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Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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Red Rick

Red Rick

Feb 20, 2012
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Let's say we get the scenario where Evenepoel doesn't get COVID and the stage 10 crash doesn't happen.

I don't think we can confidently say which rider would have won, apart from it being unlikely to be Thomas.

What I do think is that Catalunya may have given a somewhat false impression of how much better than the rest Roglic and Evenepoel were because they have a bigger tendency to fly high even before their big targets happen.
 
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Riek s

Jun 24, 2010
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theyoungest said:
Another comment in the 'if my grandma had wheels she'd have been a bike' category. Unsurprisingly, a lot of them come from Belgians. It's so pointless. Let me respond with another cliche: to finish first, first you have to finish. Roglic knows that all too well. And one more cliche: you have to strike when it matters. Another thing Roglic has found out the hard way. He's not here to entertain, he's here to win.

If we're talking in possible scenarios if this or that rider hadn't crashed or gotten sick, why not also consider the scenario that Roglic had stayed on his bike? He would have been a lot better as well. It seems the Michel Wuytses and Dirk De Wolfs of this world choose to ignore this option. So basically Roglic gets 'punished' for at least finishing the race. That's on par with the guy from Slovenian cycling calling Evenepoel a spoilsport for going home with covid.
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Riek s said:
Based on him being the better climber compared to Thomas, especially on the steeper stuff. (He was also doing his worst ability the flat TT on equal ground as Thomas). If we combine that with the difference between Thomas/Roglic being a coin toss...

(and being in the Remco thread, if Remco didn't got sick, Roglic/Thomas/Ameida should have ridden completely different if they wanted to be within a minute on the final podium. Hence why him dropping out, followed by Hart dropping out made this is a snore fest of riders waiting/(or just being absolute equal to each other) untill the last coin flip. Instead of needing to attack/do something to win.
We will never know if Hart/Remco would have won the race since it would have affected the riding style dramatically. The only thing i'm 100% sure of is that the Giro would have been more watchable having them in.
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as per usual people don't read, but ofcourse belgians right. (or do you mean its the belgian who say Hart could have won?)

We indeed don't know how the crash affected Roglic AND Thomas. Maybe Roglic had it worse, we don't know. Would Roglic have raced differently if he hadn't crashed? according to your own statement no. (since some on the roglic forum believe he rode to follow and put everything on the MTT).

I'm perfectly fine with people thinking this was a fantastic Giro. I think it sucked monkeyballs. Only the 3 ITTs were decent and brought something. (and those 3 ITT were the most contested part of this Giro).
If they just had ridden the MTT with the current giro peleton and removed all the time differences before, the whole top5 would have been in the same place. (that is how long they waited, the previous 19stages were for naught)
 
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EddyMazzoleni

EddyMazzoleni

Apr 26, 2023
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Riek s said:
We indeed don't know how the crash affected Roglic AND Thomas. Maybe Roglic had it worse, we don't know. Would Roglic have raced differently if he hadn't crashed? according to your own statement no. (since some on the roglic forum believe he rode to follow and put everything on the MTT).
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Well, Roglic had to get stitches, Thomas by his own word was pretty lucky because he landed on Covi. So i would say that the former had it worst.
 
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theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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Riek s said:
as per usual people don't read, but ofcourse belgians right. (or do you mean its the belgian who say Hart could have won?)

We indeed don't know how the crash affected Roglic AND Thomas. Maybe Roglic had it worse, we don't know. Would Roglic have raced differently if he hadn't crashed? according to your own statement no. (since some on the roglic forum believe he rode to follow and put everything on the MTT).

I'm perfectly fine with people thinking this was a fantastic Giro. I think it sucked monkeyballs. Only the 3 ITTs were decent and brought something. (and those 3 ITT were the most contested part of this Giro).
If they just had ridden the MTT with the current giro peleton and removed all the time differences before, the whole top5 would have been in the same place. (that is how long they waited, the previous 19stages were for naught)
Click to expand...
I noticed you mentioned Hart as the likely winner, but the idea that with Evenepoel and Hart there it would have been a totally different race, without taking into account that Roglic was far from fit as well, is a bit ludicrous. If you speak in hypotheticals, at least include every factor and not just the ones that suit your favourite. And I noticed this a lot in the Belgian press, of course mostly focused on Evenepoel.

