The official debate: Should Contador have waited for Schleck?

[Big Doopie]

The cobbles are totally random and the convention is not to wait in the classics, which is why no one *****ed when AC sailed past Armstrong at the side of the road. That's why so many people are against the cobbles inclusion in the tour. But AC wasn't actually held up, he just made a mess of chasing back on.

But it shows you what a class guy AS is because even though he gained out of the situation he still spoke out against the cobbles being in the tour.

did any of the contenders wait for evans when he punctured in the vuelta? no.

as for schlecklet, i appreciate his comments today after he cooled down. but -- as far as i am concerned -- it is the first showing of any class. he made a series of comments that were unbelievably arrogant earlier on in the tour.

why can't cobbles be in the tour? because people puncture? people fall? it's a bike race -- stuff happens. merckx was punched in the stomach which probably cost him a record breaking win. do we stop the race?

it's one thing when the whole peloton is together and one of the favs has a mechanical -- no, you don't then attack. but at the top of a mountain, you have rivals everywhere, your main competitor has just attacked. you are in the process of counter attacking to see if you can put him in difficulty and his chain jumps...

oh, sorry, let me just stop my surge and help you with that young andy...

kinda ridiculous, if you ask me.

 

[reubenr]

Isn't the most important thing to do when laying down an attack in the mountains to shift properly? If I understand this situation correctly, this was a mistake by Andy. Just like it was a mistake by AC to allow himself to be caught out at the back of the pack.

Exactly! This is racing. Stuff happens. The fans need to get a grip. Contador and Schleck are both really great riders. I would be happy for either to win. He was 15 seconds behind at the top and 39 or so at the bottom. Schleck did the best he could. We should all be proud of him. He wasn't robbed. But we should look at the behavior of the French hoi polloi at the awards ceremony. These people need their own forum and should get a grip. To boo Contador is just crazy and to suggest that he is lying about his take of the moment, as some have in this forum, is really just totally bad sportsmanship. What? Nothing bad should ever happen to anyone you favor? We are so lucky this year. At least I thought so until now. I am disappointed with Mr. Schleck's reactions but he was upset, and once he calms down, he will get back to the groove. It is still a horse race. As for Schleck's prediction about the Tourmalet, it was said in anger and could come back to haunt him. Assuming he means the second time around, as the finishing climb, I think we have seen that, done that, so it's not clear what he is talking about.

 

[Biological Entity]

You're telling me that attacking an opponent who is out of position is "a weasel move"?

That makes no sense. That is smart racing. Cancellara attacked when Boonen was out of position at PR, was that "weasel" too.

TFF you generally have good arguments but I think your opinion is biased on this one.

Edit: This may have already been discussed. I came back from a meeting and did not notice the "12" pages that had been added.

TFF has already said on this thread that he would never have forgiven Armstrong is he had done what AC did to Schleck. The guy is trolling.

 

[TahoeNL]

Yeah, they left the team cause Conti had no class. You're so right!

Oh wait, why did they go to Armstrong then? =/

How many of Armstrong's teammates do you think won a stage during his 7 year reign? Ill tell you, only 2.

Gee you must be right... [edited by mod].. but i'm sure your not fanboy cheerleader for AC...

 

[VeloCity]

Have actually addressed the cobbles issue several times.

First of all, AC badly positioned himself at that part of the race - none of the other favourites were caught out - and he made a poor job of chasing back on. But the cobbles are a completely random situation - that's why Schleck himself had the grace to admit they should not be included in the tour. The whole issue was also very early in the tour and the teams have been planning their strategy for time for these mountain stages.

There is a long tradition of not attacking the yellow jersy when he has a mechanical problem on a critical mountain stage - AC and his team will be well aware of this. That's probably why Vino started to wait - but AC went straight to the front and attacked like a mad man.

In St 3, do you suppose that AS knew that AC was caught behind the crashes? Course he did. Did he wait? No, he sat on Canc's wheel and tried to put as much time between him and AC as possible.

There's no difference whatsoever - both were taking advantage of a rival's misfortune that had nothing to do with who was the strongest and in terms of time gained, AS comes out ahead.

