Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Eddy Evenepoel]

I wrote many times about this. Buy my book.

where can I buy this?

 

[Ilmaestro99]

It's a book full of sh** with every page saying that daniel martinez can do monster climbing performances and that he is above sepp kuss

Volta Algarve official book.?

 

[how yes no?]

We should praise riders for the right reasons and those reasons are their character, how they win and loose, not their talent. They didn't choose to be born with some power output or lung capacity, but they surely can be praised or blamed for behaving in such or such a way.

I don't completly agree with this.
First, you can't dictate (but you can try to educate the willing (you did try to reason it)) what one should or should not like, you can do all sorts, even prove something is bad for the person and the society, but you can't make a person like something or not, even if you force them to act some way.
Second, in cycling as a competition, some measures are given in advance. Being able to perform well in races (with regards to ones role) is one such important measure and very much related to the talent (lung capacity, regeneration,...) one is "born with".
But I agree that cyclists as persons and their character is of course also a very important measure, one that goes wider than just cycling.

 

[rghysens]

If Remco were French, he'd never lose a TDF again

We'd have 2 100km ITTs in the race every single year

And barely any high mountains.

 

[Berniece]

It speaks volumes about how some users seem to lack minimum reading skills and emotional intelligence regarding how they misinterpreted the "buy my book" pun for a description of reality. That they additionaly got mad, enraged or resentful about what I wrote and still remember posts I made weeks ago just states how toxic this thread is and how the only way to deal with some "personalities" is having a sense of humour.

You really think too much of yourself and the weight of your words

 

[frisenfruitig]

Have you guys ever heard of the phrase "don't feed the troll"?

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So, considering his weight and previous discussions. I just came across an older article, that stated he weighed 61.5kg going into the Vuelta '22. And that he weighed 63kg going into the Giro '23. Because they had seen his TT "numbers" -though he convincingly won it- in the Vuelta were not among his best. So for the Giro they wanted to weigh more. So maybe i don't need glasses after all, @shadowrider. And it looks like i was right all along in '22 @Valv.Piti considering his projected target weight.

In a recent article with his trainer, Koen Pelgrim, he (his trainer) says for longer climbs it is better to weigh a little less (hinting about the Tour). And yet in the article prior to the Giro they wanted him to weigh less for the short steep climbs in the '22 Vuelta. His trainer said that weighing 63kg in the Giro would not be an issue in the first week of the Giro... What the article doesn't say however, is what about the second half of the Giro? Were they going to do a liposuction after the 2nd TT? Were they going to muck around with his diet (like they might very well have done in the Vuelta before he bonked)? Or was the knowledge of weighing less being better for longer climbs unknown to them at that moment or did they get Vuelta and Giro climbs mixed up, in terms of length?

Anyway, again proof that they would risk a good climbing performance and not losing minutes in the mountains, for gaining a few seconds in the TT.

 

[scribers]

If Remco were French, he'd never lose a TDF again

We'd have 2 100km ITTs in the race every single year

I still don’t think he can shake off JulySkeletor under this circumstance

 

[Froome]

So, considering his weight and previous discussions. I just came across an older article, that stated he weighed 61.5kg going into the Vuelta '22. And that he weighed 63kg going into the Giro '23. Because they had seen his TT "numbers" -though he convincingly won it- in the Vuelta were not among his best. So for the Giro they wanted to weigh more. So maybe i don't need glasses after all, @shadowrider. And it looks like i was right all along in '22 @Valv.Piti considering his projected target weight.

In a recent article with his trainer, Koen Pelgrim, he (his trainer) says for longer climbs it is better to weigh a little less (hinting about the Tour). And yet in the article prior to the Giro they wanted him to weigh less for the short steep climbs in the '22 Vuelta. His trainer said that weighing 63kg in the Giro would not be an issue in the first week of the Giro... What the article doesn't say however, is what about the second half of the Giro? Were they going to do a liposuction after the 2nd TT? Were they going to muck around with his diet (like they might very well have done in the Vuelta before he bonked)? Or was the knowledge of weighing less being better for longer climbs unknown to them at that moment or did they get Vuelta and Giro climbs mixed up, in terms of length?