I think multiple things can be true at the same time. Yes, Roglic rode conservatively to focus on the TT, but it's pretty clear that this was born from necessity. Or do you think he lost time on purpose on Monte Bondone, or got dropped by Thomas on Tre Cime only to pass him in a last ditch effort to make it a bit more exciting? Just like it's possible to think that no, this wasn't the most thrilling Giro ever but also that yes, it probably had something to do with the circumstances and not necessarily with the riders not wanting to race.
 
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Riek s

Jun 24, 2010
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theyoungest said:
I noticed you mentioned Hart as the likely winner, but the idea that with Evenepoel and Hart there it would have been a totally different race, without taking into account that Roglic was far from fit as well, is a bit ludicrous. If you speak in hypotheticals, at least include every factor and not just the ones that suit your favourite. And I noticed this a lot in the Belgian press, of course mostly focused on Evenepoel.

I think multiple things can be true at the same time. Yes, Roglic rode conservatively to focus on the TT, but it's pretty clear that this was born from necessity. Or do you think he lost time on purpose on Monte Bondone, or got dropped by Thomas on Tre Cime only to pass him in a last ditch effort to make it a bit more exciting? Just like it's possible to think that no, this wasn't the most thrilling Giro ever but also that yes, it probably had something to do with the circumstances and not necessarily with the riders not wanting to race.
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I reject the assumption that Roglic was far from fit. Roglic came in to the giro in top form. I assume you mean he could have been hindered by the crash? of course that is possible, we don't know since he hasn't said anything of value on it. Also hard to say since the day he wasn't able to follow was a very hard long day, which he isn't his biggest strength..)

We basically say the same thing about the thrilling of the Giro, it had something to do with the circumstances and not necesarriy with the riders not wanting to race: (e.. riders dropping out, and riders very matched to each other )
Riek s said:
Based on him being the better climber compared to Thomas, especially on the steeper stuff. (He was also doing his worst ability the flat TT on equal ground as Thomas). If we combine that with the difference between Thomas/Roglic being a coin toss...

(and being in the Remco thread, if Remco didn't got sick, Roglic/Thomas/Ameida should have ridden completely different if they wanted to be within a minute on the final podium. Hence why him dropping out, followed by Hart dropping out made this is a snore fest of riders waiting/(or just being absolute equal to each other) untill the last coin flip. Instead of needing to attack/do something to win.
We will never know if Hart/Remco would have won the race since it would have affected the riding style dramatically. The only thing i'm 100% sure of is that the Giro would have been more watchable having them in.
Click to expand...
 
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theyoungest

Jan 11, 2010
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Riek s said:
I reject the assumption that Roglic was far from fit. Roglic came in to the giro in top form. I assume you mean he could have been hindered by the crash? of course that is possible, we don't know since he hasn't said anything of value on it. Also hard to say since the day he wasn't able to follow was a very hard long day, which he isn't his biggest strength..)

We basically say the same thing about the thrilling of the Giro, it had something to do with the circumstances and not necesarriy with the riders not wanting to race: (e.. riders dropping out, and riders very matched to each other )
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He did actually say something about it, "I'm still recovering", which is just about as much as he as ever said about anything that hampers him because he's famously not very forthcoming in interviews, which he views as a necessary evil. Thomas from his own words wasn't affected by the crash at all, he didn't even hit the ground as he fell on Covi.
 
staubsauger

staubsauger

Jul 27, 2009
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EddyMazzoleni said:
Well, Roglic had to get stitches, Thomas by his own word was pretty lucky because he landed on Covi. So i would say that the former had it worst.
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Roglic crashed with Hart & Sivakov. Both had to abandon immediately or afterwards because of the crash. That suggests something. And maybe or probably my suggestion that Roglic apart from Lussari wasn't on his Vuelta a Espana level is a misinterpretation due to misprize the effect of the crash. His first 2 TT's suggest I'm not completely wrong.
 
