Teams & Riders The Pogačar - Van der Poel rivalry

[Berniece]

I didn't include any non one-day race, are you ok? Pogacar is the best as far as one-day race results are concerned. That's all I'm saying.

I mean it as non monuments or WC

 

[AmRacer]

I mean it as non monuments or WC

9-8
1-1

 

[hayneplane]

9-8
1-1

And in this timeframe Pog missed out twice in a highly favourable monument in LBL or he could easily have 11 now.

If MVDP had those same circumstances forcing him to miss a highly favourable monument such as PR in 2022 and 2023 then it would be 11-8 and only just a contest.

Even just looking at this year so far (which is skewed anyway as one rider has finished all their big targets and the other has some left) then they are 2-2 in monuments and 2-1 to Pogacar for other World Tour one day wins. Those numbers are also only going to go further in favour of Pogacar as the season concludes.

MVDP is a fabulous one day racer and has a strong case for being the best cobbled classics rider of all time but across the whole spectrum of single day classics he doesn’t reach the bar of Pogacar.

 

[Berniece]

And in this timeframe Pog missed out twice in a highly favourable monument in LBL or he could easily have 11 now.

Or you could say he was lucky his biggest opponent wasn't at his best and he could've had 7. That can go both ways.

 

[AmRacer]

Or you could say he was lucky his biggest opponent wasn't at his best and he could've had 7. That can go both ways.

@Froome would've had 8 TdF's

 

[hayneplane]

Or you could say he was lucky his biggest opponent wasn't at his best and he could've had 7. That can go both ways.

They already have gone both ways.

If you wanted to go further down that road then there is at least as much evidence to support that Pogacar skipping RVV in 2024 to focus on Giro-Tour double gifted MDVP a win and that PR 2023 puncture for WVA when he was looking super strong and on the attack on the final 5 star sector was at least a 50/50 chance for Wout to win that.

Other than that if you are going to decide who is the best one day racer then at minimum you need to look at their records in all WT one day races or higher classes and do so over the full calendar year.

 

[Unterlenkerfahrend]

I think the monument comparison is very flawed.
Pogacar gobbles up a lot of Lombardias, a race that should automatically disqualify because it is held in October where 80% of the field is already on holiday mode eating cookies and drinking beer the week beforehand. The sole reason why he keeps winning it is because he lives like a boring monk and would probably also in form when you wake him up in mid December. Hard to give him credit for that.
The only time it was held in August in 2020 it had immidiately a very respectable winner in Fuglsang.

LBL is tricky. On one hand it has some incredible respectable winners such as Frank Vandenbroucke, Vino, Andy Schleck or Fuglsang. On the other hand, any race that can be won 4 freaking times by Valverde should immidiately be discarded as a relevant race. So tough call.

That basically leaves MSR, Roubaix and Flanders. MSR would be a great comparison but MVDP has disqualified the race from being a measuring stick since he decided to babysit for Philipsen, a disgrace that leaves me no choice but to only look at PR and Flanders. Where it currently is at 2-2. Tough one.

 

[James M]

He's better because he beat Pogacar in MSR and PR, while only losing RVV because he was sick. Those are 3 monuments our of 5 he would've beaten Pogacar in

What am I reading. I need to mute—what’s the point at this stage.

Pogacar is the best classic rider by a good margin. MvdP isn’t close to him in his terrain, while Pog is close to MvdP in his—so close that he even beats him at times. MvdP, on his own, is the best cobble classics rider and an all-time great. That’s it. But in no metric besides cobble classics does he measure up against Pogacar throughout.

 

[Berniece]

What am I reading. I need to mute—what’s the point at this stage.

There's a topic for that, it's the Pogacar thread.

 

[hayneplane]

I would like to see them head to head in the Gravel Worlds if a suitable calendar slot could be fitted.

 

[Blanco]

It is 10-9 in biggest one-day races for Pogacar.
8-6 in other WT races also for Pogacar.
26-22 for Van Der Poel in all one-day races
Van Der Poel has one podium more (7-6) in big ones.

