Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

That is simply not true. He has done nothing so far as a pro, there have been a lot of better time trialists and climbers at 19 years of age even in a past few seasons. Adrien Costa, being 18 years old, almost won an HC stage race a few years ago. Mikkel Bjerg was also destroying others in TTs. Remco has only won against juniors and finishing a minute behind out of form riders on an easy climb is not something spectacular.

I'm sorry, but ofcourse it's true. He only rode a few days as a pro yet, so obviously the only thing we can compare, are his junior results. And nobody even comes rem(c)otely close. Better TT's? I'm pretty sure that if he was able to ride the WC with the same gear as Bjerg, who is 15 months older, that he would have come very close to beating Bjerg's time at the WC ITT in Innsbruck. And where was Bjerg during the RR? How many RR did he win in the juniors category? How many times did he -being the supreme ITT specialist he is- lap the peloton? How many stage races did Bjerg win?

Costa was about to turn 19 later in the month, when he battled the Tour of Utah, against the weakest field imaginable, and lost against... Lachlan Morton. You can pick out a few outliers for these guys, none of them has dominated his peers like Evenepoel.

You'll find 18-19 year olds who are better at sprinting, who occasionally stood out uphill, who can do a hard ITT and rival the big guys on a good day. But you will not find any rider that has been so consistent and dominant in one day races, stage races (he won ALL of those he entered), uphill and in ITT's as Remco.

I'll also add, that Remco's style of riding, will make it harder for him to win a lot at an early age as a pro, unless maybe an ITT in a weaker field, because he lacks punch. He's a tempoclimber, and for his age (just compare him to Sivakov) ahead of the curve. But obviously he will not outpace top riders that are 10 years older any time soon. Vacek, who was overshadowed by Remco in the juniors ranks, is a much punchier rider, and will likely win more stages than Remco early on as a pro.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Re: Re:

You'll find 18-19 year olds who are better at sprinting, who occasionally stood out uphill, who can do a hard ITT and rival the big guys on a good day. But you will not find any rider that has been so consistent and dominant in one day races, stage races (he won ALL of those he entered), uphill and in ITT's as Remco.

That's not correct. Evenepoel's first stage race in 2018 was the Ster van Zuid-Limburg, a three-day NE event in Belgium. Evenepoel crashed hard on the penultimate stage and lost all GC chances, but he won the last stage in his usual manner (that is four minutes ahead of everyone).

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

That is simply not true. He has done nothing so far as a pro, there have been a lot of better time trialists and climbers at 19 years of age even in a past few seasons. Adrien Costa, being 18 years old, almost won an HC stage race a few years ago. Mikkel Bjerg was also destroying others in TTs. Remco has only won against juniors and finishing a minute behind out of form riders on an easy climb is not something spectacular.

I'm sorry, but ofcourse it's true. He only rode a few days as a pro yet, so obviously the only thing we can compare, are his junior results. And nobody even comes rem(c)otely close. Better TT's? I'm pretty sure that if he was able to ride the WC with the same gear as Bjerg, who is 15 months older, that he would have come very close to beating Bjerg's time at the WC ITT in Innsbruck. And where was Bjerg during the RR? How many RR did he win in the juniors category? How many times did he -being the supreme ITT specialist he is- lap the peloton? How many stage races did Bjerg win?

Costa was about to turn 19 later in the month, when he battled the Tour of Utah, against the weakest field imaginable, and lost against... Lachlan Morton. You can pick out a few outliers for these guys, none of them has dominated his peers like Evenepoel.

You'll find 18-19 year olds who are better at sprinting, who occasionally stood out uphill, who can do a hard ITT and rival the big guys on a good day. But you will not find any rider that has been so consistent and dominant in one day races, stage races (he won ALL of those he entered), uphill and in ITT's as Remco.

I'll also add, that Remco's style of riding, will make it harder for him to win a lot at an early age as a pro, unless maybe an ITT in a weaker field, because he lacks punch. He's a tempoclimber, and for his age (just compare him to Sivakov) ahead of the curve. But obviously he will not outpace top riders that are 10 years older any time soon. Vacek, who was overshadowed by Remco in the juniors ranks, is a much punchier rider, and will likely win more stages than Remco early on as a pro.

