Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[frisenfruitig]

What are you guys even debating here? Does anyone believe that -with or without perfect preparation- Remco is the same calibre as Vingegaard or Pogacar as a GC rider?

We'll see this year how he stacks up against them with a perfect preparation but I'm not expecting anything above 3rd place. Considering how dominant both Pogacar and Vingegaard have been in the tdf it just isn't realistic to expect more. I would be happy to be surprised though.

 

[Rackham]

Evenepoel was at his strongest in the first 10 days of the 2022 Vuelta. As an observer, that's my personal opinion. I'm talking stage racing, i.e. sure Liège last year was impressive but stage racing is a different type of effort. His form in the 2022 Vuelta was very good & it's the best I've ever seen him tbh.

I think in that form he can hang around with Vinge & Pog over the first part of the Tour. It depends for how long though (as we saw last year, eventually Pog exploded due to overdoing it for two weeks).

I also think he's his own worst enemy (& his fans are as well). If he goes to the Tour & starts attacking constantly, he'll burn out real fast. So when I read people saying he needs to be 'himself' & race aggressively (which is something his fans seem to want), I think that's actually guaranteed to make him blow up in July considering how fast Visma & UAE drill the bunch in the difficult stages.

The best option would be to sit on wheels. Survive as much as possible & then mug them in the final ITT.

 

[Salvarani]

Evenepoel was at his strongest in the first 10 days of the 2022 Vuelta. As an observer, that's my personal opinion. I'm talking stage racing, i.e. sure Liège last year was impressive but stage racing is a different type of effort. His form in the 2022 Vuelta was very good & it's the best I've ever seen him tbh.

I think in that form he can hang around with Vinge & Pog over the first part of the Tour. It depends for how long though (as we saw last year, eventually Pog exploded due to overdoing it for two weeks).

I also think he's his own worst enemy (& his fans are as well). If he goes to the Tour & starts attacking constantly, he'll burn out real fast. So when I read people saying he needs to be 'himself' & race aggressively (which is something his fans seem to want), I think that's actually guaranteed to make him blow up in July considering how fast Visma & UAE drill the bunch in the difficult stages.

The best option would be to sit on wheels. Survive as much as possible & then mug them in the final ITT.

Stage 4 will say a lot about his chances and of course the end of week 2.

Honestly, I dont see it. He will have to climb better than ever before. I will be happily surprised if he can match the best.

 

[Berflamand]

I also think he's his own worst enemy (& his fans are as well). If he goes to the Tour & starts attacking constantly, he'll burn out real fast. So when I read people saying he needs to be 'himself' & race aggressively (which is something his fans seem to want), I think that's actually guaranteed to make him blow up in July considering how fast Visma & UAE drill the bunch in the difficult stages.

The best option would be to sit on wheels. Survive as much as possible & then mug them in the final ITT.

I think those comments that he needs to be himself & race aggressively are mostly related to the one-week stage races and not to the Grand Tours.

Personally however, I would very much like him to be as agressive as possible in the first week and get one or more stagewins and a couple of days in yellow even if this means he blows up later and ends up something like 6th in GC on 12 minutes. I'd prefer that over coming third in GC a couple of minutes behind Pog/Vinge after riding a very defensive race and maybe never being in contention for any stage win.

That's just personal preference though (a preference probably not shared by Remco himself) and because as of now I don't see a scenario where he can actually win against Pog/Vinge, not even when he races super defensive.

Now if he were to absolutely boss the Dauphiné and it would look like he can actually realistically take the fight to Pog/Vinge, I would definitively change my view but this seems unlikely.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So we shouldn't compare any riders who hasn't had the exactly same preparation. Got it.
Jonas and Pog could win without having perfect preparation.

Well you haven't got it, clearly.
Furthermore, Evenepoel has also won plenty of races without perfect preparation. Just not this one, and not because he was not the strongest rider, but because he got outplayed tactically.

Evenepoel was at his strongest in the first 10 days of the 2022 Vuelta. As an observer, that's my personal opinion. I'm talking stage racing, i.e. sure Liège last year was impressive but stage racing is a different type of effort. His form in the 2022 Vuelta was very good & it's the best I've ever seen him tbh.

