Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Valv.Piti]

Yes, he's only sticking up for poor old Fausto.

 

[Sciatic]

One can just not react/respond and ignore it if the opinion doesn't matter or you find the discussion isn't going anywhere.

I'm not a big fan of the ignore button since it deprives yourself out of meaningful reactions just because you didn't like an opinion of that person. It is a sign of weakness to make your own echo chamber/safe space. If you can't handle others opinions on subjects, one shouldn't be on the internet . (real life should also be a *** in that case). Of course harassing or singling out people to call names etc are a whole other thing and that is up to the higher levels ;D. (Giving riders a nickname isn't a problem I assume. Not everyone can share the same vision or sees things through the same lens as others. I guess as long as people aren't name calling each other...)



That said asside:

Pitty Masnada isn't going well. It read he was a bit sick (again) during Romandia. Apperently he told the team he shouldn't be in the 1st pick based on how he was feeling. (he is still reserve for the Giro).
I hope he gets to his old level later this year, or at least shows sign he can get back to his old level.
And our Masnada fans should keep cheering/believing in him! If he can get to the tour team he might be free to do what he wants. (since i don't think they have anyone for the GC;just stage races).

I don’t use the ignore button but suggested it to someone who seems to feel the masnada posts ruin his/her experience. I agree about not creating echo chambers but if someone finds something intolerable it’s certainly an option.

 

[Sciatic]

That must be a case of selective memory. You can't sit here with a straight face and act surprised that people will take this opportunity to act the way they do based on what the guy is writing day in day out about Masnada. Truly ridicolous stuf.

But what’s so difficult about some ridiculousness?
Life is made up of so much of it —in places that matter more than here—at workplaces, in traffic, in government. It’s hard for me to see it as anything but benign, especially because it’s direct and heartfelt. Not like,for instance, doping deniers who surreptitiously undermine thread discussions.

 

[Valv.Piti]

But what’s so difficult about some ridiculousness?
Life is made up of so much of it —in places that matter more than here—at workplaces, in traffic, in government. It’s hard for me to see it as anything but benign, especially because it’s direct and heartfelt. Not like,for instance, doping deniers who surreptitiously undermine thread discussions.

I don't have a problem with it, but its what you can expect posting stuff like that on a forum like this. Thats only natural, you give and you take something.

 

[Riek s]

I don’t use the ignore button but suggested it to someone who seems to feel the masnada posts ruin his/her experience. I agree about not creating echo chambers but if someone finds something intolerable it’s certainly an option.

yeah, the you in my sentence wasn't referring to 'you' but to the person using the ignore button .

 

[Sciatic]

I don't have a problem with it, but its what you can expect posting stuff like that on a forum like this. Thats only natural, you give and you take something.

I see what you mean, I.e. the response by some isn’t surprising.

 

[Didinho]

He trained 182km on his TT bike today. Done in 4 hours.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sure, jealousy plays a role but it‘s also apparent arrogance by people who feel like they possess the ultimate truth because they believed in Evenepoel in situations where many doubted him and are now not able to see why some may not like him and thus attribute the negativity to personal failure of those „haters“.

It's not arrogance. It's flipping the finger at people who felt the need to ridicule someone who was struggling, kicking him when down and mistaking adversity for incompetence.

And lol at people feeling bad for Ilmaestro. He's the first in line to ridicule other riders and their fans, he's the first to claim worldclass riders are mediocre athletes and continuously does so. Yet on the other hand he is also the one to pretend Masnada is the second coming of Christ. The problem is that some posters have given him the impression that he is actually funny. It might be funny once or twice, but after a couple of years, it's annoying AF. Especially since he actually thinks he has arguments to back up his drivel. Then act surprised when other posters mock you when Masnada gets overtaken by a toddler on a tricycle. You can't have it both ways.

But in fairness, it is forum admin/moderation that has failed. While some get banned for blowing their nose, moderators on the forum have not only condoned his behaviour, but actually encouraged it.

 

[peterfin]

Sure, jealousy plays a role but it‘s also apparent arrogance by people who feel like they possess the ultimate truth because they believed in Evenepoel in situations where many doubted him and are now not able to see why some may not like him and thus attribute the negativity to personal failure of those „haters“.