Anyway, again proof that they would risk a good climbing performance and not losing minutes in the mountains, for gaining a few seconds in the TT.

I don't think 1.5 kg would make a difference in the sense of losing or not minutes in the mountains.

Talking about the vuelta 2023, i think the problem for him could had be the specific work he did in the preparation for the Vuelta. He tried to do at the same time specific work for the WC TT, and specific work for the Vuelta, and that didn't benefited him for the Vuelta.

 

[Berniece]

I don't think 1.5 kg would make a difference in the sense of losing or not minutes in the mountains.

Talking about the vuelta 2023, i think the problem for him could had be the specific work he did in the preparation for the Vuelta. He tried to do at the same time specific work for the WC TT, and specific work for the Vuelta, and that didn't benefited him for the Vuelta.

I don't know, when you look at w/kg, 1.5kg does have an impact. I can imagine over a long period of time (3 weeks), this can take it's toll

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I don't think 1.5 kg would make a difference in the sense of losing or not minutes in the mountains.

Talking about the vuelta 2023, i think the problem for him could had be the specific work he did in the preparation for the Vuelta. He tried to do at the same time specific work for the WC TT, and specific work for the Vuelta, and that didn't benefited him for the Vuelta.

lol, yes it makes a huge difference. Why would Vingegaard weigh 58kg if 1.5 don't matter? Why would Rasmussen peel the paint off his bike? One of the trainers of Dumoulin at Sunweb said (back then) every kg means 30s loss per half hour climbed. So 1.5kg would mean 45s per 30 minutes. That's not taking into account the efforts of previous climbs when you have to waste more energy in order to keep up. So in the final climb you might well lose more than 45s.

 

[Netserk]

At optimal weight, your marginal W/kg will be close to your average W/kg.

 

[proffate]

So we are talking regular dexa scans and some arbitrary number as a max body fat? When is this scan performed? The day before the race? This sounds ridiculous.

Pushing the boundaries have always been fundamental to the sport and nutrition is just part of that.

Sure, day before the race sounds good, like a combat sports weigh in. I'd also imagine some regularly scheduled points throughout the season. Enforcement need not involve a ban, just can't compete until you get back up to 5% or whatever. They have mobile dexa scans in vans in my area, and they're actually cheaper than blood tests. I don't think the biggest hurdle would be in the implementation details, but in convincing traditionalists that there's even a problem to be addressed.

As to pushing the boundaries: is that an argument for not having any rules at all? Every rule in the book defines some line that cannot be crossed. Is the sport improved if we let them push the boundary of socks and suddenly everyone has lycra tubes up to their knees, or the true boundary of HPV performance and everyone's in an enclosed recumbent?

 

[houtdffan]

I still don’t think he can shake off JulySkeletor under this circumstance

oh he would in those TTs.

Those are longer than the infamous 87.5km ITT that occurred in the 80s

 

[Extinction]

Sounds like a way to punish riders who naturally can hold a lower % of body fat.

There is already a very clear feedback mechanism in place. If you go too far you can't put out the watts anymore.

That's what I think. If you go too low, then the body doesn't perform, simple as that. Thus there is a natural, autoregulatory mechanism in place. As you say, if a rider can naturally hold a lower body fat percentage and still maintain optimal force, he is "healthy" and so who is the UCI to say he can't race. That would be absurd. It would go against the sport itself. And I'm not talking about illicit means to lower body fat while maintaining power, which of course should be banned and a rider punished for using them. But if a guy can race strong at 2-3% BF, then he isn't sick and should not be forced to raise his adipose tissue. It's an extreme sport that places crazy physiological demands on participants, such that if they actually can maintain lower BF without losing force, they will experience less fatigue, less stress on muscles and organs, and thus be doing less "harm" to themselves.

 

[proffate]

Sounds like a way to punish riders who naturally can hold a lower % of body fat.

There is already a very clear feedback mechanism in place. If you go too far you can't put out the watts anymore.

yea, that's certainly true. No one is dropping weight to the point that their performance suffers. The question is whether there's a zone where performance doesn't suffer but other health parameters (bone density, hormones, etc) do suffer, and if there's a zone that's achievable with help but not paniagua.

