Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Bombarolo]

Solid performance this Tour de France.

I think he is racing in a very smart way. The only "mistake" was probably trying to close on Vingegaard in stage 14 where he paid the price a bit in the last km.

 

[Red Rick]

Whether he finishes second or not, today confirms that this will be his most impressive GT so far by a margin. Much more consistent and much further ahead of the humans than when he won the Vuelta, despite the route being much less favourable for him. The only problem is that he needs to repeat his Vuelta-to-Tour improvement another two times to have a shot at beating this version of Pogacar...

Wait so the Tour with 2 ITTs and almost no big steep climbs is bad for him?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He could lose the TT to Pog but still find enough time on Vingegaard. Difficult to predict how the Dane will perform. If he's starting to feel his crooked prep, then you can't rule it out. But on the other hand, today he was good enough to hang onto Evenepoel's wheel. Which isn't directly comparable but 2 minutes is still a sizeable chunk of time.

I also wonder whether anybody will do a bikechange in the TT. Both climbing and descending (technical parts) should be better on a regular bike, but at the end there is also a few km flat. I haven't heard anything about teams decisions in that regard.

Solid performance this Tour de France.

I think he is racing in a very smart way. The only "mistake" was probably trying to close on Vingegaard in stage 14 where he paid the price a bit in the last km.

The mistake was to get boxed in so that he couldn't simply follow Vingegaard from the beginning. It could well prove to be the difference between 2nd and 3rd at the end of the week.

 

[Red Rick]

2 minutes is a really big gap on this particar hilly TT. If it were 40km flat then I would give him a shot.

Fully expecting him to lose to Pogacar in that ITT but should be interesting by how much

 

[Devil's Elbow]

Wait so the Tour with 2 ITTs and almost no big steep climbs is bad for him?

The 2022 Vuelta had a grand total of 1 HC climb, and none of the cat. 1s were close to HC standard either. Not saying this is a bad Tour route for him (it isn't), but that Vuelta was probably the easiest GT since Isidro Nozal almost won a Vuelta with a grand total of one top-10 on a mountain stage, to the point where Evenepoel taking 1:51 in the sole TT and 29 seconds in the TTT was comfortably enough to hold off Mas.

 

[Billy The Kid]

Yup, agreed. In terms of pacing and how he's managed that I've been incredibly impressed by him, really; 'mature' is a great way to put it. As Logic has pointed out though, he has really cost himself with some positioning issues, finding himself boxed in or too many wheels back at times and everything counts at this level. He definitely seems to have a lot more upside if he works on his descending issues (he'll never be the 2nd coming of Salvoldelli but he certainly can get better), some of the positioning stuff, a better team, etc.

This Tour has been amazing for him frankly; I very much feel he's had the kind of race which is really going to give him a big bump forward in a lot of ways. Confidence-wise this is pretty huge; I did not expect this out of him and am really delighted to see it.

Yes. He has used a lot more energy on closing gaps in the downhill then Pog,Vinge and everyone else has. In a 3 week Tour that matters hugely for his fatigue. Big potential for improving.

Regarding the team. I dont agree that he need to change teams. When he won the Vuelta in 22 the team did an amazing job, motstly with 6 guys.In the Giro last year, he probably would have won with the same team had it not been for covid knocking almost everyone in the team out.

This year i am impressed of the work and morale the team has showed despite of Pedersen and Vervaeke’s early exits. Dont forget that Remco’s allround and best helper, Cattaneo, got injured this spring. He will likely be back next year, together with new signings. Possible Tour team 2025: Remco,Landa,Cattaneo,Van Wilder, Paret-Peintre,Vervaeke, Lampaert and Eenkhorn/Moscon(if he gets a new contract).

In my opinion this team will be stronger and more dedicated then what Redbull-Hansgrohe can offer atm. The most important thing is that Remco does these small marginal gains until next year(descending,positioning etc) + no big injuries before the Tour.

 

[stekelegel]

He definitely improved on his temperament, in his first GT.s he was contesting intermediate sprints, finishes, just wasting loads of energy for marginal gains. maybe even a bit to calm now, sometimes putting pressure on opponents can lead to mistakes.
Needs a big improvement on his downhill capacities, if not they will put pressure on him in every GT he rides in the future.
The team must get stronger, I expected more from Van Wilder. And can Landa do it again next year?
And finally does he choose to do Tour next year and risk that bar accidents he can’t get better than 3th, or maybe try to win Giro or Vuelta? The gap with Pog and a fully prepared Vinge is huge… if Pog doesn’t do the double, winning the giro is,maybe not a bad option?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

And finally does he choose to do Tour next year and risk that bar accidents he can’t get better than 3th, or maybe try to win Giro or Vuelta? The gap with Pog and a fully prepared Vinge is huge… if Pog doesn’t do the double, winning the giro is,maybe not a bad option?

