The Olympics and doping

[The Hitch]

Your known to be Irish?

Sorry, i didn't realize you were a public figure or something. Tell us what you are famous for. Can I have your autograph?
looking forward to the macho put down coming here

Here all along I just thought you were a poster who claimed to be Irish, rather than that everyone came into the forum knowing martinvickers is Irish.

But its redundant anyway because I really don't care about dirt of birth.

Anyway to go to the discussion I never offered any of my arguments as a fact. I was responding to a post where you said you "couldn't think of any" other reasons for why pre Socchi olympics had more positive doping tests than pre London olympics

I offered two possible explanations, to "help" you since you couldn't think of any. They were mutually exclusive at that. You are right, they probably were flawed, the second one anyway, the first one, it is certainly true that top drug cheats have consistently gotten away with drugs tests thereby making any "no positives = clean" logic as you offered, totally flawed.

I can offer a better one now and it goes like this - a sample of 2 is way too small. I find it curious that you are so eagerly jumping onto a conclusion the way you did on the fact that 1 olympics had less pre positives than another.

Like with the 2012 Tour where you jumped onto a conclusion without checking how other editions fit into it, I think you are making the mistake of focusing on a very very narrow period of time and trying to extrapolate conclusions from that.

You are talking about 1 games vs another, were so many outside variables can totally skew everything. If you can find some sort of pattern that countries with less pre olympic dope tests have stronger anti doping programmes, I guess you could make conclusions from this, but on its own it means nothing.

And as I said, your conclusion that having more money in non olympic sports brings about cleanliness in olympics is so easily refutable I can't believe someone who has been in the clinic for more than a week would make it. No not every single athlete neccesarily that represented the US was doping, but in the decades since those involved have aknowledged there was mass doping at US olympic teams. Which, considering the US is a country where more money exists in non olympic sports, (particularly before NBA was in the olympics) throws your theory out of the window.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

I previously noted that Spain had a dramatic improvement in performance at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics over previous Olympics. Canada had their best Olympics, by far (up to that point in time) at their home Vacouver Olympics in 2010. Britain more than doubled their medal haul between Athens in 2004, and London 2012. Russia more than doubled their medal haul from the last winter Olympics in Vancouver, compared to what they got here in Sochi.

I know that there may be other reasons, besides doping (and I am sure many of you will list those other reasons for me ), but how much of the performance increase by the home country do you suspect is due to doping ?

---------------
Two of the sports where doping would help the most - biathlon and cross country-skiing, are sports where the russians did worse than what I would call "normal". They did have one race that they dominated, the 50km for men. But apart from that, their performance was poor. Another sport where the russians did badly, and should have done well with a doping advantage, is speed skating.
Two individual golds, and one team gold was one by mr.Ahn, formerly olympic gold winner from South Korea, turned Russian for Sochi.
The Russian Ice Hockey team did not do well.

Vancouver was an all-time low for the Russians performance in the olympics.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Ahahahahahahahahah, you are Canadian, eh? Let's look back and see how many Canadians have been caught (even in a country with virtually no OOC testing for any sport), hint it's not really OOC testing if your National ADA makes an appointment to drop by Mooseballitoba to test you friday after next, if that's good for you.

As always Hugh you are off topic. Have you never heard the term "relevant comment" The issue was whether or not athletes from the home country in 2010, 2012 and 2014 were doping because they were the top medal winners for those particular Olympics. But it appear you have some kind of cognitive impairment

Your comment doesn't even touch that issue. All you can do is mock my Canadianism. Sure some Canadians have been caught but not to the degree of the malfeasance of American athletes except Ben Johnson. And even then the Canadian government held a commission to look into Ben,s case and doping generally. We are the ONLY country in the world except now Australia to do that. You Americans have never had the guts to do that. You have Lance, Flo Jo and Marian Jones and on and on and on to be proud of.

You are so ignorant of doping authorities. In Canada we have the CCES - The Canadian Centre for Ethics in Sport (the equivalent of your USADA) Furthermore it was a Canadian - Dick Pound who was among others the main push to create WADA. By the way WADA chose Canada as their head office in Montreal.

The most recent world class athlete from Moosaballobita is Olympic Gold medalist Jonathan Toews of our mens national hockey team that demolished the USA team last week. Friday is good for me.

