Appears like a cease in attack on purpose.

 

[egbruce]

CZ, I'm with you. Bicycle racing success is based on many factors, form, mechanics, health and management to name a few of the major components. Andy may have made a mistake shifting under load, or his mechanics may have screwed up the maintenance on the bike. Crap happens. Condemning Contador or anyone else for not waiting is so naive. That is exactly the time to attack and to try and benefit from the misfortune of one aspect of team organization. If Andy "bonked" from personal mismanagement of H2O and food intake would anyone be faulted for not waiting? I think not. The tour crybabies need to get a grip and get on a bike and compete at any level to see that cyclists are cutthroat with even their friends, because that's the way the road is ruled.

 

[danski]

AC was probably going to be scrutinised whatever he did.

Wait and Sanchez and Menchov could gain who knows how much time, or go and get the scrutiny he is getting at the moment.

If Schleck changed gears and his chain fell off because of incorrect bike handling, should AC have to wait? I don't think so.

We will never know properly what happened more than likely.

Definately should spice the race up more though!

 

[RobbieCanuck]

If Contador had waited would Menchov and Sanchez have done the same? I doubt it. It looked to me as though Andy was trying to "kick it up" into a higher cadence and was the author of his own misfortune.

So if Andy caused the chain to derail there was no reason for Contador to wait. Andy claims he would have waited - well we will have to wait and see if that kind of circumstance arises for him in the future if ever. It is easy for Andy to say now he would have waited, but in the heat of the moment with the Tour onn the line, I doubt it.

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

This thread accidentally got moved to the cafe. I am shoving it back where it belongs.

Susan

 

[Fieldsprint]

No easy answers

I've been around bike racing, both as a spectator and competitor, for a long time (20+ years). I understand the unwritten cycling rules well, but this is a difficult one to call.

I think it helps if you put yourself in Contador's position. There is no doubt Contador was flying back up to Schleck when Schleck's chain dropped. By the time Contador probably learned about Schleck's mechanical, he was already going full bore with Sanchez and Menchov up 15 seconds.

Realistically, what was he supposed to do?

Can you imagine him sitting up and trying to convince the others?

"Look guys, we've gained some time here, and I know you guys are battling for podium positions, but we need to wait for Andy. He dropped his chain and it's not fair. Sorry if it brings back Levi, and all of the other podium contenders, but the noble thing to do is wait so we can determine who deserves the top spot on the podium."

Hmm. I dunno, seems like a hard sell. I don't think there is an easy answer here.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

This post is dead on. Andy was either trying to increase his cadence or shift and the chain came off. In track no one would have waited, in a time trial no one would have waited, in a Formula 1 race no one would have waited. Those who think otherwise are being sanctimonious.

 

[Alan D]

AlanD

Contador has no class I hope someone puts him in a ditch.[/QUOT
Contador is ALL class, except the bit of class required to call Menchov and Sanchez and himself to see "who really is the champion amongst us".(See Anquetil and Poulidor wheel to wheel on the Tourmalet to know) For AC to say he didn't know what was going on and that he was basically attacking is BS.. he was close to on the ropes with ASchlecks attack and the replay shows him looking at *** chain as he goes past. I hold that AC's the best in the bunch but he lost my respect by not going to an even high tempo. He went into red zone and so did Menchov (Sanchez was scary relaxed near the top) to make time. It all might be fair ; luck plays a big part...but hell, it would've shown real class to hold things not to a slow, but to a high pace that looked like a deal. Culprit; Schlecks mechanic... He's like the World Cup equipment supplier.. needs his balls kicked. LA is known to be petty and vindictive, but when the chips were down he and Ullrich saluted lady fate and each other a few times in titanic battles where fate intervened, and these are some of the most memorable moments of that era. That's the class AC needs to learn. If he's let Menchov and Sanchez just a few seconds, and AS had teamed up, then you would have seen the battle of all battles. And I think actually that AC would've won, with the glory that he has denied himself.

