The Official LANCE ARMSTRONG Thread 2010-2011

[ImmaculateKadence]

Do you know what Patrick.... your post from yesterday made me mad - it has really pissed me off.

I have gone toe to toe with 'Kurtinsc' - and I think it's fair to say we respectfully disagree on a few points.
However - I think the LAF and what Doug Ulman (a 3 time cancer survivor!!) and the people who work at the LAF have done is simply magnificent and a great resource. My skepticism should not be looked at as to dismiss their contribution and achievements.

I have checked some sites to see if the 'LAF' is a well run charity- as with all things, looking at year to year figures can look as though for some years it is not achieving its financial goals - but looking at its overall impact I believe it is a well run charity.

We should not forget that when Lance was diagnosed with cancer in 1996 that there was little talk of testicular cancer .
Amongst men it was simply not discussed.
For highlighting his own struggle witht testicular cancer Lance is to be commended. For getting back on a bike he is to be commended, for living the life of a Professional cyclist he is to be commended, for finishing 15th in the Ruta de Sol in his first year back he had me doing cartwheels.

But what has happened over the last 2 years in my personal opinion is disgraceful.

Setting up a 'for profit' site on health and well being is a smart and innovative move - however Lance should not in any way, however small, personally profit - all profits should be directly routed to the LAF, simple as.
And before someone says 'legal issues' Lances right handman isBill Stapelton a lawyer, and quite simply he does what Lance tells him to do.

Lance announced his return to cycling in September 2008 - however it was to have been an exclusive in Vanity Fair.
He had called the journalist to his home (in August '08)- the journalist at one point believes LA's cancer has returned- but no, the invitation was to announce "something huge, I’m going back to professional cycling. I’m going to try and win an eighth Tour de France" .. not because of cancer awareness but because "..It’s not a secret. I mean, the pace was slow."

Ultimately - it is my view that Lances return had little to do with 'cancer awareness' - if it was then he should do his 'twitter rides' in every major city, getting their PMs or Presidents to ride too. Point to point from one cancer centre to another and charge people say $10 dollars to ride - with the proceeds going to those local charities.
This would have both a local and ultimately the global impact that Lance said his return would create.

Some other key points from that interview:
• To insure his return to the Tour he has called French President Sarkozy"I’ve already put a call in to him".
• The Global Conference is scheduled for Paris in July- “France is an important country... So you start there, and obviously you’re at the hub of Europe. And you can have tons of involvement from leaders there [and] why wouldn’t you have the president of the United States there?”
• However, the 'Global Conference' was in Dublin, Ireland - the Irish Prime Minister - Taoiseach - didn't even attend and he is based a mile away from where the conference was held!
• The 'Global Conference' is held just after Lance competed in a shortened Tour of Ireland where he received a large appearance fee.
• Lance posts a video prior to the Giro d'Italia – to rid Italy of the stigma of Cancer, but then stops talking to the press when they highlight his $2million appearance fee.


Patrick, your posts on this thread have done more in ‘raising awareness’ about this despicable disease than Lances globe trotting of the last 2 years.
I know you wrote previously that you were struggling with ‘survivors guilt’.
My observation is that you didn’t get cancer – cancer got you. But because you understand your body you sought help immediately, because you are well liked you were able to network with others to seek the correct treatment. And because you had looked after yourself physically the Doctor was able to put you on an aggressive treatment.
That’s not luck – that was cancers mistake in picking you……….

I skimmed over your post and had to respond to this point, as this one of my biggest criticisms of Lance.

I'd assume Lance is pulling a salary from the Foundation. He also makes tons of money in endorsements. I would like to see him take a percentage equal to his salary from the "for profit" side or an annual percentage of some sort, say around 30-40 percent (if not more) and donate that to the LAF (like a tithe of sorts). I'm sure he still will have have several million to support his lifestyle and family.

EDIT: My bad on the double post

 

[thehog]

I skimmed over your post and had to respond to this point, as this one of my biggest criticisms of Lance.

I'd assume Lance is pulling a salary from the Foundation. He also makes tons of money in endorsements. I would like to see him take a percentage equal to his salary from the "for profit" side or an annual percentage of some sort, say around 30-40 percent (if not more) and donate that to the LAF (like a tithe of sorts). I'm sure he still will have have several million to support his lifestyle and family.

EDIT: My bad on the double post

If it makes us feel better LAF spent 1.2 million on travel last year of which 80,000 was on the program. Look forward to the 2010 figures. The jet sure burns the fuel.