 

[Neworld]

The most recent world class athlete from Moosaballobita is Olympic Gold medalist Jonathan Toews of our mens national hockey team that demolished the USA team last week. Friday is good for me.

Great game eh?

Moosaballobita...oh yah love 'em too. Toews, Cindy Klassen, Clara Hughes, Susan Auch, Tanya Dubnikoff... to name a few Olympians.

Hey Robbie, have you been able to get Alex Merckx out of BC cycling yet?

NW

 

[D-Queued]

Great game eh?

Moosaballobita...oh yah love 'em too. Toews, Cindy Klassen, Clara Hughes, Susan Auch, Tanya Dubnikoff... to name a few Olympians.

Hey Robbie, have you been able to get Alex Merckx out of BC cycling yet?

NW

No Alex Merckx's here.

Dave.

 

[Hugh Januss]

No Alex Merckx's here.

Dave.

Is that Axel's cousin or auto-correct?
This whole notion that some countries are full of dopers while other countries are pure as snow is the biggest pile of BS, and it is always offered up by a resident of one of the "clean" countries. A Canadian gets busted and he is that "one bad apple" a Spaniard is "just the tip of the iceberg", etc. Doping is everywhere in any sport where it provides a performance enhancement (and probably some where it doesn't). We have seen over and over that "never tested positive" does not equate to never doped and yet to some it seems like some sort of Gold Standard. Carry on.

 

[Andynonomous]

Is that Axel's cousin or auto-correct?
This whole notion that some countries are full of dopers while other countries are pure as snow is the biggest pile of BS, and it is always offered up by a resident of one of the "clean" countries. A Canadian gets busted and he is that "one bad apple" a Spaniard is "just the tip of the iceberg", etc. Doping is everywhere in any sport where it provides a performance enhancement (and probably some where it doesn't). We have seen over and over that "never tested positive" does not equate to never doped and yet to some it seems like some sort of Gold Standard. Carry on.

Ok, you start with a straw man argument that people here are saying that some countries are perfectly clean, while others are very dirty. That is a deliberate distortion on your part.

Although every country has some level of doping, there certainly a wide ranging level of doping in different countries. To suggest (as you have) that Spain is the same as other countries is deliberately distorting their record.

Most countries do not have high level political interference to protect dopers that Spain does. Most countries do not have courts that protect their dopers like Spain does. Most countries do not have the same number of active doping doctors, or free access to dope that Spain does.

The "they all do it" is a tired old argument that Armstrong supporters used. I had hoped the discussion in the clinic would have moved beyond this simplistic propaganda.

Countries can handle doping in three main ways,

1) Vigorously root it out.
2) Pretend it doesn't exist.
3) Actively cover it up.


I think that most people would say that Spain and Canada score differently here.

 

[D-Queued]

Ok, you start with a straw man argument that people here are saying that some countries are perfectly clean, while others are very dirty. That is a deliberate distortion on your part.

Although every country has some level of doping, there certainly a wide ranging level of doping in different countries. To suggest (as you have) that Spain is the same as other countries is deliberately distorting their record.

Most countries do not have high level political interference to protect dopers that Spain does. Most countries do not have courts that protect their dopers like Spain does. Most countries do not have the same number of active doping doctors, or free access to dope that Spain does.

The "they all do it" is a tired old argument that Armstrong supporters used. I had hoped the discussion in the clinic would have moved beyond this simplistic propaganda.

Countries can handle doping in three main ways,

1) Vigorously root it out.
2) Pretend it doesn't exist.
3) Actively cover it up.


I think that most people would say that Spain and Canada score differently here.

you calling us a bunch of pretenders?

Dave.

 

[Andynonomous]

you calling us a bunch of pretenders?

Dave.

Sorry, but I don't know who you are referring to as "us".

Canadians ? Clinicians ?

 

[Granville57]

Sorry, but I don't know who you are referring to as "us".

Canadians ? Clinicians ?

Canadian Clinicians. The worst of the bunch.

 

[Andynonomous]

Canadian Clinicians. The worst of the bunch.

OK. Got it, I think.


Anyway I believe that the vast majority of nationalistic fans will "pretend doping doesn't exist", until they are confronted with irrefutable proof. The nations authorities do not want to upset the red-necked masses, so they pander to their denial. Including Canada (where I am from).

