Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[houtdffan]

And Roglic?

based upon this race, Rog should be Vlasov's donkey as Vlasov chases stage wins

 

[Oldermanish]

It's the first time Jorgenson finished ahead of Remco in GC. He has improved a lot.

That's due to equal parts Jorgensen's stellar efforts and the fact that Remco was racing against everyone strategically. Jorgensen had the luxury of having a lower profile and another team protecting the GC for most of the week. We also shouldn't discount the very real TTT time impacts of weather on Remco and Roglic's teams.

 

[Oldermanish]

Jorgenson has talent. He appeared to me to be a young rider on a slow rise. Able (at his best) to compete for some wins, but never really having a big win.

Comfortably winning this race and looking like he could have done a lot more is an entirely different level for him. IMO. He has never looked like a rider who could win big races, win easily, or win comfortably.

I don't see how one could claim Visma had/has nothing to do with this. He's a very different rider on this team, quite apparently.

You missed his Tour de France and other rides last year? They were almost all solo efforts and happened several times without much Movistar support. He's not much different than last year in power. He worked hard enough to make that happen; not given a magic cape by Visma. Visma definitely makes those efforts easier now with the support they can provide and more financial security.
You don't win a WT stage race by yourself, whomever you may be.
From Procycling Stats:

Top results​

• 
  GC Paris-Nice ('24)
• 
  GC Tour of Oman ('23)
• 2nd
  GC Tour de Romandie ('23)
• 
  stage Tour of Oman ('23)
• 2nd
  stage Paris-Nice ('24)
• 3rd
  stage Tour de France ('23)
• 3x 4th
  stage Tour de France ('23, '22)
• 2nd
  stage Tour de Romandie ('23)
• 4th
  E3 Saxo Classic ('23)
• 4th
  GC Tour de la Provence ('22)
• 2nd
  stage Tour of Britain ('21)
• 2nd
  stage Tour of Oman ('23)

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

There’s as much irrational exuberance and defeatism in this thread as there is in Roglic’s; truly they are the yin and the yang.

I must say, after the previous efforts, what Evenepoel did today was no less exceptional than Pogacar or Vingegaard, but with a deceptive result, because he did not win GC (Roglic? Bernal? left in the wake). Jorgensen indeed deserves PN, a real gladiator. Chapeaux

No, that was in no way as impressive as what Vingegaard and Pogacar have displayed this season.

Funny result. On paper before the race a 2nd with a stage and some jerseys is very good. But given how Roglic was so weak, and the tactical disasterclass, remco should have won this race.

Unless something changes drastically he won't compete with Jonas in Basque country, Dauphine, tour, he won't compete with Pogacar on Liege or the classics guys in Paris. I don't see him win fleche wallonne. Looks like it will be hard to find big victories this year, maybe an amstel gold race and another worlds championships.

So this seems a big missed opportunity. Oh well, he is young rider , he can learn.

No, he will not be unable to compete with classics guys this year.

 

[Froome]

Who said that? He said after the race he is not in top form, he is working towards the summer, he won't do altitude yet (and hasn't gone yet either).

Probably he is using a hypobaric chamber at the moment.

 

[red_flanders]

You missed his Tour de France and other rides last year? They were almost all solo efforts and happened several times without much Movistar support. He's not much different than last year in power. He worked hard enough to make that happen; not given a magic cape by Visma. Visma definitely makes those efforts easier now with the support they can provide and more financial security.
You don't win a WT stage race by yourself, whomever you may be.
From Procycling Stats:

Top results​

• 
  GC Paris-Nice ('24)
• 
  GC Tour of Oman ('23)
• 2nd
  GC Tour de Romandie ('23)
• 
  stage Tour of Oman ('23)
• 2nd
  stage Paris-Nice ('24)
• 3rd
  stage Tour de France ('23)
• 3x 4th
  stage Tour de France ('23, '22)
• 2nd
  stage Tour de Romandie ('23)
• 4th
  E3 Saxo Classic ('23)
• 4th
  GC Tour de la Provence ('22)
• 2nd
  stage Tour of Britain ('21)
• 2nd
  stage Tour of Oman ('23)

Hey if you want to argue with Jorgensen that he’s on another level this year, please, be my guest.

 

[Extinction]

There’s as much irrational exuberance and defeatism in this thread as there is in Roglic’s; truly they are the yin and the yang.

No, that was in no way as impressive as what Vingegaard and Pogacar have displayed this season.

No, he will not be unable to compete with classics guys this year.

I meant in terms of time, if you consider the time gaps back to Bernal (2+Min) and Roglic (4+min), which is quite a bit.

 

[Oldermanish]

Hey if you want to argue with Jorgensen that he’s on another level this year, please, be my guest.

Why would I have a conversation with him? He's clearly realistic about how his incremental work has paid off.
I would argue the proposal that Visma had a large part in his success and any off-book implications that may have. The kid did the work and was smart enough to beat Roglic, Remco and their teams while being humble.

 

[AmRacer]

You seem to think altitude training is some marginal gain. Not being in top form with altitude training =/= not being in top form without altitude training.

It's you who talk about Remco isn't in shape due to not being at altitude yet.

 

[Oldermanish]

I meant in terms of time, at least comparable to Vingo, if you consider the gaps back to Bernal and Roglic.