 

[thehog]

Excellent post.

When the comeback was announced with the "zero salary" clause and "I'm doing this for them" I actually thought he'd softened and wanted to give it a go in a newly less drug fuelled peloton.

But once the 2009 TDU rolled around and the confusion over the one million payment came up I started to smell a rat. With the dropping of the Catlin program it became evident nothing had changed. In fact it had become much much worse. In light of some of the efforts made by ASO to cleanse the sport we've all gone back to 1998 and it will another 8 years to get back to 2008 as exampled by the trapping of Beltran.

Do you know what Patrick.... your post from yesterday made me mad - it has really pissed me off.

I have gone toe to toe with 'Kurtinsc' - and I think it's fair to say we respectfully disagree on a few points.
However - I think the LAF and what Doug Ulman (a 3 time cancer survivor!!) and the people who work at the LAF have done is simply magnificent and a great resource. My skepticism should not be looked at as to dismiss their contribution and achievements.

I have checked some sites to see if the 'LAF' is a well run charity- as with all things, looking at year to year figures can look as though for some years it is not achieving its financial goals - but looking at its overall impact I believe it is a well run charity.

We should not forget that when Lance was diagnosed with cancer in 1996 that there was little talk of testicular cancer .
Amongst men it was simply not discussed.
For highlighting his own struggle witht testicular cancer Lance is to be commended. For getting back on a bike he is to be commended, for living the life of a Professional cyclist he is to be commended, for finishing 15th in the Ruta de Sol in his first year back he had me doing cartwheels.

But what has happened over the last 2 years in my personal opinion is disgraceful.

Setting up a 'for profit' site on health and well being is a smart and innovative move - however Lance should not in any way, however small, personally profit - all profits should be directly routed to the LAF, simple as.
And before someone says 'legal issues' Lances right handman isBill Stapelton a lawyer, and quite simply he does what Lance tells him to do.

Lance announced his return to cycling in September 2008 - however it was to have been an exclusive in Vanity Fair.
He had called the journalist to his home (in August '08)- the journalist at one point believes LA's cancer has returned- but no, the invitation was to announce "something huge, I’m going back to professional cycling. I’m going to try and win an eighth Tour de France" .. not because of cancer awareness but because "..It’s not a secret. I mean, the pace was slow."

Ultimately - it is my view that Lances return had little to do with 'cancer awareness' - if it was then he should do his 'twitter rides' in every major city, getting their PMs or Presidents to ride too. Point to point from one cancer centre to another and charge people say $10 dollars to ride - with the proceeds going to those local charities.
This would have both a local and ultimately the global impact that Lance said his return would create.

Some other key points from that interview:
• To insure his return to the Tour he has called French President Sarkozy"I’ve already put a call in to him".
• The Global Conference is scheduled for Paris in July- “France is an important country... So you start there, and obviously you’re at the hub of Europe. And you can have tons of involvement from leaders there [and] why wouldn’t you have the president of the United States there?”
• However, the 'Global Conference' was in Dublin, Ireland - the Irish Prime Minister - Taoiseach - didn't even attend and he is based a mile away from where the conference was held!
• The 'Global Conference' is held just after Lance competed in a shortened Tour of Ireland where he received a large appearance fee.
• Lance posts a video prior to the Giro d'Italia – to rid Italy of the stigma of Cancer, but then stops talking to the press when they highlight his $2million appearance fee.


Patrick, your posts on this thread have done more in ‘raising awareness’ about this despicable disease than Lances globe trotting of the last 2 years.
I know you wrote previously that you were struggling with ‘survivors guilt’.
My observation is that you didn’t get cancer – cancer got you. But because you understand your body you sought help immediately, because you are well liked you were able to network with others to seek the correct treatment. And because you had looked after yourself physically the Doctor was able to put you on an aggressive treatment.
That’s not luck – that was cancers mistake in picking you……….

 

[patricknd]

I found both the LiveStrong.org and Livestrong.com websites full of hope, healthful advice, inspiration, and lots and lots of informative links.

Did not find any spite or hate or jealousy or nastiness at all...well, there were a couple trolls on the forums there sigh.

In the the FAQ link on the .com site - it explains the difference between the two sites. One is for profit, the other non-profit. 2009 was a tough year for most "for profit" and "non-profit" organizations. Would not suprise ME if the LiveStrong ones did OK last year however.

patricknd - scary story, you are one tough cookie.