I agree 100% (even with the bracketed c in remotely).

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

According to Wilfried Peeters, the team analysis report for the TTT in the UAE tour, said Evenepoel was the strongest DQS rider in the timetrial. Morkov confirmed as much to Peeters as well. Peeters says, the main thing he still needs to learn, are tactics. The team (Brama, Peeters, Lefevre...) is pleasantly surprised by his development. Vandegoor heard that he is also impressive uphill on training.

Evenepoel crashed hard on the penultimate stage and lost all GC chances, but he won the last stage in his usual manner (that is four minutes ahead of everyone).

Right, this was the race he was actually unconscious before continuing i think? Results for this race are not listed on firstcycling or procycling.

 

[Bye Bye Bicycle]

Re: Re:

Right, this was the race he was actually unconscious before continuing i think? Results for this race are not listed on firstcycling or procycling.

Yes, he hit a house wall and was unconscious for a while.
Results: https://www.directvelo.com/epreuve/19632/ster-van-zuid-limburg-2018

 

[Koronin]

I think maybe figure out who else turned pro with a similar amount of hype (non sprinter) and a somewhat similar age for a real comparison. So not necessarily a 19-20 year maybe a 21-22-23 year and then compare results? However, that still won't mean their careers will develop similarly either.

 

[Nirvana]

Re:

Everyone here talks about Merckx but wasn't Merckx the best young rider ever, that's sure, at 19 Eddy was still an amateur and turned pro two months before 20 but he continued to ride mostly criteriums and kermesses in 1965, looking at pro races he entered Fleche but abandoned, was 10th in Scheldeprijs, 14th in Paris-Luxembourg and 29th at the World Championship.
He started to impose himself only in 1966 winning Sanremo and he was considered a sprinter at the time but in the fall he finished second at the Lombardia in a group with Gimondi, Anquetil, Poulidor showing that there was more.
The following year at 21/22 he started to regularly win or came close in big one day races (1st Sanremo again, 3rd Ronde, 1st Gent-Wevelgem, 1st Fleche, 2nd Liege, 1st World Championship) but he wasn't still dominant in stage races, he ended 9th at his first Giro, 10th in Paris-Nice, 28th in Giro di Sardegna.
Only in 1968 he won his first GT just three days before turning 23 and won also Giro di Sardegna, Volta a Catalunya and Tour de Romandie along with Roubaix.

Saronni for example was stronger in young age, at 19 he turned pro and at his first race (Trofeo Laigueglia) was 2nd behind World Champion Maertens, only some days and he won Trofeo Pantalica, first stage race (Giro di Sardegna) he ended 8th behind Martens, van Linden, Sercu, Knutsen, De Vlaemink, he changed island and won Giro di Sicilia with a stage, went to mainland and was 3rd at Tirreno behind De Vlaemink and Moser and then to Belgium to finish 2nd at Fleche behind Moser. In the second hal of the season 2nd Giro del Friuli, 1st Tre Valli Varesine, 1st Giro del Veneto, 2nd Coppa Placci, 3rd Giro del Lazio, 2nd Giro del Piemonte and at that time in this races you had to battle with riders like Moser vand De Vlaemink, he also earned the call for World Championship where he ended up 9th after working for Moser.
In 1978, at 20, he won again Trofeo Pantalica before winning Tirreno with a stage (he was 1st, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd, 4th, 4th, 4th in the stages) and finishing 2nd in Sanremo, he also won a stage of Giro di Sardegna and Giro di Campania. After winning also Tour de L'Indre et Loir and Giro di Puglia he went to Giro winning three stages (15 times in the top 10) and finishing 5th. In the second part of the season he won Coppa Agostoni along with other minor races and a bunch of high placements in summer/fall classics including 2nd in Coppa Sabatini, 2nd in Giro del Friuli, 3rd at Giro dell'Appennino, 4th at World Championships, 4th at Giro dell'Emilia.