Believing in someone when many are in doubt is fine and also a fair assessment when it proves to be right. Arrogance is a different matter and I have to say that this was not the tone of the fans here prior to Remco's big results. There was a lot of hope and belief and also defensiveness against those who tried to crush and ridicule that belief with or without arguments.

I do think you are to the point when it comes to identifying the primary reason why this forum in particular still has people with negativity towards Remco. While Initially he was ridiculed as Bambi or the new Spilak mainly to annoy his fans, today it's basically the opposite. These people are now annoyed by outspoken fans and use negativity towards Remco as a matter of defense.

 

[Panda Claws]

I swear I read more complaints about Fans/Haters of Y than I see actual fans/haters of Y being annoying.

 

[LesDiablesRouges]

Believing in someone when many are in doubt is fine and also a fair assessment when it proves to be right. Arrogance is a different matter and I have to say that this was not the tone of the fans here prior to Remco's big results. There was a lot of hope and belief and also defensiveness against those who tried to crush and ridicule that belief with or without arguments.

I do think you are to the point when it comes to identifying the primary reason why this forum in particular still has people with negativity towards Remco. While Initially he was ridiculed as Bambi or the new Spilak mainly to annoy his fans, today it's basically the opposite. These people are now annoyed by outspoken fans and use negativity towards Remco as a matter of defense

Or perhaps people we able to see where Remco was headed. I got the same insanity when I was yelling at Chelsea fans (of which I am one) and Mourinho fans that letting go of Kevin De Bruyne wopuld be the biggest mistake in the history of football and they'd rue it for a long long time.

Now to be fair to Chelsea they did win PL titles and even a CL trophy after KDB left, but KDB has gone on to be one of the best CMs in the world for a decade.

Us Belgians do not have a lot to crow about, but we are acutely aware of the talents and abilities of Belgian cyclists and football players.

 

[how yes no?]

I swear I read more complaints about Fans/Haters of Y than I see actual fans/haters of Y being annoying.

If you don't find the complaints annoying, then there is no problem, we can maybe disagree about the observation, but that's another debate.
Now, if you do find them annoying, it's very likely the complaints are made by fans/haters of Y and thus you find them annoying, from that would follow that in all cases where the complains are actually made by the fans/haters of Y, your statement would logically contradict itself.

Us Belgians do not have a lot to crow about, but we are acutely aware of the talents and abilities of Belgian cyclists and football players.

No one has a crystal ball and even if one would have it, its prognosis would not be a legitimate argument in the debate, as any debate about the future would be made pointless by it.
If on the other hand we believe that we all have crystal balls, but they are showing different things, they are made pointless in themselves, let alone in terms of debate.
I'm not disputing Belgians knowing their talents, but talents are just potential until actualized.
Is Remco a great talent? Sure.
Did he prove his great talent in TT? Of course.
Did he prove he can dominate any TT anytime? Not yet.
Did he prove his great talent in some classics? Most definitely.
Did he prove he can compete in all of them and is the best current classics rider? Not yet.
Did he prove he can continually dominate 1 week stage races? Not yet.
Did he prove he can compete for the win in second level GT? Yes.
Did he prove he can win a GT against top level competition? Not yet, maybe Giro can give us some (not all) data on this.

Sure one can always make "blind" predictions and feel good (or brag about it) when the predictions turn out to be correct. But one also has to acknowledge when the predictions turn out to be false (and take the bragging of others).
Needless to say, bragging before results are known is childish and in terms of debate only serves to provoke the opponent on a non rational basis. (There were certainly examples of that from some members of this forum.)

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Is Remco a great talent? Sure.
Did he prove his great talent in TT? Of course.
Did he prove he can dominate any TT anytime? Not yet.
Did he prove his great talent in some classics? Most definitely.
Did he prove he can compete in all of them and is the best current classics rider? Not yet.
Did he prove he can continually dominate 1 week stage races? Not yet.
Did he prove he can compete for the win in second level GT? Yes.
Did he prove he can win a GT against top level competition? Not yet, maybe Giro can give us some (not all) data on this.

What exactly would be the point in this questionaire? Can he dominate any TT anytime? No, not even Ganna can. Can he compete in all the classics and beat the best? No, not even Pogacar can. He has dominated more 1 week stage races than not, nobody can win them all, not even Roglic. Did he prove he can win a GT against top level competition? Where would that put Bernal? Where did it put Dumoulin?