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Panda Claws

Panda Claws

Aug 29, 2011
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VayaVayaVaya said:
Let me see if I can translate your series of posts into a position:
  • Despite how Remco described his experience, the fact that he won the ITT the day he dropped out, and the fact that he quickly returned to training, Remco felt so horrible he couldn’t continue
    • So that people don’t get the wrong idea, I generally think it is best to take Covid seriously and am fine with his decision
  • Despite Roglic having to get stitches after a fall and saying to the press he is not 100%, he is actually not hurt, just lying, and he just had a bad(ish) day, “ish” in referencing to dropping from guys he normally drops 5km out
  • If Remco had not retired from the Giro, he would have “clowned the field,” including a Roglic who is not hurt
So we are back to the classic a Remco partisan argument - Remco is the best, everyone else is a clown, Remco’s excuses are legit, others’ excuses are not.

Edit: I frequently cheer for Remco, so I am far from a hater.
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Never fun to argue with a strawman, calimero, 'victim'
 
Netserk

Netserk

Apr 30, 2011
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Red Rick said:
Let's say we get the scenario where Evenepoel doesn't get COVID and the stage 10 crash doesn't happen.

I don't think we can confidently say which rider would have won, apart from it being unlikely to be Thomas.

What I do think is that Catalunya may have given a somewhat false impression of how much better than the rest Roglic and Evenepoel were because they have a bigger tendency to fly high even before their big targets happen.
Click to expand...
If Thomas is an unlikely winner in that scenario, isn't the gap down to Almeida in Catalunya close to what you'd expect it to be in the Giro as well?
 
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peterfin

Feb 24, 2020
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Remco started training on his TT bike today. It could be in preparation for the NC TT but that's still weeks away (22/6). He also didn't test himself on the local NC parcours in Herzele for which he did a recon weeks ago. Maybe he is preparing for the TdS? The only problem here is his big fan event on 10/6 that requires his presence.
 
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houtdffan

Jul 20, 2019
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peterfin said:
Remco started training on his TT bike today. It could be in preparation for the NC TT but that's still weeks away (22/6). He also didn't test himself on the local NC parcours in Herzele for which he did a recon weeks ago. Maybe he is preparing for the TdS? The only problem here is his big fan event on 10/6 that requires his presence.
Click to expand...

TDS starts the next day. He can go to Switzerland after the fan event.

First day is a short TT anyways
 
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peterfin

Feb 24, 2020
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houtdffan said:
so, Remco won the stage very very sick

Shows just how much better than the rest of the peloton he was at the Giro
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I also believe he was way above the rest. His TT win where he destroyed everybody including Ganna was just incredible. However, it is pointless that we discuss it as it's all hypothetical. So my answer is: lets see what happens when he starts his next GT. At some point he won't get a virus or have a bad crash and we can finally evaluate his performance fully.
 
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Oldermanish

Jan 31, 2016
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houtdffan said:
so, Remco won the stage very very sick

Shows just how much better than the rest of the peloton he was at the Giro
Click to expand...
Nope. He was good, then felt off and wasn't going to recover. The suggestion that he was very ill and still did a great TT is pretty uninformed speculation. The he could not recover is what he and his team could confirm. Taking him into the next stage while ill with Covid would be stupid and irresponsible.
 
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Oldermanish

Jan 31, 2016
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SHAD0W93 said:
Especially with the weather and how it was raced.
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Totally relevant. Why wreck Remco's health, diminish his marketability and psyche all in a week or so of futile effort?
Those that complain about the level of racing after he departed should attempt to ride their best effort after two weeks of tense rides in sh*t weather, a crash or two and some hailstorms thrown in for good measure. Getting out of bed would be a challenge let alone entertaining the warm and well-rested critics of the sport.
 
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