Basically: racing performance does not imply health, and we should not be encouraging riders to sacrifice health for results where we can help it. By the same token, there are concussion protocols in place, even though in the past some riders might have raced through a mild concussion or at least rolled the dice on what could be a concussion in order to continue in a stage race.

But if a guy can race strong at 2-3% BF

I don't think that's achievable naturally any more than 60% hematocrit has a chance of being natural. The cutoff for everyone is different, and any imposed limit would need to be at the bottom of that range.

 

[Netserk]

we should not be encouraging riders to sacrifice health for results

We should.

If you want to be healthy, be an amateur.

 

[repre]

We should.

If you want to be healthy, be an amateur.

If you want to be healthy, be on the couch. Amateur sports generally are way more risky, cause you get injured too, but nobody take care of you...

 

[Krzysztof_O]

lol, yes it makes a huge difference. Why would Vingegaard weigh 58kg if 1.5 don't matter? Why would Rasmussen peel the paint off his bike? One of the trainers of Dumoulin at Sunweb said (back then) every kg means 30s loss per half hour climbed. So 1.5kg would mean 45s per 30 minutes. That's not taking into account the efforts of previous climbs when you have to waste more energy in order to keep up. So in the final climb you might well lose more than 45s.

Yup, there's no way around physics. 1 kg less is around 1.5-1.6% reduction of mass and gain of power/mass for GT riders. Which is roughly 1/60th so a 30 seconds loss in a 30 minute all-out effort. Obviously at some tipping point one starts losing power quickly so one can't trim down infinitely (maybe except Skeletor but he's not even a human).

 

[Netserk]

Yup, there's no way around physics. 1 kg less is around 1.5-1.6% reduction of mass and gain of power/mass for GT riders. Which is roughly 1/60th so a 30 seconds loss in a 30 minute all-out effort. Obviously at some tipping point one starts losing power quickly so one can't trim down infinitely (maybe except Skeletor but he's not even a human).

Under that assumption, there would be no gain for ITTs with added weight. So why didn't Evenepoel weigh 62 kg at Glasgow?

 

[Froome]

lol, yes it makes a huge difference. Why would Vingegaard weigh 58kg if 1.5 don't matter? Why would Rasmussen peel the paint off his bike? One of the trainers of Dumoulin at Sunweb said (back then) every kg means 30s loss per half hour climbed. So 1.5kg would mean 45s per 30 minutes. That's not taking into account the efforts of previous climbs when you have to waste more energy in order to keep up. So in the final climb you might well lose more than 45s.

Maybe the plan was losing 1.5 kg until the last week.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Under that assumption, there would be no gain for ITTs with added weight. So why didn't Evenepoel weigh 62 kg at Glasgow?

One also loses power with reduced weight, which I mentioned. Obviously mass loss more than compensates for it in the mountains but OTOH power gain more than compensates for mass gain on flatter terrain. So theoretical 30 seconds per 30 minute on a standalone climb may be too much (or apply when someone isn't close to his optimal weight and carries too much fat), however at the end of a multi-col stage the difference could be significant indeed.

 

[Extinction]

The question is whether there's a zone where performance doesn't suffer but other health parameters (bone density, hormones, etc) do suffer, and if there's a zone that's achievable with help but not paniagua.

Of course, and I don't know the answer to these questions, however, if it's done with substances then they will be identified and banned. Although, as it is so often said, pharmacology of doping is always a few steps ahead of the pharmachology of anti-doping. I still, however, unless better data becomes available, don't think they can set a limit on BF percentage. Or if they find the super low percantages, with super watts output isn't being acheived on pane e acqua alone, then they may set a lowness limit, the way they did a highness limit for hematecrit.

 

[125C]

Under that assumption, there would be no gain for ITTs with added weight. So why didn't Evenepoel weigh 62 kg at Glasgow?

Presumably with the primarily flat course the small improvement in climbing speed would be offset by a reduction in w/CdA on the flat sections that dominated the course.

 

[KenFiamingo]

Don't forget the Remco's weight-to-aeroskin ratio! Gaining 2kg means more volume, which means more exposed skin which mean bigger aerodynamic advantage.