Evenepoel doesn't need to be the best at everything in order to fulfil his potential. Nobody is the best at everything, not even Pogacar. He is currently (imho) one of the two best riders in the world overall. There are gaps in his portfolio that he will likely never be able to fill, but those gaps will be smaller than the gaps of Van der Poel, Van Aert or Alaphilippe, Roglic or Vingegaard. All worldclass riders in their own right. So what is the point in asking whether he has proven to be the very best at TT, GT, classics, etc. He has 3 podium spots in 3 WCC TT participations, he is one of the most dominant TT'ers in the world, even if he doesn't win everything. In 250k one-day races where he actually started as teamleader, he has a 100% win ratio (3 out of 3). There are only 3 GT's per year, he has won one. He is reigning WCC. There is nothing left to prove for him to be anything less than a phenomenon. He wins classics, he wins TT's he wins GT's and WCC's. He wins by huge margins. Further nitpicking is preposterous and it is one of the reasons why people often feel the need to defend him. Because no matter what race he wins, be it WCC, GT or monument, some people always find a way to downplay his achievements and act like he still has everything to prove.

 

[Wvv]

Cmon. That is harsh and unfair.

The poster has only been trying to lift up his favorite rider... and it surely has not been easy when others have constantly been trying to ridicule the poster for it. Now when the rider is underperforming, because of different factors, some people are pretty fast to act spiteful. That is not cool to act to either of the two.

I'll admit that it was an easy joke. Although, he should be able to handle this since he himself is an infamous troll on many occasions. Reap what you sow.

However, I'm the first to be happy for Fausto and Ilmaestro when he'll put in a nice performance or get a win somewhere. I'm also that guy.

 

[yaco]

One can just not react/respond and ignore it if the opinion doesn't matter or you find the discussion isn't going anywhere.

I'm not a big fan of the ignore button since it deprives yourself out of meaningful reactions just because you didn't like an opinion of that person. It is a sign of weakness to make your own echo chamber/safe space. If you can't handle others opinions on subjects, one shouldn't be on the internet . (real life should also be a *** in that case). Of course harassing or singling out people to call names etc are a whole other thing and that is up to the higher levels ;D. (Giving riders a nickname isn't a problem I assume. Not everyone can share the same vision or sees things through the same lens as others. I guess as long as people aren't name calling each other...)



That said asside:

Pitty Masnada isn't going well. It read he was a bit sick (again) during Romandia. Apperently he told the team he shouldn't be in the 1st pick based on how he was feeling. (he is still reserve for the Giro).
I hope he gets to his old level later this year, or at least shows sign he can get back to his old level.
And our Masnada fans should keep cheering/believing in him! If he can get to the tour team he might be free to do what he wants. (since i don't think they have anyone for the GC;just stage races).

I ignore this poster - I merely responded to give a possible reason why the poster is being attacked.

 

[Extinction]

We have to be strategically realistic on the body type that can ride serious cobble events. There is a reason that 99% of the winners are close to 6', 170 lbs. You have to be bigger to ride big gears forever on jarring pavement and taller to see what will kill your chances. Suggesting a 5' 7" and 140 lb rider can compete with a 6'4", 170 lb Ganna and 6', 160 lb Moscon is an unconnected logic leap. Why should Remco be able to do that?

More over; with Remco's talent, why would he want to?

Because Remco has phenomenal power and he's Belgian, so he'll be keen to give it a go one day. Plus Gilbert was good on the pavè and he's not that big.

 

[houtdffan]

His final training, 4 hour ITT. Did it at nearly 45km/h

De laatste training van Remco Evenepoel voor de Giro: vier uur op de (tijdrit)fiets aan een gemiddelde van bijna 45 (!) kilometer per uur

En of Remco Evenepoel klaar is voor de Giro. Dinsdag werkte de wereldkampioen in Spanje zijn laatste training af alvorens hij woensdagavond naar Italië afzakt voor de Giro-start van zaterdag. En het was een stevige.

www.nieuwsblad.be

 

[Panda Claws]

If you don't find the complaints annoying, then there is no problem, we can maybe disagree about the observation, but that's another debate.
Now, if you do find them annoying, it's very likely the complaints are made by fans/haters of Y and thus you find them annoying, from that would follow that in all cases where the complains are actually made by the fans/haters of Y, your statement would logically contradict itself.