Anyway, Lance also has a webite for his bike shop:
http://www.mellowjohnnys.com/theshop.php



Lance is one busy dude lol - a modern day Odysseus.

not tough just lucky so far

Do you know what Patrick.... your post from yesterday made me mad - it has really pissed me off.

I have gone toe to toe with 'Kurtinsc' - and I think it's fair to say we respectfully disagree on a few points.
However - I think the LAF and what Doug Ulman (a 3 time cancer survivor!!) and the people who work at the LAF have done is simply magnificent and a great resource. My skepticism should not be looked at as to dismiss their contribution and achievements.

I have checked some sites to see if the 'LAF' is a well run charity- as with all things, looking at year to year figures can look as though for some years it is not achieving its financial goals - but looking at its overall impact I believe it is a well run charity.

We should not forget that when Lance was diagnosed with cancer in 1996 that there was little talk of testicular cancer .
Amongst men it was simply not discussed.
For highlighting his own struggle witht testicular cancer Lance is to be commended. For getting back on a bike he is to be commended, for living the life of a Professional cyclist he is to be commended, for finishing 15th in the Ruta de Sol in his first year back he had me doing cartwheels.

But what has happened over the last 2 years in my personal opinion is disgraceful.

Setting up a 'for profit' site on health and well being is a smart and innovative move - however Lance should not in any way, however small, personally profit - all profits should be directly routed to the LAF, simple as.
And before someone says 'legal issues' Lances right handman isBill Stapelton a lawyer, and quite simply he does what Lance tells him to do.

Lance announced his return to cycling in September 2008 - however it was to have been an exclusive in Vanity Fair.
He had called the journalist to his home (in August '08)- the journalist at one point believes LA's cancer has returned- but no, the invitation was to announce "something huge, I’m going back to professional cycling. I’m going to try and win an eighth Tour de France" .. not because of cancer awareness but because "..It’s not a secret. I mean, the pace was slow."

Ultimately - it is my view that Lances return had little to do with 'cancer awareness' - if it was then he should do his 'twitter rides' in every major city, getting their PMs or Presidents to ride too. Point to point from one cancer centre to another and charge people say $10 dollars to ride - with the proceeds going to those local charities.
This would have both a local and ultimately the global impact that Lance said his return would create.

Some other key points from that interview:
• To insure his return to the Tour he has called French President Sarkozy"I’ve already put a call in to him".
• The Global Conference is scheduled for Paris in July- “France is an important country... So you start there, and obviously you’re at the hub of Europe. And you can have tons of involvement from leaders there [and] why wouldn’t you have the president of the United States there?”
• However, the 'Global Conference' was in Dublin, Ireland - the Irish Prime Minister - Taoiseach - didn't even attend and he is based a mile away from where the conference was held!
• The 'Global Conference' is held just after Lance competed in a shortened Tour of Ireland where he received a large appearance fee.
• Lance posts a video prior to the Giro d'Italia – to rid Italy of the stigma of Cancer, but then stops talking to the press when they highlight his $2million appearance fee.


Patrick, your posts on this thread have done more in ‘raising awareness’ about this despicable disease than Lances globe trotting of the last 2 years.
I know you wrote previously that you were struggling with ‘survivors guilt’.
My observation is that you didn’t get cancer – cancer got you. But because you understand your body you sought help immediately, because you are well liked you were able to network with others to seek the correct treatment. And because you had looked after yourself physically the Doctor was able to put you on an aggressive treatment.
That’s not luck – that was cancers mistake in picking you……….

thanks, i don't know that i've done anything but i do like to make sure that people remember that at the end of the day the important thing is that someone like me got some help when they needed it.
laf is way more than lance armstrong. i think he is to be commended for what he started, but it's way bigger than him now.

i personally think that the whole .org .com thing is way too blurry, and i don't care for such goings on. even if everything thing is completely aboveboard, you still appear to be on shaky ground. i know that the argument is that branding is important in drawing money to the charity, but for me it still smells bad, and i think having the two so close is a mistake. but that's just my 2 cents on it all.

 

[BYOP88]

I find the fact that there are a couple people who cannot resist the urge to respond to such a disruption aggravating. RR and BYOP, if you can't ignore it then take it to pm and it will eventually wander off to haunt someone else's house.

Normally, even with a recent 'bannee', I didn't mind the engagement. But this is too disruptive. STOP FEEDING HIM. The baiting isn't even that clever; his level of humorlessness is where I draw the line.

