The Powermeter Thread

[Alex Simmons/RST]

Now there is a PPP! I assume you don't mind me quoting you?

Of course not, although no doubt you recognise it's an extension of the original quote by Chris Mayhew.

"The PowerTap is a tool, not a bolt on motor "

 

[sittingbison]

...All I am asking for is the answer to this question. What is the evidence that supports the above statements?

All you are asking for FrankDay is a lengthy ban. Last warning.

Some people never learn

bison

 

[Berzin]

Your understanding of how the various power meters work is significantly lacking. I suggest you take some time to learn about how they work before continuing to make significant errors on the subject.

As for individual left and right leg measurement, there are various meters available that already do this, although the methodology in how and what they report varies (and as such what you might interpret from knowing the left and right split would vary accordingly).

Whether or not such left-right data provides actionable intelligence is yet to be demonstrated.

I'm open minded on it and over time we will see more good research conducted in this area, but I'd suggest that knowing total output will still be significantly more important than knowing the left-right split.

SRM doesn't do right-left leg splits that can be seen on the graphs provided by their software. Neither does Powertap, and these are two companies that that have dominated market share in this area for far too long. I believe Racermate does, but it's an indoor trainer.

To each his own. I've always said I, like the majority of cycling enthusiasts, are laymen when it comes to this stuff. I just want what I feel would be useful to me regardless of what any experts think. When the technology has advanced to this point and becomes available in a no-BS package at a reasonable price, I'll be the first in line.

 

[CoachFergie]

SRM doesn't do right-left leg splits that can be seen on the graphs provided by their software. Neither does Powertap, and these are two companies that that have dominated market share in this area for far too long. I believe Racermate does, but it's an indoor trainer.

To each his own. I've always said I, like the majority of cycling enthusiasts, are laymen when it comes to this stuff. I just want what I feel would be useful to me regardless of what any experts think. When the technology has advanced to this point and becomes available in a no-BS package at a reasonable price, I'll be the first in line.

SRM did on the PC4 but I think from then on they felt it had little utility compared to the many other uses of watts alone for testing, setting training ranges, event assessment, race analysis, tracking fitness, fatigue and form over the season, testing aerodynamics, testing equipment, testing technique and so on. Racing and Training with a Power Meter covers a lot of this and Andy Coggan put out 4 excellent videos on a slew of new metrics that I am already finding to be a real game changer as a coach.

Powertap is a hub based power meter so L-R is not possible. But you do get all of the above.

I have numerous recreational riders employ my services as a coach after they have brought a power meter. And most pick it up rather quickly. None of them seem concerned about the cost of the equipment or my exorbitant fees.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

SRM doesn't do right-left leg splits that can be seen on the graphs provided by their software. Neither does Powertap, and these are two companies that that have dominated market share in this area for far too long. I believe Racermate does, but it's an indoor trainer.

Who said anything about this only being SRM/Powertap thing? SRM does have such data (and was the first commercial meter to make it possible at least 10 years ago, indeed it was around at the time of the PCIV for those that know the vintage of SRM Powercontrol I'm referring to) but it requires the use of their torque analysis system which is additional hardware/software and is confined to an ergometer setting. Powertap to my knowledge have never made any such claim wrt provision of left/right data.

You do realise there are over 20 brands of power meter, and some of those already do provide left and right side data? e.g.: Quarq, Power2Max, Garmin Vector, MEP, Axis Cranks, all provide left-right data, as do some newer offering from Factor, InfoCrank, Look-Polar and Rotor.

Then there are ergometers that also provide such data, e.g. Wattbike.

To each his own. I've always said I, like the majority of cycling enthusiasts, are laymen when it comes to this stuff. I just want what I feel would be useful to me regardless of what any experts think. When the technology has advanced to this point and becomes available in a no-BS package at a reasonable price, I'll be the first in line.

I'm simply pointing out that the usefulness of left-right data is yet to be properly established, not that it is not nor ever will be of use. If you want it and consider it would be a valuable addition to the data at your disposal, then it is available now and at the price of many current models and you have quite a choice of options.