No one has a crystal ball and even if one would have it, its prognosis would not be a legitimate argument in the debate, as any debate about the future would be made pointless by it.
If on the other hand we believe that we all have crystal balls, but they are showing different things, they are made pointless in themselves, let alone in terms of debate.
I'm not disputing Belgians knowing their talents, but talents are just potential until actualized.
Is Remco a great talent? Sure.
Did he prove his great talent in TT? Of course.
Did he prove he can dominate any TT anytime? Not yet.
Did he prove his great talent in some classics? Most definitely.
Did he prove he can compete in all of them and is the best current classics rider? Not yet.
Did he prove he can continually dominate 1 week stage races? Not yet.
Did he prove he can compete for the win in second level GT? Yes.
Did he prove he can win a GT against top level competition? Not yet, maybe Giro can give us some (not all) data on this.

Sure one can always make "blind" predictions and feel good (or brag about it) when the predictions turn out to be correct. But one also has to acknowledge when the predictions turn out to be false (and take the bragging of others).
Needless to say, bragging before results are known is childish and in terms of debate only serves to provoke the opponent on a non rational basis. (There were certainly examples of that from some members of this forum.)

Of course your post is wholly besides the point and could at best be 'technically correct'.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

His final training, 4 hour ITT. Did it at nearly 45km/h

De laatste training van Remco Evenepoel voor de Giro: vier uur op de (tijdrit)fiets aan een gemiddelde van bijna 45 (!) kilometer per uur

En of Remco Evenepoel klaar is voor de Giro. Dinsdag werkte de wereldkampioen in Spanje zijn laatste training af alvorens hij woensdagavond naar Italië afzakt voor de Giro-start van zaterdag. En het was een stevige.

www.nieuwsblad.be

Somebody flagged his ride.

EDIT: oh, he did part of the training behind a moped according to Sporza.

 

[Mayomaniac]

If Hirt stays healthy and hits peak shape Remco won't need many more guys in the high mountains. I rate him highly and he can potentially handle cold and rainy weather really well.

 

[how yes no?]

What exactly would be the point in this questionaire? Can he dominate any TT anytime? No, not even Ganna can. Can he compete in all the classics and beat the best? No, not even Pogacar can. He has dominated more 1 week stage races than not, nobody can win them all, not even Roglic. Did he prove he can win a GT against top level competition? Where would that put Bernal? Where did it put Dumoulin?

Evenepoel doesn't need to be the best at everything in order to fulfil his potential. Nobody is the best at everything, not even Pogacar. He is currently (imho) one of the two best riders in the world overall. There are gaps in his portfolio that he will likely never be able to fill, but those gaps will be smaller than the gaps of Van der Poel, Van Aert or Alaphilippe, Roglic or Vingegaard. All worldclass riders in their own right. So what is the point in asking whether he has proven to be the very best at TT, GT, classics, etc. He has 3 podium spots in 3 WCC TT participations, he is one of the most dominant TT'ers in the world, even if he doesn't win everything. In 250k one-day races where he actually started as teamleader, he has a 100% win ratio (3 out of 3). There are only 3 GT's per year, he has won one. He is reigning WCC. There is nothing left to prove for him to be anything less than a phenomenon. He wins classics, he wins TT's he wins GT's and WCC's. He wins by huge margins. Further nitpicking is preposterous and it is one of the reasons why people often feel the need to defend him. Because no matter what race he wins, be it WCC, GT or monument, some people always find a way to downplay his achievements and act like he still has everything to prove.

The point would be (as you later correctly understood) to make a contrast between talent and current state of actualization of it. Its an example of my statement above it, about talent being only potential until actualized.
The questions asked are imho applicable to him and I see him as potentially having the talent to achieve all of them. I didn't for example ask if he's the best sprinter in the world (not that he's terrible).
Evenepoel doesn't need to be the best at "everything", to be one of the greats for years to come, but he might have the talent to be the best at "everything" anyway, and maybe he will also manage to actualize it in results. Questions left on the table, should tell us if we're talking about the potential goat, not "just a regular-once-a-decade" phenomenon.