This one was just more "obvious" but it's AS who's benefited from taking advantages the most, overall.

 

[BroDeal]

Keep in mind that Biological Entity is BPC, and he should not be responded to.

Report his posts as being a new incarnation of BPC, so that the mods can get rid of him.

 

[rinnyrusso]

I just think it's funny that Contador thinks people to expect him to stop or keep attacking. How many times has groups of pelleton slowed down or done no attacks, even in this tour, allowing people in lead position to catch up or because they find something un-justice. I get he could not stop in his tracks, however he saw (no matter what he says) something happen to Andy and for sure knew something in those last 10 plus km to go, but he didn't not halt any speed. If anything was going stronger. I'm with Andy with his interview soon after the stage end, he can't say if it's right or wrong, but he would not have ridden that way. And that is what makes him a classy and true compeditor of this tour. Go Andy, Go!

 

[indurain666]

At the end of the day El Pistolero shot himself in the foot.

Yes he may win the Tour but he has lost the respect of a lot of fans.

Nope, he gets plenty of respect from all his fans, including me . He ****ed a lot of LA fanboys like you...but you guys don't count...cause you have never been his fan.

The other thing, AC races bicycles for a living and LA fanboys/frenchies like you don't sponsor him, so he couldn't care less....

 

[VeloCity]

Keep in mind that Biological Entity is BPC, and he should not be responded to.

Report his posts as being a new incarnation of BPC, so that the mods can get rid of him.

Seriously?? Am I going to get suckered in EVERY time?

 

[nicholaaaas]

Here's how I saw it from watching the video... Andy had a decent gap... Alberto was no where to be seen. Vino looks like he was going to bridge when Andy came almost to a complete halt and was looking down at his chain rings. Vino went straight by him and then all of a sudden you see Alberto go around Andy (rear camera view). I have to believe that there were a few seconds where Alberto saw Andy almost standing still.

For a guy with as many miles in his legs as Alberto, he had to have some idea that something was wrong...

you could see right before his chain came off AC was already rapidly closing the gap. let's be real.

But I think we can all agree the pistol on the podium was in poor taste

 

[MonteCristo]

Someone named "Bob" over at velonews had this to say, maybe it will put some things into perspective for some people:

"I just launched a massive attack to get time on you, sorry but my chain slipped so all of you please stop racing while I regroup so I can attack you again.

I feel for Andy but come on, racing is racing and if it were reversed would Andy have honestly waited for Alberto?

The real shame in all of this is another controversy in the TDF"

On another note, there is still a way for Alberto to "save face" and win the public over, on the final TT he can wait an extra 39 seconds after his start time in the start house in honor of AS for his public-perceived error.

Personally I still think AC will crush him.

 

[Selector]

I offer an opinion: the maillot jaune is merely an indicator of who has the least accumulated time aggregated over the course of several discrete races during the tour. On any one day, things change and the lowest accumulated time gets credit for the jersey. But each day, each race, gets a winner, those that 'place' and those who 'show'. On any one day, each competitor is responsible for giving a creditable performance. When you are one of the top four or five potential winners, you have to do your best, and sometimes happenstance gets in the way..a flat, bad guts, bad legs...and the chips fall where they may, so-to-speak. It would be no different in a foot race or in a car race, on the road or on an oval. Car breaks, race done for the day...period.

As much as I am personally pulling for Andy, and cheering him on, this is the way the cookie crumbles. Contador had already launched his counter to Schleck's initial challenge, and he was well within the spirit and intent of the race to continue to press to the top of the climb. Andy did what he could to do that, and so did Contador. Poo happens. That's show-biz, as the thespians say.

 

[schnebit]

The problem was the front shifter, the one that is affected by pressure on the pedals while shifting. When you try to shift with too much load the chain can come off. Rider error, not mechanical problem.

Going from your little ring to your big ring? I've had it happen the other way around (also didn't help that my stops weren't set right), but not going from your little ring to your big ring... It didn't drop around his crank, it went between the little ring and bottom bracket.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

what is AC menchov and sanchez using?

AC has the SRAM Red cassette. He's riding the Red LTE group.

I'm assuming Menchov is using Dura-Ace, same with Sanchez.