I would say Bernal has shown real progress and his limit for this early season was reached. Roglic would have his own explanation but he showed the signs of being underraced and probably undermotivated on a cold, rainy day after his teammate made the decisive break. Nothing definitive about that.

 

[Extinction]

Why would I have a conversation with him? He's clearly realistic about how his incremental work has paid off.
I would argue the proposal that Visma had a large part in his success and any off-book implications that may have. The kid did the work and was smart enough to beat Roglic, Remco and their teams while being humble.

You can't deny, however, he made a huge leap in performance from his Movistar days. The fact that it's been on team that swept all three GTs last year is surely no coincidence.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Some perspective, Bernal finished 3rd in Gran Camino GC and only lost 48s to Vingegaard on the queen mountain stage.
Vingegaard took 42s on Pidcock and 46 on Kämna in the TA queen stage.

It's you who talk about Remco isn't in shape due to not being at altitude yet.

Be-cause... it's a pretty important factor? You keep comparing his efforts to riders who have been at altitude.

 

[Extinction]

I would say Bernal has shown real progress and his limit for this early season was reached. Roglic would have his own explanation but he showed the signs of being underraced and probably undermotivated on a cold, rainy day after his teammate made the decisive break. Nothing definitive about that.

Of course nothing definitive, but each raced in the same conditions and were pretty evenly matched until yesterday, which is why I still say what Evenepoel did was very impressive. Had he dropped Jorgensen people would have said he did something like Pog at Strade or Vingo in TA. That he did not only shows how shockingly good the American was, not that Evenepoel was less impressive IMHO.

 

[AmRacer]

Some perspective, Bernal finished 3rd in Gran Camino GC and only lost 48s to Vingegaard on the queen mountain stage.
Vingegaard took 42s on Pidcock and 46 on Kämna in the TA queen stage.


Be-cause... it's a pretty important factor? You keep comparing his efforts to riders who have been at altitude.

So you are saying we shouldn't compare riders who hasn't had the exactly same preparation.

 

[red_flanders]

You can't deny, however, he made a huge leap in performance from his Movistar days. The fact that it's been on team that swept all three GTs last year is surely no coincidence.

That’s exactly what’s being denied, or I’m stumped at what about my post is being debated. I thought I was simply stating the obvious.

 

[Extinction]

That’s exactly what’s being denied, or I’m stumped at what about my post is being debated. I thought I was simply stating the obvious.

I know he's denyed it, but it can't be and, yes, you've been stating the obvious.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So you are saying we shouldn't compare riders who hasn't had the exactly same preparation.

You keep acting as if going on altitude is some insignificant detail. It isn't. If you want to compare a rider who did altitude training to one who didn't, knock yourself out. Just be aware your comparison will be quite meaningles.

 

[AmRacer]

You keep acting as if going on altitude is some insignificant detail. It isn't. If you want to compare a rider who did altitude training to one who didn't, knock yourself out. Just be aware your comparison will be quite meaningles.

So we shouldn't compare any riders who hasn't had the exactly same preparation. Got it.
Jonas and Pog could win without having perfect preparation.

 

[Oldermanish]

You can't deny, however, he made a huge leap in performance from his Movistar days. The fact that it's been on team that swept all three GTs last year is surely no coincidence.

Research his results from the past few years, much of it with less help than Movistar gave him. Then tell us all it wasn't forseeable riding for a team with a bit more help than Movistar. Your barely concealed implication belongs in another thread where a certain fan base goes to complain about their boy getting beat.
If history proves this incorrect; then you can resurrect your "no coincidence" suggestion with my cynical acknowlegement.

 

[DNP-Old]

So we shouldn't compare any riders who hasn't had the exactly same preparation. Got it.
Jonas and Pog could win without having perfect preparation.

Now what?

 

[AmRacer]

Now what?

Who's number one? Poggi?

 

[Oldermanish]

Now what?

Humorously well put. David wins Le Tour 2024? Who beat him?

 

[DNP-Old]

'Jonas and Pog could win without having perfect preparation.'
> Gets proven wrong with an image which shows Vingegaard with not perfect preparation lost to Gaudu
*Points towards rider in #1 with perfect preparation*

Lol.

 

[Extinction]

Research his results from the past few years, much of it with less help than Movistar gave him. Then tell us all it wasn't forseeable riding for a team with a bit more help than Movistar. Your barely concealed implication belongs in another thread where a certain fan base goes to complain about their boy getting beat.
If history proves this incorrect; then you can resurrect your "no coincidence" suggestion with my cynical acknowlegement.

I'm not implying anything, so, no, my statement doesn't belong in another thread. Jorgensen, while at Movistar, simply did not show anything that would have suggested he could win PN period and you making assertions to the contrary doesn't change that. The results you posted before aren't that impressive, not in terms of "predicting" a win in PN anyway. Had he not moved to Visma, Jorgensen certainly would not have gotten on the highest step of the podium in Nice yesterday. Ergo it's Visma that's made the difference.

 

[AmRacer]

'Jonas and Pog could win without having perfect preparation.'
> Gets proven wrong with an image which shows Vingegaard with not perfect preparation lost to Gaudu
*Points towards rider in #1 with perfect preparation*

Lol.

Vinge hadn't been at altitude and was sick. He also was too fat and had wrong helmet.
So Jonas was only at 57 percent. Had he been at 62 percent....