Sorry dude, will not happen again I promise

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

...The lines between Lance and the LAF are very solid. A small amount of reading shows that to be the case...

I think you are correct that LA and LAF are quite separate legally. But LA is constantly seen wearing LAF branded (Livestong) gear, and the charity name and its brand are both based on LA's name. Plenty of people are going to be confused about whether a certain product is being endorsed by LAF...or by LA. Is that the whole point of the way its been set up? Or is LA providing some advertising for LAF whenever he can? It's all conveniently vague; chapeau to the legal team.

...Lance is definitely profiting from his association with the LAF. But the money doesn't come from the LAF. It comes from being hired by companies that purchase the right to display the "Livestrong" logo to promote the products... ...... Lance is often getting hired by those companies as a spokesperson, so he is profiting... but it's not coming from the LAF's chunk...

+1 except for the last phrase. It might come from LAF's chunk if Livestrong brand and LA endorsements are competing for a limited marketing budget. Obviously the brand and endorsement complement each other to some extent; but where is the line between complement and compete?

It would be utterly fascinating to find out the ratio between LAF income on Livestrong brand products and LA income on endorsing those products. That would tell us a lot about LA's motivation and ethics with the whole cancer charity thing. I would like to bet a couple of grand that the amount LA gets paid for endorsements is protected by some kind of privacy agreement...any takers?

...And how does one purchase a healthy eating plan from the livestrong.com site. How does one purchase ANYTHING from the site. I've spent the last 10 minutes navigating the site trying to find any screen (aside from an advert) where I might buy something and I'm not seeing it.

I did that yesterday after reading this thread and didn't find anything either. If Demand was retailing Livestrong brand products on the .com site, I believe it would be a conflict of interests.

Lance isn't an exclusive spokesman for the LAF. They don't pay him a dime. He's a spokesman for companies like Trek and Nike, who also happen to have purchased some rights to use the Livestrong brand in different scenarios.

Are you sure he's never a paid spokesman for LAF? In NZ, trustees can be hired by the charitable trust as long as they are not paid above market rates. It's standard practice to take further steps to avoid any hint of conflict of interest, but in principal it's legal. Not arguing, just asking...don't have any idea how this works in the states.

 

[thehog]

To clarify some points. The LAF is two entities. It is te LAF and it's LAFE. The E is the investment fund part. You don't see what happens in the E part. At a guess it invests the donations for periods of time takes the profit then gives back the donation to LAF. Now the interesting bit. The LAF in 2005 bought the right to use the Livestrong name. What did the LAF pay? $500,000 and also pays an yearly fee to Livestrong for the name. So Lance used his chairty to pay his private company for the use of his own name and services? It goes on. The LAF pays program & consultant fees to Livestrong for further use of the name and "expert" advice from Lance and the Livestrong consultants. When Lance travels and speaks LAF pay his exspenses via Livestrong as "consultant" / "professional services".

So why does Lance ask that race organisers pay him and not drive the funds through LAF:livestrong?

That can be the next exciting installment in this very interesting story.....

 

[kurtinsc]

To clarify some points. The LAF is two entities. It is te LAF and it's LAFE. The E is the investment fund part. You don't see what happens in the E part. At a guess invests the donations for periods of time takes the profit then gives back the donation to LAF. Now the interesting bit. The LAF in 2005 bought the right to use the Livestrong name. What did the LAF pay? $500,000 and also pays an yearly fee to Livestrong for the name. So Lance used his chairty to pay his private company for the use of his own name and services? It goes on. The LAF pays program & consultant fees to Livestrong for further use of the name and "expert" advice from Lance and the Livestrong consultants. When Lance travels and speaks LAF pay his exspenses via Livestrong as "consultant" / "professional services".

So why does Lance ask that race organisers pay him and not drive the funds through LAF:livestrong?

That can be the next exciting installment in this very interesting story.....

Can you provide a link about the LAF paying anything for the livestrong brand? Can you provide a link showing Lance recieves consulting fees or salary from LAF?

I can find no evidence of this.

You also keep refering to a "livestrong" entity. Again... there is NO SUCH THING. You cannot be paid anything by livestrong. You can't get a job from livestrong. You cannot sue livestrong. YOu can't funnel money through livestrong. Livestrong is not a legal entity... it's a BRAND.

You can sue Nike. You can't sue "Air Jordans". Nike is the company. Air Jordan is a brand owned by that company.