In 1979, at only 21, he had probably his best season (PCS rank him first that year):
*2nd Trofeo Laigueglia.
*4th Ruta del Sol with a stage.
*2nd Milano-Sanremo.
*2nd Tirreno with a stage.
*2nd Fleche.
*2nd Giro di Campania.
*1st Championship of Zurich.
*1st Tour de Romandie with two stages.
*1st GP Gippigem.
*1st Giro d'Italia with three stages and point jersey
*1st GP du Midi Libre with two stages.
*1st GP Camaiore.
*1st Tre Valli Varesine.
*Two stages of Volta a Catalunya.
*2nd Paris-Tours.
*1st Trofeo Baracchi.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re:

Pro wins count so far: Evenpoel 0 - 1 Ghirmay

Pro wins count so far: Evenepoel 0 - 2 Ghirmay

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Pro wins count so far: Evenpoel 0 - 1 Ghirmay

Pro wins count so far: Evenepoel 0 - 2 Ghirmay

Who would have thought, a guy that can sprint, would win more races than a guy that wants to be a GC contender. Especially, considering the former is racing agains weak-ass opposition, in a peloton of respectively 80 riders (TAB) and 63 riders (TOR), and the latter is racing against actual world class opposition. Even in San Juan, there was more opposition than in both Ghirmay's stage races combined.

But yes, i'm sure it was mean to be funny. Let's see:
Contador pro wins: 68 - André Greipel pro wins: 156
:lol:

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Pro wins count so far: Evenpoel 0 - 1 Ghirmay

Pro wins count so far: Evenepoel 0 - 2 Ghirmay

Who would have thought, a guy that can sprint, would win more races than a guy that wants to be a GC contender. Especially, considering the former is racing agains weak-ass opposition, in a peloton of respectively 80 riders (TAB) and 63 riders (TOR), and the latter is racing against actual world class opposition. Even in San Juan, there was more opposition than in both Ghirmay's stage races combined.

But yes, i'm sure it was mean to be funny. Let's see:
Contador pro wins: 68 - André Greipel pro wins: 156

Current Pro riders with over 100 pro wins: Greipel, Cavendish, Valverde, Sagan. The only not actual sprinter in that group still has a good sprint and at one time was thought to be a sprinter. So a sprinter having more wins as a rookie than a GC hopeful is what should be happening.

 

[Zinoviev Letter]

Re: Re:

Pro wins count so far: Evenpoel 0 - 1 Ghirmay

Pro wins count so far: Evenepoel 0 - 2 Ghirmay

Who would have thought, a guy that can sprint, would win more races than a guy that wants to be a GC contender. Especially, considering the former is racing agains weak-ass opposition, in a peloton of respectively 80 riders (TAB) and 63 riders (TOR), and the latter is racing against actual world class opposition. Even in San Juan, there was more opposition than in both Ghirmay's stage races combined.

But yes, i'm sure it was mean to be funny. Let's see:
Contador pro wins: 68 - André Greipel pro wins: 156
:lol:

Of course it’s meant to be funny. The best junior of recent decades just happens to move out of the junior ranks at the same time as a guy who immediately gets startling results while everyone is watching Remco. And that guy is one of the few kids who actually beat Evenepoel even once as a junior, albeit by mugging him after sitting on. It’s like as if a script writer was establishing a rival.

Yes, even if both go on to top level careers (far from guaranteed), they won’t actually end up as direct opponents very often. As you note, Evenepoel is a GC type, while Ghirmay seems like he is more a sprinter than anything else. It just amuses me that the best very early results of an 18 year old we’ve seen in a long time come from someone other than the guy who is obviously the best age group rider anyone here can remember.

 

[Tim Booth]

What Evenepoel is slightly less looking forward to is the media attention that awaits him at the start this afternoon. [Nokere Koerse]
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2GHjjOWsAApl8-.jpg:large
"It's a long way, isn't it," he sighs. “Heavily exaggerated. I can't tell much more about that. I will remain calm, but I must admit that I would be more comfortable if I could prepare myself for that competition without all the attention. Sometimes it bothers me, yes. I know your journalists do your job too. And of course I will speak to you out of respect. But I sometimes read things about me, of which I wonder: was that really supposed to be in the newspaper?”
“Actually, I'm currently getting the attention that my team mates deserve,” continues Evenepoel. “Julian Alaphilippe, for example, already has six victories in his pocket. He deserves that attention much more. I myself have not done anything as a pro. I am only nineteen and still fully engaged in a learning process."