Some nations are worse, however. There clearly are some nations where the national authorities are complicit in the doping. To equate the two types of nations with "they all do it" is a cynical ploy to protect the worst offenders.

 

[babastooey]

Is there any chance Finland's Olympic Committee will appeal to CAS to get Sweden's ice hockey silver medal stripped? No love lost between those countries.

Will the IOC have the guts to tell the NHL and its players to stay out of the Olympics until the NHL gets its act together? If the NHL players like playing in the Olympics so much, maybe they can then finally agree to implement real drug testing in their league.

If these things do not happen it will be a disservice to the movement to keep doping out of the Olympics and out of sport altogether. You could even make the argument that if no one acts in this way, they may as well be complicit in the doping that takes place.

 

[The Hitch]

If these things do not happen it will be a disservice to the movement to keep doping out of the Olympics and out of sport altogether.

To be honest, the movement to keep doping out of the Olympics is an absolute joke. This is actually by their standards not even that big.

I'm not trying to play down the offense, but in the last few years it has emerged that the 2 dominant countries in its blue ribbon sport - Athletics, are doped to the core, with government complicity, and some of those athletes been given essential immunity from out of competition testing. Going back a few decades athletes that won olympic gold medals have been rocked by scandal many times and actually very rarely has it been thanks to olympic testing.

 

[Neworld]

Will the IOC have the guts to tell the NHL and its players to stay out of the Olympics until the NHL gets its act together? If the NHL players like playing in the Olympics so much, maybe they can then finally agree to implement real drug testing in their league..

Doping is rampant in the NHL...worse in the NFL, NBA, NBL and Track.

I agree though, keep the Pros out of the Olympics...and for hockey limit it to say Kids under 21. Canada will still win, even tho we train all the other nation's athletes in our leagues, and lose our coaches and players to the US funded universities.

The Olympics are a financial beast, quite unrelated to national purity. No wonder countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland have recently opted out of the 2022 olympics, and Norway's national 'vote' to bid on the them was 50:50.

 

[mikeoneill]

not forgetting the debacle in 2012 when the IOC had to be reminded by the media to do their job and retest some of the thousands of samples from athens

 

[DirtyWorks]

Will the IOC have the guts to tell the NHL and its players to stay out of the Olympics until the NHL gets its act together?

You are missing the point. The point IS to have professional players. They just have to be sure to never test positive and they are given enough time to clean up prior to Olympics testing. It's cooperative in every way.

The point of the current anti-doping system is to control anti-doping controversy and probably not kill athletes with doping products. Until NADO's are given the authority to open cases, it's minor athletes getting positives at the peak of the Olympics cycle, and every other positive lost in the four-year lull.

 

[blackcat]

not forgetting the debacle in 2012 when the IOC had to be reminded by the media to do their job and retest some of the thousands of samples from athens

no, their job is not to retest the samples.

their job is to maintain the facade.

see: Don Catlin quote.

 

[Armchaircyclist]

Doping is rampant in the NHL...worse in the NFL, NBA, NBL and Track.

I agree though, keep the Pros out of the Olympics...and for hockey limit it to say Kids under 21. Canada will still win, even tho we train all the other nation's athletes in our leagues, and lose our coaches and players to the US funded universities.

The Olympics are a financial beast, quite unrelated to national purity. No wonder countries like Sweden, Germany and Switzerland have recently opted out of the 2022 olympics, and Norway's national 'vote' to bid on the them was 50:50.

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The interesting part of the Norwegian vote is that it was the city of Oslo that held a vote, not the entire country. So the city that gets all the advantages of huge public spending on the olympics, even does not want it.

 

[Neworld]

------
The interesting part of the Norwegian vote is that it was the city of Oslo that held a vote, not the entire country. So the city that gets all the advantages of huge public spending on the olympics, even does not want it.

Those Norse, they appear to have the optimal blend of social consciousness, finance, education and health and athletics. They speculate that they could pull off the 2022 Winter O for around 6 billion; not 51 bil like Putin flipped for. Yes, the already have most of the facilities but their Oslo citizen's, as you said, are still are having trouble with it. Very realistic people.

Not to mention they are very rich (oil and fiscal restraint) and plans for the future...