 

[Donkey]

A full support for Alberto here.
1) in second stage Shleck was not in yellow, Contador waited
2)in third stage Shleck didn't waited and Cancellara moved as fast as he could to make some time on Contador.
3)It's a SaxoBank's fault. Shleck shouldn't have been alone. If Contador had been the one with the problem he would have had Vino to help him.
4)I don't think Shleck was 100% unlucky. His move was not smooth, that caused the problem.
5)It's not two-men-race. Menchov is more dangerous to Contador.
6)I feel sorry for Andy, sht happened as he said himself, on the other hand I don't think the result of the 15's stage will be important for general classification in the end and I don't understand his behaviour because everytime something like that happens it's always on the others whether they decide to wait or not. You don't have a right to stop them.

 

[Marcus Manton]

message to Andy

First swap to Campagnolo. Second, I think Alberto must have realized that you had a mechanical problem. On the video it looks like Vino may have wondered what was up when he went by you. However by the time Alberto went by you it seems pretty unlikely he could not have understood the situation. You were almost at a standstill and looking down at your chainwheel. He could have told Menchov and Sanchez to slow down. But take encouragement from the fact that he did not. I don't think he is a real bad guy. He just couldn't resist taking advantage of the opportunity presented to him. Why? He's scared you can drop him on the Tourmalet X 2. Go for it and it's still possible!

 

[LaBici]

Nimwits

You guys who are dumping on contador re chaingatevdont know diddlybsquat about cycling. Watch the tape again.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

The following discussion is from the poll thread and probably belongs here:



Also note this: In the first frame of that clip you can see AS in the first few moments of his attack, already gapping the group. A few frames later, still at 0:00, you can see Vino reacting while AC is behind Vino and others messing with something in his jersey back pockets since he's riding hands free. At :02 Vino is making progress, while AC is still "no hands".

At :09, you can also see Vino look back, presumably to make sure AC is okay and following, before AS slows and looks down at his gears. At this point Vino is about three bike lengths behind AS. Apparently satisfied by whatever he sees behind, Vino continues with his acceleration and passes the now-slowing AS at :12.

So, here is what we have:

:00 AS is attacking
:00 Vino reacting; AC is "busy" messing with something in his pockets
:02 Vino accelerating to catch AS; AC still busy
:04 AC is done messing around and commences his acceleration.
:06 AC is making quick progress, separated from AS only by Vino
:09 Vino looks back
:09 AS suddenly slows and looks down, presumably when his chain slips off
:12 Vino blows by AS on AS's right and AC has already nearly caught them as his wheel enters the frame.
:13 AC passes AS on AS's left


Clip: www.youtube.com/watch?v=HP9OR-Pz2Yk

I stepped through the linked video frame by frame, and no frame shows AC riding hands free, messing with something in his jersey pocket. If you can post a still that shows that, then I'll believe it, otherwise I will assume you made a mistake.

Not sure how to upload an image, but it's totally clear and obvious in the first few frames.

 

[maxvelocity66]

Eurosport commentators not very objective

I cannot figure out the contradictory views of the Eurosport commentators.

On stage 2, they said it was not sporting for the peloton to go on a riders strike since all the contenders were back in the group already. They said it was a race and the riders should therefore race.

Then in stage 15, they said that Contador should wait for Schleck while he dealt with his mechanical problem.

I wonder what would the commentators view be if Contador (and the rest of the Schleck group) had to wait a while Schleck waited for a bike change which loses valuable time and allow the chasing peloton to catch up? I am sure they would then say what a waste and Contador and the group should not have waited (this a race after all you see).

With the benefit of 20-20 hindsight, we armchair racers can pass judgement but in the end its the professionals who are under intense pressure and riding on the edge for 3 weeks who have to make unpopular decisions in the heat of the moment. Give them a break!

 

[LaBici]

A full support for Alberto here.
1) in second stage Shleck was not in yellow, Contador waited
2)in third stage Shleck didn't waited and Cancellara moved as fast as he could to make some time on Contador.
3)It's a SaxoBank's fault. Shleck shouldn't have been alone. If Contador had been the one with the problem he would have had Vino to help him.
4)I don't think Shleck was 100% unlucky. His move was not smooth, that caused the problem.
5)It's not two-men-race. Menchov is more dangerous to Contador.
6)I feel sorry for Andy, sht happened as he said himself, on the other hand I don't think the result of the 15's stage will be important for general classification in the end and I don't understand his behaviour because everytime something like that happens it's always on the others whether they decide to wait or not. You don't have a right to stop them.