 

[WindLessBreeze]

LanterneRouge

I must admit I'm quite dissapointed at the way things turned out today. An unwritten rule was broken: DoNotAttack when the LEADER has a mechanical difficulty. Contador still had a team mate, Il Vino, while Andy was stuck alone in the high mountains, as his team is made up of guys for the classics and flat stages. Thumbs down for Alberto, Samuel, and Menchov. Contador is an stronger ITT rider, and should have been able to get plenty of time on the long ITT ahead. The fact of the matter is that now I'll put an asterisk on the 20G's he will receive each day in yellow until he shows, beyond any reasonable doubt, that he can drop Andy. I shall no longer root for him, and neither will my son Cristian, a kiddo expert in the art of telepathy &telekinetics.PERIOD

 

[El Pistolero]

I just think it's funny that Contador thinks people to expect him to stop or keep attacking. How many times has groups of pelleton slowed down or done no attacks, even in this tour, allowing people in lead position to catch up or because they find something un-justice. I get he could not stop in his tracks, however he saw (no matter what he says) something happen to Andy and for sure knew something in those last 10 plus km to go, but he didn't not halt any speed. If anything was going stronger. I'm with Andy with his interview soon after the stage end, he can't say if it's right or wrong, but he would not have ridden that way. And that is what makes him a classy and true compeditor of this tour. Go Andy, Go!

Just because he said that doesn't mean he would have done it. As a matter of fact, he proved that he wouldn't have done it on stage 3. What a classy liar yeah.

 

[Big Doopie]

Have actually addressed the cobbles issue several times.

First of all, AC badly positioned himself at that part of the race - none of the other favourites were caught out - and he made a poor job of chasing back on. But the cobbles are a completely random situation

um...this is simply not what i saw at all.

apart from the riders that made the very front group, every other main contender was held up by that crash. every single one. all news reports said that it was frank's fall that split the peloton. and then canc put on the gas to just make sure.

ac did a wonderful and rapid return to the front posts of the chase. even the tv and the commentators did not realize that he was right behind armstrong already when they said he was a minute or so back.

the cobbles are random?

bike racing is random.

it's one of the things that makes it dramatic to watch.

otherwise, you might as well put them on a trainer with a power meter and give the yellow jersey to the one with the most watts.

at least that way no one will get hurt...jump their chain...and get their feather all in a ruffle.

 

[Hugh Januss]

TFF has already said on this thread that he would never have forgiven Armstrong is he had done what AC did to Schleck. The guy is trolling.

That is rich coming from you.

 

[schnebit]

you could see right before his chain came off AC was already rapidly closing the gap. let's be real.

But I think we can all agree the pistol on the podium was in poor taste

He rapidly closed the gap because Andy was practically standing still at that point! But yes, pistol on the podium was in poor taste.

 

[Throbbobank]

It is the duty of Americans to ensure people from a "european" nation with such illustrious cycling palmares as Britain know about these things. When was the last time you guys won the TdF? I seem to have forgotten.

You must be so very proud lol At least our contendors have the decency to expire on the bike rather than end up in nasty Grisham courtroom melodramas

and yes, I'm European and proud of it

 

[nicholaaaas]

Have actually addressed the cobbles issue several times.

First of all, AC badly positioned himself at that part of the race - none of the other favourites were caught out - and he made a poor job of chasing back on. But the cobbles are a completely random situation - that's why Schleck himself had the grace to admit they should not be included in the tour. The whole issue was also very early in the tour and the teams have been planning their strategy for time for these mountain stages.

There is a long tradition of not attacking the yellow jersy when he has a mechanical problem on a critical mountain stage - AC and his team will be well aware of this. That's probably why Vino started to wait - but AC went straight to the front and attacked like a mad man.

I guess what you meant to say is YOUR favourite didn't get caught out. who didn't AS and Evans that's it. the crash was at the front of the peleton on stage 3. Frank wasn't a favourite? Basso? who were the favourites who didnt get caught out on stage 3?

 

[{the_crow}]

As mentioned in the race thread, Andy never waited after the cobbles mess for alberto, so why should alberto wait for andy here? They are both cases of Sh!t happens when u veiw it like this.