I think in that form he can hang around with Vinge & Pog over the first part of the Tour. It depends for how long though (as we saw last year, eventually Pog exploded due to overdoing it for two weeks).

I also think he's his own worst enemy (& his fans are as well). If he goes to the Tour & starts attacking constantly, he'll burn out real fast. So when I read people saying he needs to be 'himself' & race aggressively (which is something his fans seem to want), I think that's actually guaranteed to make him blow up in July considering how fast Visma & UAE drill the bunch in the difficult stages.

The best option would be to sit on wheels. Survive as much as possible & then mug them in the final ITT.

I think most of his fans are aware that there is a difference between riding the Tour vs Pog/Vinge and riding PN against Jorgenson/McNulty. He lost in PN because he got outplayed tactically in 3 stages. With no big mountain stages left where he could potentially take time back, those mistakes (sitting up/taking initiative at the wrong time) cost him the GC win.

I would like him to go to the Tour and take a page out the book Roglic wrote. At the end of the Tour i want to see his lips big and blue. The only time he should be aggressive is when his closest rivals are isolated and he can sense weakness.

 

[Extinction]

Evenepoel was at his strongest in the first 10 days of the 2022 Vuelta. As an observer, that's my personal opinion. I'm talking stage racing, i.e. sure Liège last year was impressive but stage racing is a different type of effort. His form in the 2022 Vuelta was very good & it's the best I've ever seen him tbh.

I think in that form he can hang around with Vinge & Pog over the first part of the Tour. It depends for how long though (as we saw last year, eventually Pog exploded due to overdoing it for two weeks).

I also think he's his own worst enemy (& his fans are as well). If he goes to the Tour & starts attacking constantly, he'll burn out real fast. So when I read people saying he needs to be 'himself' & race aggressively (which is something his fans seem to want), I think that's actually guaranteed to make him blow up in July considering how fast Visma & UAE drill the bunch in the difficult stages.

The best option would be to sit on wheels. Survive as much as possible & then mug them in the finalTour ITTe the of

Evenepoel needs to lose as little time in the high mountains as possible and gain as much time in the TTs as possible. Then he should be aggressive on a rolling stage, which offers terrain to drop rivals. His whole race should be set to these parameters. So no cavalier attacking otherwise.

 

[AmRacer]

Well you haven't got it, clearly.
Furthermore, Evenepoel has also won plenty of races without perfect preparation. Just not this one, and not because he was not the strongest rider, but because he got outplayed tactically.


I think most of his fans are aware that there is a difference between riding the Tour vs Pog/Vinge and riding PN against Jorgenson/McNulty. He lost in PN because he got outplayed tactically in 3 stages. With no big mountain stages left where he could potentially take time back, those mistakes (sitting up/taking initiative at the wrong time) cost him the GC win.

I would like him to go to the Tour and take a page out the book Roglic wrote. At the end of the Tour i want to see his lips big and blue. The only time he should be aggressive is when his closest rivals are isolated and he can sense weakness.

So how do you want to compare riders?

 

[Salvarani]

Evenepoel needs to lose as little time in the high mountains as possible and gain as much time in the TTs as possible. Then he should be aggressive on a rolling stage, which offers terrain to drop rivals. His whole race should be set to these parameters. So no cavalier attacking otherwise.

Him being agressive on rolling terrain will only tire his team and himself out in the end, I am afraid.

It is exactly those type of efforts that will result in a spectacular collapse but if he has won a stage and had a few days in yellow by the time the big boys drop him, then maybe he has had his fair share of camera time to deem it a success. Maybe KOM is still up for grabs. Just like in the Vuelta. We will get em next time!

Then there is Olympics, which should really be his main target this season imo. Maybe it is, for all we know.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

So how do you want to compare riders?