The gap with a fully prepared Vingegaard...? How do you know how big that gap is? Vingegaard has been pushing the same or better numbers this year than last year. Clearly based on his form, test results, watts etc, Visma actually thought they could win the Tour, so he can't have been that much worse than previous years. Evenepoel also crashed in Itzulia and had to take a huge risk imho in losing that much weight that fast just before the Tour, just to reach this level.

The question isn't whether he could be good enough to beat Vingegaard. For sure he has enough margin to improve (not just in climbing form and a bit of extra weight, but also positioning, descending etc) to come within spitting distance of Vingegaard to give him a decent shot at beating him. The big question is whether either of them will be able to bridge the gap to Pogacar and whether Pogacar will improve further or rather the opposite.

 

[red_flanders]

These debates about the courses really need to more often to take into account how hard a race was raced, not just the number of HC's etc. No one can reasonably argue this wasn't one of, if not THE hardest Tours in recent memory, given how punishing the speeds have been every day, across all terrain. The speed and the course was plenty hard enough to destroy most of the field. Remco has impressed. He has been always in front (until the final attacks), and is far and away stronger than anyone but the two mutants.

When we have a route with 85k + of flattish ITT, we can talk about a course made for Evenepoel. Otherwise this has been a course designed for the strongest riders. He has fared really well to this point.

 

[jmdirt]

He definitely improved on his temperament, in his first GT.s he was contesting intermediate sprints, finishes, just wasting loads of energy for marginal gains. maybe even a bit to calm now, sometimes putting pressure on opponents can lead to mistakes.
Needs a big improvement on his downhill capacities, if not they will put pressure on him in every GT he rides in the future.
The team must get stronger, I expected more from Van Wilder. And can Landa do it again next year?
And finally does he choose to do Tour next year and risk that bar accidents he can’t get better than 3th, or maybe try to win Giro or Vuelta? The gap with Pog and a fully prepared Vinge is huge… if Pog doesn’t do the double, winning the giro is,maybe not a bad option?

Predicting form for 350 days from now is tough, but the assumption would be that RE will be better next year, right?

 

[Valv.Piti]

These debates about the courses really need to more often to take into account how hard a race was raced, not just the number of HC's etc. No one can reasonably argue this wasn't one of, if not THE hardest Tours in recent memory, given how punishing the speeds have been every day, across all terrain. The speed and the course was plenty hard enough to destroy most of the field. Remco has impressed. He has been always in front (until the final attacks), and is far and away stronger than anyone but the two mutants.

When we have a route with 85k + of flattish ITT, we can talk about a course made for Evenepoel. Otherwise this has been a course designed for the strongest riders. He has fared really well to this point.

Yeah. And if ASO have any brains, they will have a heavy TT course come 2025 with what they have seen. These ITTs barely mean anything in the grand scheme of things

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

I also wonder whether anybody will do a bikechange in the TT. Both climbing and descending (technical parts) should be better on a regular bike, but at the end there is also a few km flat. I haven't heard anything about teams decisions in that regard.

When "on top of the pedals" we've witnessed Vingo's predator technical skills.
But now he is challenged, both physically and mentally exhausted, also with pressure of most likely loosing the 2nd spot. 1:58 seems like a confident margin. But he's been very on his limit just following Remco in Vingo's own terrain.
Last year we also witnessed the difference between a bike change vs. a non-bike change on the Combloux stage had. In a way comparable stage Monaco - Nice this year, but the world has changed, Remco, his closest rival has changed and Vingo is not on top. Pogi just needs to cruise it home and make sure he doesn't lose it all through a stupid decision or unnecessary greed...

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

Yeah. And if ASO have any brains, they will have a heavy TT course come 2025 with what they have seen. These ITTs barely mean anything in the grand scheme of things

So a repeat of the 1987 Futuroscope near 90k ITT? (don't remember who won - maybe Charly Mottet? Just remember my compatriot Jesper Skibby took the lower podium spot that day).
I'm quite sure Remco is fully game for this.

 

[red_flanders]

So a repeat of the 1987 Futuroscope near 90k ITT?

That might be an over-correction.

I thought the Armstrong era races with one or two 50k+ ITT's were great. But I'm a bigger guy and I guess I like seeing guys who aren't total skeletors win.

 

[Zoetemelk-fan]

That might be an over-correction.

I thought the Armstrong era races with one or two 50k+ ITT's were great. But I'm a bigger guy and I guess I like seeing guys who aren't total skeletors win.

Regarding the latter we're in the same boat (though still animating the hill sprints in my local bike club)
And the Futoroscope stage wasn't exactly for skeletors, dominated by roulleurs like Thurau, Bernard and quite more 'biff' GC guys as Roche and Mottet

 

[Billy The Kid]

Predicting form for 350 days from now is tough, but the assumption would be that RE will be better next year, right?

I strongly believe so,yes. Aside from the crash in April, that put him 5-6 weeks behind his scheduele. He also went down in the slippery mass crash in Dauphine and catched a cold in June. Far from a perfect build up.He will also have learned a great deal from this Tour.