... well said

There is no dishonour to Contador,

The people who dump on him are the ones who drank th LA koolaid and thought that LA was the leader in 2009. BS to that

 

[Ninety5rpm]

Not sure how to upload an image, but it's totally clear and obvious in the first few frames.

Ah, I see under the posting rules it says I "may not post images".

But I got it on tinypic.

This is from the video linked above. You can see Vino has already started accelerating (far left back) in response to AS's attack, while AC is messing around with stuff in his back pockets. There are no hands or arms going from his torso to his handlebars.

CORRECTION: That's not AC riding "no hands", but van de broeck

 

[MacRoadie]

Those who think otherwise are being sanctimonious.

Those who think otherwise do so for a reason, and it's the very same reason the debate even exists in the first place.

That reason is PRECEDENT.

This isn't NASCAR, or Formula One or any other form of auto racing, it's cycling. It's not track or cyclocross either, it's road racing and it's GT road racing.

As long as there has been cycling, there have been hundreds of examples of these "unwritten rules". It's not like someone woke up this morning and pulled the concept out of their @ss 15 seconds after Schleck had his "incident".

Whether or not this was the best example of a situation where this sense of "fair play" was best utilized is definitely debatable (as was the Cancellara-led "neutralization"), but that doesn't mean the concept is without practical merit.

None of these other sports that people want to throw out as analogs posess the same dynamics as road stage racing. People say "well they wouldn't wait for you in NASCAR", and no they wouldn't. In NASCAR, they don't routinely need to rely on the daily inter-team and inter-rider alliances that are formed in stage racing either. They also don't spend 5 or 6 hours every day, 6 inches away from each other, for weeks on end.

I suppose if you're mantra is "if you ain't cheatin, then you ain't tryin" then there's really no debate, but there are more than a few current and former pros who have landed on the side of waiting (under the right circumstances), and the most vociferous voices against the choice to wait seem to be Contador defenders, and guys who probably haven't had the need to rely on a good favor being returned in a professional grand tour.

 

[ozymandias]

Ah, I see under the posting rules it says I "may not post images".

But I got it on tinypic.

This is from the video linked above. You can see Vino has already started accelerating (far left back) in response to AS's attack, while AC is messing around with stuff in his back pockets. There are no hands or arms going from his torso to his handlebars.

That's Van den Broeck (Lotto). You can tell by the red/black/white shorts.

 

[Ninety5rpm]

That's Van den Broeck (Lotto). You can tell by the red/black/white shorts.

Oh, I went by the color of the helmet which looked like Astana. In that case at this moment, and when AS attacked a few seconds prior, AC was in the back of the group, perhaps on a nature call?

 

[auscyclefan94]

"where Andy took advantage of me" -Alberto in his own words from his "please let me explain video..." Seems to me that everyone who knows anything about racing knows the difference between the day on the cobbles and today. Here is a simple observation for Berto...

On the cobbles you where not on Andy's wheel (or even close to it) and this is racing on the cobbles. Today you saw with your own eyes the MJ with something wrong (he had no idea if was flat or dropped chain) and had your team radio telling you. Andy rode smart on the Spa stage. You took advantage of him today. Get a clue and spare us your pathetic PR ploy!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XdOJLuePexs

+1
Your exactly right. Even when AC accelerated past he should of waited as he would of been told but he should not be the scapegoat for all this either. Others were there too. If his apology was sincere after serious thought and not a PR stunt, he will only know but we need to give these guys a break as the tour is fatiguing on the body and the mind.

 

[53 x 11]

HAHA. If they wait for Andy everytime he stuffs up they will never make it to Paris.

I think Andy should have a good look at they way he races, particualy about playing mind games while track standing. Hes been racing for second, and he's got it.

 

[ozymandias]

Oh, I went by the color of the helmet which looked like Astana. In that case at this moment, and when AS attacked a few seconds prior, AC was in the back of the group, perhaps on a nature call?

If Contador had been on a nature call at the time Schleck attacked, that would require a thread 5 times as long as this one. We don't have any video that shows where Contador was. There is no indication from any source that Contador was doing anything besides riding at the time of Schleck's attack.

 

[auscyclefan94]

HAHA. If they wait for Andy everytime he stuffs up they will never make it to Paris.

I think Andy should have a good look at they way he races, particualy about playing bull shit mind games while track standing. Hes been racing for second, and he's got it.

Can you give me a link of where he does the "trackstand"?