If you mean to use another company name when you say "livestrong"... please use that name. Right now your statements make no sense.

As for the "LAFE"... I assume you mean the Lance Armstrong Foundation Endowment. That is a 501c3 as well. All the records are also available. It doesn't do what you claim. Rather it allows people who want to make a "named donation" in excess of 25,000 dollars that will continuously generate income to the LAF to do so. Essentially, people who lose loved ones to cancer will give the LAFE a bunch of money, and they'll distribute the investment profits to the LAF each year in the name of the person.

Being a 501c3 it is not allowed to distribute money "to any private shareholder or individual" (according to the IRS). The LAFE doesn't handle all of the investments for the LAF... only the setting up and handling of endowments.

This is standard procedure for endowments. For example, the University of California Berkley has a separate organization to handle their endowments... the Berkley Management Endowment Company.

The only company lance owns a controlling interest in (as far as I can tell) is Mellow Johnny's bike shop in Austin.

 

[SirLes]

I'd just like to say that this has been the most interesting, informative and least unnecessarily confrontational series of posts I've read about LA.

Thanks for all your hard work. I have to say it's hard work trying to follow it all as well, or maybe that's just me.

 

[thehog]

Can you provide a link about the LAF paying anything for the livestrong brand? .

http://www.livestrong.org/atf/cf/{F...1EFBDC49}/LAF2004-2005combinedauditreport.pdf

Under G Intangibles - page 14. Further evidence within.

 

[thehog]

As for the "LAFE"... I assume you mean the Lance Armstrong Foundation Endowment. That is a 501c3 as well. All the records are also available. It doesn't do what you claim. Rather it allows people who want to make a "named donation" in excess of 25,000 dollars that will continuously generate income to the LAF to do so. Essentially, people who lose loved ones to cancer will give the LAFE a bunch of money, and they'll distribute the investment profits to the LAF each year in the name of the person.
.

Hence why the E is under investigation by the IRS and that the 2009 figures have not been entered due to this dispute.

 

[The Prodigal Son]

Patrick, your posts on this thread have done more in ‘raising awareness’ about this despicable disease than Lances globe trotting of the last 2 years.

Is this guy serious?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

...

Yes.

It didn't take you long to get a new IP address.

 

[MacRoadie]

Is this guy serious?

Well, that didn't take long. Only four hours to change from Prodigy to Prodigal Son. I'm sure no one will notice though.

Clever disguise for sure, I won't tell anyone....

 

[Hugh Januss]

Is this guy serious?

Are you? Arbiter/BPC/Prodigy

 

[MacRoadie]

Good thing I'm not weilding the Ban Hammer...it would be "one and done"..

 

[The Prodigal Son]

Yes.

You think a post on a forum is better than raising millions for cancer causes around the world, and working with governments, and inspiring individuals? You don't have to like the guy but lets keep a sense of sanity.

 

[The Prodigal Son]

Are you? Arbiter/BPC/Prodigy

No.

_______

 

[MacRoadie]

No.

_______

Who, me?

 

[BroDeal]

El Gordo, Cat 3 charity rider, returns.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

.......

Yes - I feel someones honesty in the midst of their own private battle for no reward is far more inspiring than collecting millions in personal appearance fee's.

 

[franciep10]

Susan or Alpe can you please get rid of this guy before we go down this road again.

 

[The Prodigal Son]

Yes - I feel someones honesty in the midst of their own private battle for no reward is far more inspiring than collecting millions in personal appearance fee's.

But that's not what you said. You said this post on a forum has done more good for cancer than Armstrong's activities over the last two years. That's a quite extraordinary statement.

And he did far more than take appearance fees.

 

[Anonymous]

* awesometown
* BanProCycling
* British Pro Cycling
* Carboncrank
* Cash05458
* fpcyclingn
* ilillillli
* Max Power
* Prodigy
* Rex Hunter
* Rise Of The Dead
* Roadhouse
* Slayer
* Sprocket
* Sprocket01
* sprocket02
* SPROCKET999
* Stealth
* The Prodigal Son

That is my ignore list. How many of them are this mentally ill a$$wipe? I lost count of who he was, but I am guessing that 90% are him.

 

[The Prodigal Son]

Susan or Alpe can you please get rid of this guy before we go down this road again.

I don't want him banned. I just thought it was an amazing thing to say.

There are lots of things you can criticise Armstrong for if you want to, but lets keep some some sense of sanity in the process.