Dont recall neither of them beeing in yellow at that particular time.. and i dont recall seeing a half of duzen riders in a mess.. i remember bunches!

About the episode
Alberto was going to crack.. he didnt have the legs.. it was clear.. andy attack was going to break him.. you can even see that first to react is vino.. then menchov and the others.. when the chain breaks.. Alberto was way back.. to catch Andy's wheel.. ok .. he had vino to help.. but vino would have to wait and lose also Andy's wheel..

 

[alberto.legstrong]

Here are Schleck's words after he cooled down, for those who are getting carried away:

I'm not going to cry because I lost the MJ. My legs are itching, the Tour isn't over. Things like that are motivating me more.

I was feeling really well today, mechanicals do happen

They waited for me in Spa, it was just. Today was different though.

I am in the same situation as last year except I am much stronger this year.



http://www.lavoixdessports.com/Spor...ndy-schleck-une-scene-pareille-ca-me-mo.shtml

this ought to stop the argument dead in its tracks, but it won't. the only issue I have is that it wasn't a mechanical, but if it had been me, I'd call it a mechanical too out of pride/embarrassment.

Folks are getting a bit carried away, but let the passions burn. It is a fine reflection of how near and dear cycle racing is to so many people. I am enjoying it.

I would venture that long before the motion camera started following every inch of the race there were some nasty incidents that were much less classy than this, (and probably do to this day that we never see). But I have to say, A) It would have been nice had AC allowed him to catch on at the top, AS still descends like s1iht and it would have been at best a 10 second lead still for AS.

As it is, we are now assured of seeing a lot of fireworks from here thru saturday. I hope AC smokes the TT just to shut the AC haters down. And I am sure AS's fans are hoping for just the opposite.

i think in general we are too obsessed with form. I like the toughness and brutality of sport. This anin't little league where we are trying to build socialization skills and maybe some sports fundamentals and everyone gets a trophy and a juice pouch. this is the real deal. 'they don't ask how. they only ask how many.'

 

[Biological Entity]

did any of the contenders wait for evans when he punctured in the vuelta? no.

What happens in a different tour is irrelevent really. The tour has its own traditions.

as for schlecklet, i appreciate his comments today after he cooled down. but -- as far as i am concerned -- it is the first showing of any class. he made a series of comments that were unbelievably arrogant earlier on in the tour.

I don't think you understand him - his WWE talk is just talking up the race. He never actually personally attacks anyone and has, if anything, been too passive on the road until this tour. He still caved in to AC and decided to work with him after AC complained about being attacked in the previous days - i hope he has learnt his lesson now.

why can't cobbles be in the tour? because people puncture? people fall? it's a bike race -- stuff happens. merckx was punched in the stomach which probably cost him a record breaking win. do we stop the race?

Reasonable people can disagree about it, but the classics have a different tradition and are geared to a different mentality to the tour. It's a one day event where you cannot exchange favours in the same manner.

it's one thing when the whole peloton is together and one of the favs has a mechanical -- no, you don't then attack. but at the top of a mountain, you have rivals everywhere, your main competitor has just attacked. you are in the process of counter attacking to see if you can put him in difficulty and his chain jumps...

I can't believe the team did not tell him the situation on the radio. Given how sporting Schleck has been to AC in the past, one might have expected him to return the favour.

 

[El Pistolero]

I must admit I'm quite dissapointed at the way things turned out today. An unwritten rule was broken: DoNotAttack when the LEADER has a mechanical difficulty. Contador still had a team mate, Il Vino, while Andy was stuck alone in the high mountains, as his team is made up of guys for the classics and flat stages. Thumbs down for Alberto, Samuel, and Menchov. Contador is an stronger ITT rider, and should have been able to get plenty of time on the long ITT ahead. The fact of the matter is that now I'll put an asterisk on the 20G's he will receive each day in yellow until he shows, beyond any reasonable doubt, that he can drop Andy. I shall no longer root for him, and neither will my son Cristian, a kiddo expert in the art of telepathy &telekinetics.PERIOD

Oh, so your son is an expert in being a fraud? Thumbs down for your son.