Compare them as you like, just account for different conditions. Best would obviously be to look at goals they all peaked for, had a perfect preparation for, without other setbacks. But that can be difficult because there is often one rider who had a reason to perform below his full potential (Pogacar in the '23 Tour didn't have the best prep after breaking his wrist in Liège, Evenepoel getting covid in the Giro, Roglic not having a great lead-up to the '22 Vuelta etc). I don't know why stating those things (at least in this topic) always get brushed off as looking for excuses, when it's just stating obvious facts, but whatever. If people want to ignore the obvious that's up to them. Just as long as they don't act surprised when their expectations of what a rider is capable of under different circumstances turned out to be way off. In '21, Evenepoel was the laughing stock of this forum. In '22 he won Liège, San Sebastian, Vuelta and became WCC.

 

[Extinction]

Him being agressive on rolling terrain will only tire his team and himself out in the end, I am afraid.

It is exactly those type of efforts that will result in a spectacular collapse but if he has won a stage and had a few days in yellow by the time the big boys drop him, then maybe he has had his fair share of camera time to deem it a success. Maybe KOM is still up for grabs. Just like in the Vuelta. We will get em next time!

Then there is Olympics, which should really be his main target this season imo. Maybe it is, for all we know.

I was talking about targeted aggression when, by means of tactical nous, there can be something to gain; not wasting his team. I do expect Vingegaard and Pogacar to drop him on the big cols, but depending on by how much and points where maybe Evenepoel can get back something (thus my initial point) will probably determine his place on GC.

 

[AmRacer]

Compare them as you like, just account for different conditions. Best would obviously be to look at goals they all peaked for, had a perfect preparation for, without other setbacks. But that can be difficult because there is often one rider who had a reason to perform below his full potential (Pogacar in the '23 Tour didn't have the best prep after breaking his wrist in Liège, Evenepoel getting covid in the Giro, Roglic not having a great lead-up to the '22 Vuelta etc). I don't know why stating those things (at least in this topic) always get brushed off as looking for excuses, when it's just stating obvious facts, but whatever. If people want to ignore the obvious that's up to them. Just as long as they don't act surprised when their expectations of what a rider is capable of under different circumstances turned out to be way off. In '21, Evenepoel was the laughing stock of this forum. In '22 he won Liège, San Sebastian, Vuelta and became WCC.

LBL, no Poggi
Vuelta Rogla got crashed out
WCC, MvdP had his personal issues.
.
Jorgenson won fair and square.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

LBL, no Poggi
Vuelta Rogla got crashed out
WCC, MvdP had his personal issues.
.
Jorgenson won fair and square.

So excuses when Evenepoel wins, but when he loses the other was better lol.

LBL Evenepoel won fair and square
Vuelta Evenepoel won fair and square
WCC Evenepoel won fair and square
PN Jorgenson won fair and square

LBL, no Poggi
Vuelta Rogla got crashed out
WCC, MvdP had his personal issues.
PN Evenepoel had not done altitude and his DS messed up tactically

 

[Netserk]

LBL, no Poggi
Vuelta Rogla got crashed out
WCC, MvdP had his personal issues.
PN Evenepoel had not done altitude and his DS messed up tactically

One of them is not like the others.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

One of them is not like the others.

Is it the MvdP one?

 

[Brullnux]

Is it the MvdP one?

I'll hazard a guess and say it's the one where both riders actually reached the end of the race.

 

[proffate]

I was just playing with words—the kind of phone one traditional hung up (as mimed in his celebration had a rotary dial. Buy yeah, you’re right the dialed in specifically refers to a dial on equipment or weaponry to which one makes fine adjustments to get the setting just right for optimal performative.
Good thing you’re on the mixed-metaphor patrol lest folks get the wrong idea

Yes, I know about rotary phones.

Remco's instagram confirmed that the message he's sending is "dialed in", which tells me:

a) he doesn't know what "dialed in" means, because his PN performance was not dialed in
b) he doesn't know where the phrase comes from, because it's not related to phones (giving him the benefit of the doubt, this is an intentional meta-metaphor, but...)
c) he doesn't know how to translate thoughts into symbols because if you were dialed into a conference call, say, then hanging up would terminate your state of being "dialed in"

A mimed mic drop would, imHo, be a lot more appropriate, but you'd have to save it for after a dominant performance, not a consolation victory after your top rivals just annihilated their respective fields.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'll hazard a guess and say it's the one where both riders actually reached the end of the race.