Pogacar has the edge, but he's hardly on another level, or much better. Contest is tight for now, and for years it was that way:
At the end of 2020. it was 1-0 for VdP
2021: 2-1 Pogacar
2022: 3-2 Pogacar
2023: 5-5
2024: 8-7 Pogacar
2025: 10-9 Pogacar

 

[Blanco]

Good point, Sagan made a habit of losing to Kwia the domestique and old man Gilbert in the biggest races.

Yet he won so many races, Pedersen could only dream of...
Get serious, find some real match for Pedersen, like Terpstra, Kristoff or Degenkolb. Don't compare him with legends, you're not doing him a favor.

 

[Peyroteo94]

It is 10-9 in biggest one-day races for Pogacar.
8-6 in other WT races also for Pogacar.
26-22 for Van Der Poel in all one-day races
Van Der Poel has one podium more (7-6) in big ones.

Pogacar has the edge, but he's hardly on another level, or much better. Contest is tight for now, and for years it was that way:
At the end of 2020. it was 1-0 for VdP
2021: 2-1 Pogacar
2022: 3-2 Pogacar
2023: 5-5
2024: 8-7 Pogacar
2025: 10-9 Pogacar

MVP doesn't target GdL because he knows he can't win. Pogacar gives a fight in cobbled classics. This is the difference between them. Sorry, but they are not on the same level and Pogacar when he turns 30 years old, will probably have more than 15 monuments.

 

[Blanco]

MVP doesn't target GdL because he knows he can't win. Pogacar gives a fight in cobbled classics. This is the difference between them. Sorry, but they are not on the same level and Pogacar when he turns 30 years old, will probably have more than 15 monuments.

I'm discussing what they've achieved until now, not about probabilities...

 

[Peyroteo94]

I'm discussing what they've achieved until now, not about probabilities...

But Pogacar reached a higher palmares with less years. This is also important to mention.

 

[Blanco]

But Pogacar reached a higher palmares with less years. This is also important to mention.

And also important to mention that they started on the road pretty much the same year...

 

[Peyroteo94]

And also important to mention that they started on the road pretty much the same year...

Very different when you are starting your road career at 23 years old and starting at 19 years old. MVP improved a lot but he already was mature. Pogacar was a baby and he is reaching his peak years right now.

 

[CyclistAbi]

Pogi will likely need to win something like a combo of PR and WC RR plus obviously some more races of this type, for equalling or surpassing peak season from Mathieu in terms of one day racing. If we compensate with stage racing then for sure Mathieu is not in the same league anymore. But that si not what this specific rivalry is all about is it.

 

[Gratemans]

You all know this is pretty much the equivalent of "my dad can beat up your dad!" right?

 

[Savant12]

Both riders bring out the best of each other. If one of them is missing from a big race, the racing aspect among the rest is lacking because Pog or VDP will just dominate.

 

[Berniece]

Very different when you are starting your road career at 23 years old and starting at 19 years old. MVP improved a lot but he already was mature. Pogacar was a baby and he is reaching his peak years right now.

Pogacar always rode on the road, MVDP mostly rode CX.

 

[AmRacer]

Pogacar always rode on the road, MVDP mostly rode CX.

Pogi has been a pro his whole life?

 

[KZD]

Barring any serious incident I have no doubt that Pogačar will finish his career with more WC and monument wins than Van der Poel. The only way Van der Poel could have had a chance is if he had invested in road cycling right after winning the Junior WC title in 2013 instead of only taking it seriously again in 2018/2019. He would likely be a double digit monument winner by now and have more than one WC title but could already be on the decline.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Barring any serious incident I have no doubt that Pogačar will finish his career with more WC and monument wins than Van der Poel. The only way Van der Poel could have had a chance is if he invested in road cycling right after winning the Junior WC title in 2013 instead of only taking it seriously again in 2018/2019. He would likely be a double digit monument winner by now and have more than one WC title but could already be on the decline.

If he wins GdL, he will have 10 monuments. Some day, MVP will start his decline and Pogacar can start winning 2-4 monuments a season.

 

[AmRacer]

If he wins GdL, he will have 10 monuments. Some day, MVP will start his decline and Pogacar can start winning 2-4 monuments a season.

3 this year with GdL