My personal experience of a severe leg injury was knowing left-right data mattered little, what really mattered was measuring my total power output.

 

[RChung]

Was David Bowden one of the participants and that event? If I remember correctly there was a Kiwi who attended.

Nick Flyger, though I think he's now at AIS.

 

[CoachFergie]

Not sure if Nick Flyger in the photo, never met him, but he is based at the AIS these days. My supervisor spends 1 week in 5 with him over there. He is the Sprint Physiologist for Cycling Australia.

 

[CoachFergie]

Look at this, even the Caveman is back using a power meter...

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Tri_Bike_by_brand/Specialized/The_Shiv_of_Conrad_Stoltz_3459.html

 

[CoachFergie]

Anyone have any info???

Xpedo pedal based power meter, no pods, ANT+ and rechargeable...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

 

[sciguy]

Anyone have any info???

Xpedo pedal based power meter, no pods, ANT+ and rechargeable...

http://forum.slowtwitch.com/gforum....view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

Look down this page a ways.
http://www.pezcyclingnews.com/page/latest-news/?id=110540#.Uv1w3vtFAR3

The $1000 price sounds promising too. Of course they can't wash your underwear like Powercranks can


Hugh

 

[sciguy]

Shimano's power meter patent looks pretty darn interesting. I suppose this would be a 3rd generation power meter by the sounds.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/02/17...cranksets-measures-effort-in-multiple-planes/

Hugh

 

[FrankDay]

Shimano's power meter patent looks pretty darn interesting. I suppose this would be a 3rd generation power meter by the sounds.

http://www.bikerumor.com/2014/02/17...cranksets-measures-effort-in-multiple-planes/

Hugh

No, it would only be a 2nd gen system. It is only a different way of measuring the strain.

I found this particularly funny

…or maybe it’s just a way of combining more and more data to present a more accurate measurement of your actual power output.

I guess it goes to how little understood what power actually is. Measuring forces in additional planes cannot increase the accuracy of measuring the "actual power output". The usefulness of such data is in better understanding applied forces that do not do work (generate power) such that all they do is increase pedaling inefficiency. That is the value of a second generation system, giving the rider information that can lead to power improvements through technique changes rather than just giving them what the power is. Therefore, the value of any second generation system will lie in the software and information that is transmitted to the rider beyond just power. Of course, none of the current second generation systems (other than Pioneer and the soon to come iCranks) give any of this additional information. Hopefully someday these will all add this additional information to their capability and cyclists can move beyond the current wide-spread belief that pushing harder is all that matters. If anyone truly believes that then they should not spend the extra money for these new systems. The old ones will work just fine for them.

 

[sciguy]

No, it would only be a 2nd gen system. It is only a different way of measuring the strain.
.

So the Icrank also measures out-of-plane force as well as torsional moment force? Better hurry those folks up as it's been soon to be released since mid-2012 IIRC.

Hugh

 

[CoachFergie]

Excellent, more players and the big players getting into the PM market. Hopefully competition will drive the prices down. Or at least the quality higher.

A new area is being able to easily pair a ANT+ power meter to a camera. Shimano is releasing an option and the Garmin VIRB's latest firmware allows for pairing with any ANT+ PM.

http://www.dcrainmaker.com/2014/02/support-action-camera.html

http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...port-camera-enabled-for-live-streaming_315819

 

[FrankDay]

So the Icrank also measures out-of-plane force as well as torsional moment force? Better hurry those folks up as it's been soon to be released since mid-2012 IIRC.

Hugh

The iCrank should have the capability of measuring out of plane force but, right now, the software only gives the rider tangential forces, as those are the only forces that generate power to help the rider to improve power. I suppose all those other, non-planar, forces might be useful but it seems to me that too much information might be confusing so, until it can be shown that getting that additional information can be put to good use it seems to me that the rider would be best served concentrating on what is known to be useful, improving average power exerted around the pedaling circle. Pioneer does a similar thing but in a different way. Pioneer is showing the rider non-tangential (wasted) forces but not quantifying these (nor the tangential) forces, only showing them in graphical fashion. iCranks is quantifying the useful (tangential) forces and ignores the non-tangential forces. Which will be more useful is anyone's guess right now. I would like to see both in one product. The two definite advantages that the iCranks will have over most of the rest is it will incorporate the ability to experiment with crank length (this will also be available to the pedal/shoe based systems) and also include a tool to help change pedaling technique should the user desire to do that.