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/1278353/Svalbard-Global-Seed-Vault

 

[Libertine Seguros]

They were even going to send all the Alpine skiing to Kvitfjell like in the Lillehammer Olympics because they only need a minor upgrade. They were, however, talking about a brand new (and almost totally superfluous) biathlon facility to lessen the burden on Holmenkollen, whereas as things stand Holmenkollen can host every Nordic discipline with next to no trouble.

The München bid similarly would have been very simple, with Alpine and ski jumping at Garmisch-Partenkirchen and biathlon at Ruhpolding, XC using the Ruhpolding facilities too and the sliding sports at Königssee, but the people were against it.

Almaty is probably in a good place for the bid, since it built a whole bunch of state of the art facilities for the Asian Winter Games in 2011, and would just need to update these a bit come 2020-1 to be ready. The Soldatskoye Ak-Bulak Nordic facilities are state of the art, if a little visually unimpressive as we saw at the Nordic Combined World Cup - but add in the larger number of fans who are likely to turn up for biathlon or XC where there actually is a Kazakh presence, and that effect may be minimised. Medeu is a good facility (outdoor speed-skating could be a lot of fun too) and Shymbulak is definitely good enough to host the alpine.

I'm actually kind of sad that the Santiago bid didn't come together. Nordic skiing in Portillo would have been amazing. We talk about the altitude as a factor at Krasnaya Polyana (13-1400m) and Antholz-Anterselva (1600m)... Portillo de los Andes is at 2900m.

Edit: apparently Dresden is interested in 2026. Would be cool but I can't see it happening. Presumably biathlon at Altenberg, and Oberwiesenthal for most of the other snow sports?

 

[Neworld]

They were even going to send all the Alpine skiing to Kvitfjell like in the Lillehammer Olympics because they only need a minor upgrade. They were, however, talking about a brand new (and almost totally superfluous) biathlon facility to lessen the burden on Holmenkollen, whereas as things stand Holmenkollen can host every Nordic discipline with next to no trouble.

The München bid similarly would have been very simple, with Alpine and ski jumping at Garmisch-Partenkirchen and biathlon at Ruhpolding, XC using the Ruhpolding facilities too and the sliding sports at Königssee, but the people were against it.

Almaty is probably in a good place for the bid, since it built a whole bunch of state of the art facilities for the Asian Winter Games in 2011, and would just need to update these a bit come 2020-1 to be ready. The Soldatskoye Ak-Bulak Nordic facilities are state of the art, if a little visually unimpressive as we saw at the Nordic Combined World Cup - but add in the larger number of fans who are likely to turn up for biathlon or XC where there actually is a Kazakh presence, and that effect may be minimised. Medeu is a good facility (outdoor speed-skating could be a lot of fun too) and Shymbulak is definitely good enough to host the alpine.

I'm actually kind of sad that the Santiago bid didn't come together. Nordic skiing in Portillo would have been amazing. We talk about the altitude as a factor at Krasnaya Polyana (13-1400m) and Antholz-Anterselva (1600m)... Portillo de los Andes is at 2900m.

Edit: apparently Dresden is interested in 2026. Would be cool but I can't see it happening. Presumably biathlon at Altenberg, and Oberwiesenthal for most of the other snow sports?

Wow, thank you for all that info. You have peaked my curiousity...as I am not familiar with some of those sites. Thank you again, keep it coming.

Any guesses where you think they will end up?

Outdoor speed skating? I totally agree. Having raced inside and out there is a massive technical difference and would add to a return to the nostalgic side of sports. The NHL is trying to do that recently with outdoor winter classic hockey games and the fans love it.

Cheers

 

[Andynonomous]

Russians issue non-denial denial for xenon.

The premise of this thread was that the "home team" is more motivated to cheat, including doping. I know xenon use by the Russians has been discussed in other threads, but this non-admission, admission by the Russians seems to support my contention that doping is one way that the home team uses to protect their "dignity".

 

[BullsFan22]

Russians issue non-denial denial for xenon.

The premise of this thread was that the "home team" is more motivated to cheat, including doping. I know xenon use by the Russians has been discussed in other threads, but this non-admission, admission by the Russians seems to support my contention that doping is one way that the home team uses to protect their "dignity".

Xenon is not on WADA's prohibited list. I am more interested in seeing what's gonna come out of SVT's report on doping from recent years, and the implications that's gonna have on the stars of this sport.