Ah, then surely in order to make the victory of Jorgenson NOT won fair and square, it only takes doing this
PN - no Pog, no Vinge

Somebody go tell Jorgenson that he did not win it fair and square!

 

[Netserk]

Is it the MvdP one?

https://twitter.com/x/status/1767207372777308464

View: https://twitter.com/SpencrGreenberg/status/1767207372777308464

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

PN Evenepoel had not done altitude and his DS messed up tactically

Remco also need to take responsibility for the failed tactics, if he puts everything on the DS he will also have many issues in coming races.
What I think is specific on Remco and not on the DS is the places he chose to attack which wasn’t ideal in the last two stages and specifically the moment he let Skjelmose and McNulty go on the stage Skjelmose won.

 

[Sciatic]

Yes, I know about rotary phones.

Remco's instagram confirmed that the message he's sending is "dialed in", which tells me:

a) he doesn't know what "dialed in" means, because his PN performance was not dialed in
b) he doesn't know where the phrase comes from, because it's not related to phones (giving him the benefit of the doubt, this is an intentional meta-metaphor, but...)
c) he doesn't know how to translate thoughts into symbols because if you were dialed into a conference call, say, then hanging up would terminate your state of being "dialed in"

A mimed mic drop would, imHo, be a lot more appropriate, but you'd have to save it for after a dominant performance, not a consolation victory after your top rivals just annihilated their respective fields.

Nice analysis!

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1767207372777308464

View: https://twitter.com/SpencrGreenberg/status/1767207372777308464

Must... resist... poking... fun

 

[Netserk]

Remco also need to take responsibility for the failed tactics, if he puts everything on the DS he will also have many issues in coming races.
What I think is specific on Remco and not on the DS is the places he chose to attack which wasn’t ideal in the last two stages and specifically the moment he let Skjelmose and McNulty go on the stage Skjelmose won.

First attack on Peille was after 500 m, he stops ~300 m later. 2nd one was after ~1.3 km (of a 6.5 km climb), again he stops after a few hundred meters. Then he lets Großschartner pace for 2 km, the hardest 2 km of the climb. And then after it eases up again does he attack the third time. It was the least efficient way to drop your opponents.

 

[Oldermanish]

Ah, then surely in order to make the victory of Jorgenson NOT won fair and square, it only takes doing this
PN - no Pog, no Vinge

Somebody go tell Jorgenson that he did not win it fair and square!

No one here could do that.
Just rewatched the last 40km of the last stage. Matteo did major work to engineer the gap. When they were approaching the summit of the last climb, 12km out you can see Remco constantly looking at his computer. Likely judging how close to blowing he is and he reacts whenever Matteo comes alongside to retake the lead and control tempo. He had to work to stay on during the descent at some points :

"Evenepoel admitted that Jorgenson was the deserved winner. On Sunday the American led Evenepoel for much of the final 40km, using his local knowledge of the roads to ensure they gained time on McNulty and the other chasers."

“The two of us were the strongest men in the race this week. On Friday he made the right choice and I made the wrong one. So nothing to complain about,” Evenepoel said.

Maybe we could quit our bitchen and let the race represent a great edition of PN.

 

[red_flanders]

LBL, no Poggi
Vuelta Rogla got crashed out Crashed himself out
WCC, MvdP had his personal issues.
.
Jorgenson won fair and square.

Can't let it pass...

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

No one here could do that.
Just rewatched the last 40km of the last stage. Matteo did major work to engineer the gap. When they were approaching the summit of the last climb, 12km out you can see Remco constantly looking at his computer. Likely judging how close to blowing he is and he reacts whenever Matteo comes alongside to retake the lead and control tempo. He had to work to stay on during the descent at some points :

"Evenepoel admitted that Jorgenson was the deserved winner. On Sunday the American led Evenepoel for much of the final 40km, using his local knowledge of the roads to ensure they gained time on McNulty and the other chasers."

“The two of us were the strongest men in the race this week. On Friday he made the right choice and I made the wrong one. So nothing to complain about,” Evenepoel said.

Maybe we could quit our bitchen and let the race represent a great edition of PN.

Man, you have to read before you respond to something. As AMracer and Netserk pointed out, Jorgenson did not win deservedly, because Vinge and Pog were not here.