 

[coapman]

and also include a tool to help change pedaling technique

A tool can't change pedalling technique, only your brain can do that.

 

[berend]

A tool can't change pedalling technique, only your brain can do that.

Of course it can: remove one pedal. Result: technique changes.

 

[CoachFergie]

No more zip ties!

http://pelotonmagazine.com/uncategorized/pioneer-power-power-from-masters-of-hi-fi-audio/

 

[sciguy]

No more zip ties!

http://pelotonmagazine.com/uncategorized/pioneer-power-power-from-masters-of-hi-fi-audio/

The price is a rather pleasant surprise too.

• Priced as complete crank sets. Dura Ace 9000: $1850, Ultegra 6800: $1550, SGX-CA500 Head Unit: $300.

 

[FrankDay]

The price is a rather pleasant surprise too.

It isn't clear to me what is happening here. Two sentences suggest a step backwards to me.

Compared to a Stages meter, it may be heavy and slightly more expensive, but it appears to provide much more data, although there is still some debate about what exactly an athlete does with knowledge about power differential between legs. … Following up on an overly complicated unit with compatibility issues,

Wasn't Pioneer providing pedal force data on its first unit? Is this the "overly complicated" feature they seem to be eliminating in order to, seemingly, just give r/l data? If that is the case this is a big step backwards for them, IMHO, from a usefulness perspective (although it may be a big step forwards for them from a sales perspective if they get their prices down as the usefulness of the pedal force data seems to be lost on almost everyone).

 

[sciguy]

It isn't clear to me what is happening here. Two sentences suggest a step backwards to me.Wasn't Pioneer providing pedal force data on its first unit? Is this the "overly complicated" feature they seem to be eliminating in order to, seemingly, just give r/l data? If that is the case this is a big step backwards for them, IMHO, from a usefulness perspective (although it may be a big step forwards for them from a sales perspective if they get their prices down as the usefulness of the pedal force data seems to be lost on almost everyone).

Frank,

The initial system wasn't compatible with certain bike's rear brake systems. They revamped how the cranks "know" their orientation without needing hardware that interferes with the brakes of the problem bikes.

Here is a link to a nice rundown of the changes.

http://www.slowtwitch.com/Products/Pioneer_Reintroduces_Power_4186.html

The units still provide data for 12 sections of the pedal stroke.

Hugh

 

[kilibo77]

know how to make the settings is an important part of owning a power meter. I think the thread is in accordance with the Power Meter.

 

[Berzin]

Left/Right individual leg readings.

Gee, I thought we didn't need that.

Thank goodness for SRM. I pedal using both legs, but don't mind ignoring one for the other and just multiplying by two.

So much more efficient that way...

 

[sciguy]

Perhaps I'm a bit confused? First your say:

Frank, I'm not a fan of power meters because after all these years they should be more technologically evolved and the prices more reasonable.

and then when a much less expensive ($1850 vs $3145 MSRP for a Dura Ace model) and technologically more evolved unit comes out you're not happy?

Left/Right individual leg readings.

Gee, I thought we didn't need that.

Thank goodness for SRM. I pedal using both legs, but don't mind ignoring one for the other and just multiplying by two.

So much more efficient that way...

So you're not happy that a much less expensive and arguably more technologically advanced unit is on the market?

Hugh

 

[sciguy]

The new Garmin Vector release provides Torque Effectivenes and Pedal Smoothness

Just released in version 2.40

https://forums.garmin.com/showthrea...-Effectiveness-(TE)-and-Pedal-Smoothness-(PS)

Torque Effectiveness = (((P+) + (P-))/(P+)) X 100

Pedal Smoothness = (Pavg/Pmax) X 100

I'm really interested in see the variation in riders, especially say Froome and the not so speedy pros.

Hugh