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

What Evenepoel is slightly less looking forward to is the media attention that awaits him at the start this afternoon. [Nokere Koerse]
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/D2GHjjOWsAApl8-.jpg:large
"It's a long way, isn't it," he sighs. “Heavily exaggerated. I can't tell much more about that. I will remain calm, but I must admit that I would be more comfortable if I could prepare myself for that competition without all the attention. Sometimes it bothers me, yes. I know your journalists do your job too. And of course I will speak to you out of respect. But I sometimes read things about me, of which I wonder: was that really supposed to be in the newspaper?”
“Actually, I'm currently getting the attention that my team mates deserve,” continues Evenepoel. “Julian Alaphilippe, for example, already has six victories in his pocket. He deserves that attention much more. I myself have not done anything as a pro. I am only nineteen and still fully engaged in a learning process."

Last week there was a quote from Valverde, who also spoke off his insane potential, but was very critical of the media, concerning Evenepoel.

https://www.mundodeportivo.com/ciclismo/20190314/461027116461/valverde-estan-endiosando-demasiado-a-remco-evenepoel.html

In the meanwhile, he lost a former teammate, Stef Loos, in a race accident (got run over by a minivan, see "general news thread") and his former coach isn't entirely happy with the fact that DQS hasn't contacted him since he has so much information. He also questions some decisions (his gear, his training...).

https://www.indeleiderstrui.nl/nieuws/algemeen-nieuws/220077/jeugdtrainer-evenepoel-ik-begrijp-niet-dat-lefevere-mij-nog-niet-belde

 

[Juan Pelota]

Is he no longer racing Catalunya?

His schedule on procyclingstats now lists his next event as the Tour of Turkey on 4.16

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

Is he no longer racing Catalunya?

His schedule on procyclingstats now lists his next event as the Tour of Turkey on 4.16

That's correct. There was an update of his schedule in January or February. Turkey and Romandie.

 

[Koronin]

Valverde is right, but unfortunately Evenepoel is going to have to learn how to navigate the media at a very young age. The media isn't going to back off. They love to push the next big athlete to the point they can turn off a lot of fans to that athlete.

 

[DNP-Old]

He's too fat according to Don Pat, lol.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re:

He's too fat according to Don Pat, lol.

Well... to be honest, i've stated plenty of times in this topic, that i thought he could stand to lose a few kg's as well. According to PL, he was 4kg heavier at UAE than he was during the WC in Innsbruck.

Maybe they should listen to what his former trainer said. He said Remco should keep with his former training schedule of training twice per day. Apparently, at DQS, he doesn't do that anymore.

The real test is Romandie. Two TT and two MTF.

 

[Akuryo]

Wouldn't be the first time they fcked up a climbing talent. I'm still baffled how well Enric Mas does given the circumstances in that team. Its not only the talent that you need but also the correct environment to reach your full potential. So far Mas has been the odd one out. For some reason he seems to defeat the odds of developing young climbing ability at DQT. It remains to be seen if Evenepoel will follow his footsteps or if Mas is that rare case where they did not ruin a potentially great rider. Remember Kasheshkin? They actually made him ride the full cobbled calender. José Antonio Pecharromán? Came as a talented climbing prospect, failed utterly while being with Quickstep for 2 years. Ivan Santaromita won a few races AFTER he left the team. In his 3 years in Belgium he did pretty much nothing. Hubert Schwab was not developed into anything. Seeldryers got one 10th place in the Giro ...
Other than one stage at the Tour de Suisse Alessandro Proni did not evolve to much of anything. Grabovskyy came as a huge talent and yet did not deliver for the team. Davide Malacarne was never more than average. Okay, I'll give them Cataldo even though he had his first 2 years at Liquigas. But he was also still young and had a decent career for and after Quickstep. At least not a total failure like the rest. A lot of people had high hopes for Carlos Verona yet he just a domestique most of the time. He's still young so the jury is not out yet but I dont think he'll ever become a GT contender. And then there is De Plus who at least shows potential but already left the team early.