We can see that he has matured as a rider, he is riding more relaxed in the peloton and positioning in the sprint stages are way better. The gravel stage was a sign of technical improvement.He is only 24years and still has big room to get better in many aspects: Endurance, descending, positioning in the mountains etc

 

[red_flanders]

Regarding the latter we're in the same boat (though still animating the hill sprints in my local bike club)
And the Futoroscope stage wasn't exactly for skeletors, dominated by roulleurs like Thurau, Bernard and quite more 'biff' GC guys as Roche and Mottet

Ah, by skeletors I mean how it's changed since then, with the TT's being so undervalued at this point that they're almost perfunctory. That favors wispy climbers. I relate more to Ullrich.

 

[houtdffan]

Wait so the Tour with 2 ITTs and almost no big steep climbs is bad for him?

These are not real itts. The giro was more of a ty course

 

[Froome]

The gap with a fully prepared Vingegaard...? How do you know how big that gap is? Vingegaard has been pushing the same or better numbers this year than last year. Clearly based on his form, test results, watts etc, Visma actually thought they could win the Tour, so he can't have been that much worse than previous years. Evenepoel also crashed in Itzulia and had to take a huge risk imho in losing that much weight that fast just before the Tour, just to reach this level.

The question isn't whether he could be good enough to beat Vingegaard. For sure he has enough margin to improve (not just in climbing form and a bit of extra weight, but also positioning, descending etc) to come within spitting distance of Vingegaard to give him a decent shot at beating him. The big question is whether either of them will be able to bridge the gap to Pogacar and whether Pogacar will improve further or rather the opposite.

That doesn't mean anything anymore(in terms of being in peak shape or close) considering what is happening in the current peloton, especially in a certain team this year.

Remco would had won the Tour 2023 if he pushed last year, the numbers he is pushing this year. It tells a lot.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Predicting form for 350 days from now is tough, but the assumption would be that RE will be better next year, right?

I strongly believe so,yes.

Wait, are you guys talking about compared to this year, or compared to Vingegaard next year? He should definitely be able to improve significantly next year, with a perfect prep, maybe half a kilo or a kilo lighter, working a bit on positioning and cornering mainly. Whether that would be enough to beat Vingegaard... we also don't know.

That doesn't mean anything anymore(in terms of being in peak shape or close) considering what is happening in the current peloton, especially in a certain team this year.

Remco would had won the Tour 2023 if he pushed last year, the numbers he is pushing this year. It tells a lot.

That was my point. There is no way of knowing how a 100% peak and skinny Evenepoel would compare to a 100% peak Vingegaard, because neither was fully prepared this year and past Vingegaard goes out the window after what happened now.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Milan- San Remco

Liege-Remco-Liege

 

[jmdirt]

Wait, are you guys talking about compared to this year, or compared to Vingegaard next year? He should definitely be able to improve significantly next year, with a perfect prep, maybe half a kilo or a kilo lighter, working a bit on positioning and cornering mainly. Whether that would be enough to beat Vingegaard... we also don't know.


That was my point. There is no way of knowing how a 100% peak and skinny Evenepoel would compare to a 100% peak Vingegaard, because neither was fully prepared this year and past Vingegaard goes out the window after what happened now.

I was replying to a post that seemed to be indicating that JV would be better next year, while not also assuming that RE could also be better.

 

[Oldermanish]

Yup, agreed. In terms of pacing and how he's managed that I've been incredibly impressed by him, really; 'mature' is a great way to put it. As Logic has pointed out though, he has really cost himself with some positioning issues, finding himself boxed in or too many wheels back at times and everything counts at this level. He definitely seems to have a lot more upside if he works on his descending issues (he'll never be the 2nd coming of Salvoldelli but he certainly can get better), some of the positioning stuff, a better team, etc.

This Tour has been amazing for him frankly; I very much feel he's had the kind of race which is really going to give him a big bump forward in a lot of ways. Confidence-wise this is pretty huge; I did not expect this out of him and am really delighted to see it.

The thing about positioning is also linked to metering effort over 3 weeks. If you obsess about being in a clear attack line you will go crazy what with fans, cars and press bikes. It's more important to know imminent threats of attack and be there then. Honestly, he didn't miss an opportunity to sit on Tadej's wheel too many more seconds than he would've fighting to see Pogi's tailpipe. He did very well and in the end it doesn't make a minute of difference, let alone 6+ minutes. He did damn near everything right except some descending and positioning on terrain he's never seen. He'll know what to look for next time and should not repeat what he knows were energy killers. That said; it's all different at the next race and takes time to learn it all.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

When we have a route with 85k + of flattish ITT, we can talk about a course made for Evenepoel.

This would be horrible for Remco, because with 85k+ of flattish ITT then the geniuses in Soudal management will bring him to the tour with 3 kilos extra so he can gain 1 minute more in the ITTs…………….

 

[Didinho]

He’s not gonna change bikes during the TT. All black bike, 130-140gr lighter than the silver one he used lately.