Roglič did not prove he can win GT against top level competition, but he proved he can very legitimately compete for the win.
Bernal never won a GT vs top level, or the top level in 2019 tour and 2021 giro was really quite low. We don't know what would happen in the future without the injury, but currently (presumed form level) I'd rank Evenepoel as a better GT rider than Bernal ever was, and while it's not proved with results yet, there is evidence that makes more than a completely "blind" prediction.
Dumoulain is a difficult case, as his GT abilities seem very similar to Remcos, and I had a deep respect for his GT abilities before the 2019 Giro accident. I would probably rank Evenepoel current GT abilities around Domoulain in his better years, based on the evidence I see and take into account.

 

[peterfin]

Or perhaps people we able to see where Remco was headed. I got the same insanity when I was yelling at Chelsea fans (of which I am one) and Mourinho fans that letting go of Kevin De Bruyne wopuld be the biggest mistake in the history of football and they'd rue it for a long long time.

Now to be fair to Chelsea they did win PL titles and even a CL trophy after KDB left, but KDB has gone on to be one of the best CMs in the world for a decade.

Us Belgians do not have a lot to crow about, but we are acutely aware of the talents and abilities of Belgian cyclists and football players.

I got that ever since Remco's junior WC road title. It was an insane result on top of an insane year of somebody who could not have reached its full potential at that age due to his short history on a bike. Although he didn't know what a peloton or gravel stroke was, he had already the physical abilities and winners mindset to destroy the field. We all know of juniors that don't live up to the expectations but it was clear that he was different ... at least to me and many fans on this forum, not so to many others who saw his aparent limits (experience, lack of sprint, climbing at altitude etc) as show stoppers.

Belgians don't have a lot to crow about outside a few superstar in cycling and soccer but at least we have the Belgian Bullet now! He may be a better fit in our beer culture 😉

 

[DNP-Old]

Snooker is not a sport.

 

[Carrick-On-Seine]

Snooker is not a sport.

But it's nice to see the British get beat at leisure activities they invented. Same with darts and golf.

Anyway, interesting interview with Logic's favourite DS about how the Giro team came together and what roles they have:

Een unieke inkijk in de totstandkoming van Team Evenepoel: "We zaten steeds op 1 lijn met Remco"

De puzzel die bij elke pedaaltrap herlegd werd. Hoe heeft Soudal-Quick Step beslist heeft wie Remco Evenepoel aan het roze mag helpen? Wij legden ons oor te luisteren bij Klaas Lodewyck, een van de bezielers van Project Pink. "We begonnen met een shortlist van 12 renners", neemt hij ons stap...

sporza.be

 

[jmdirt]

One can just not react/respond and ignore it if the opinion doesn't matter or you find the discussion isn't going anywhere.

I'm not a big fan of the ignore button since it deprives yourself out of meaningful reactions just because you didn't like an opinion of that person. It is a sign of weakness to make your own echo chamber/safe space. If you can't handle others opinions on subjects, one shouldn't be on the internet . (real life should also be a *** in that case). Of course harassing or singling out people to call names etc are a whole other thing and that is up to the higher levels ;D. (Giving riders a nickname isn't a problem I assume. Not everyone can share the same vision or sees things through the same lens as others. I guess as long as people aren't name calling each other...)



That said asside:

Pitty Masnada isn't going well. It read he was a bit sick (again) during Romandia. Apperently he told the team he shouldn't be in the 1st pick based on how he was feeling. (he is still reserve for the Giro).
I hope he gets to his old level later this year, or at least shows sign he can get back to his old level.
And our Masnada fans should keep cheering/believing in him! If he can get to the tour team he might be free to do what he wants. (since i don't think they have anyone for the GC;just stage races).

The internet is/can be an escape from "real life" so creating an enjoyable experience (eco chamber if you wish) is part of that. I deal with too much stupidity every day in real life so I don't want that in my www escape. I read threads like a scrolling story so I don't necessarily pay attention to who is posting what unless is irritates me. If I continually notice the same poster, they don't need to be in my world.

4 hours on a TT bike?!
Go RE! Battle for pink!