So. Since 2003 (when they were no longer Mapei but Quickstep) they developed ONE! good climber in Enric Mas who has now shown on multiple occasions that he can hang with the best and already finished a Grand Tour on the podium. In 15+ years they got it right one time. Even though they are known for their classics quad, that is a bad team for climbers. Like really, really bad. Lets not get clouded by Uran, Dan Martin, etc. I am only talking about self developed guys. And Mas is the only exception in more than 15 years. I hate to say it but the odds are against Evenepoel with Quickstep. Mas seems to be that one in a million where even Lefevere could not fck it up no matter how hard he tried.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

In the case of De Plus, he lost an entire year rehabillitating after his crash and getting hit by a truck during training. He's still only 23 and already showed great things while at DQS (very good Giro when he was 21, somewhat decent GC in California considering he had not raced for a year). Pretty good ITT at the WC two years ago.

Also not every prospect turns into a top tier pro. Regardless of which team they ride for. It just so happens QS hasn't had nearly as many GC prospects as the other teams. I don't mean to dismiss your reasoning, but you have to consider the context.

 

[Akuryo]

Re:

In the case of De Plus, he lost an entire year rehabillitating after his crash and getting hit by a truck during training. He's still only 23 and already showed great things while at DQS (very good Giro when he was 21, somewhat decent GC in California considering he had not raced for a year). Pretty good ITT at the WC two years ago.

Also not every prospect turns into a top tier pro. Regardless of which team they ride for. It just so happens QS hasn't had nearly as many GC prospects as the other teams. I don't mean to dismiss your reasoning, but you have to consider the context.

Yeah of course one has to consider the amount of climbers they actually tried out but still. The success rate is still very low.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

From the same interview where he says Remco is "too fat" atm (4 kg heavier than during the WC), Lefevre also says, that during the TTT in the UAE tour, riders were scheduled to take 15 second turns. If they wanted, they could do longer pulls, but on the condition they didn't let the tempo drop. So everybody did 15 second pulls, except Remco. He did 30 seconds.

He was also the only one that could follow Alaphilippe uphill in training. Lefevre is sure Remco was disappointed after EAU because he could have finished higher (top 5) if he wasn't 4kg too heavy, eventhough Evenepoel claims he wasn't disappointed.

It also seems Evenepoel wasn't really a fan of riding Nokere and Handzame, but De Cauwer thinks these are valuable experiences for him.

He's working hard to get ready for Romandie, his first real test. (Normally he'll ride the Presidential Tour of Turkey right before but i think there is only one stage where you could really make a gap for GC, and that's on the Kartepe climb, 16km at +/- 8% slope).

 

[Jancouver]

Re:

From the same interview where he says Remco is "too fat" atm (4 kg heavier than during the WC), Lefevre also says, that during the TTT in the UAE tour, riders were scheduled to take 15 second turns. If they wanted, they could do longer pulls, but on the condition they didn't let the tempo drop. So everybody did 15 second pulls, except Remco. He did 30 seconds.

He was also the only one that could follow Alaphilippe uphill in training. Lefevre is sure Remco was disappointed after EAU because he could have finished higher (top 5) if he wasn't 4kg too heavy, eventhough Evenepoel claims he wasn't disappointed.

It also seems Evenepoel wasn't really a fan of riding Nokere and Handzame, but De Cauwer thinks these are valuable experiences for him.

He's working hard to get ready for Romandie, his first real test. (Normally he'll ride the Presidential Tour of Turkey right before but i think there is only one stage where you could really make a gap for GC, and that's on the Kartepe climb, 16km at +/- 8% slope).

So young and already 4kg overweight?

Perhaps, Remco is the new Betancur ... LOL

Well, he has not shown much yet, but at least, we have a new "wasted talent" name to talk about.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Re: Re:

Well, he has not shown much yet, but at least, we have a new "wasted talent" name to talk about.

:lol:

 

[ppanther92]

Re: Re:

Well, he has not shown much yet, but at least, we have a new "wasted talent" name to talk about.

This guy only recently turned 19, the biggest GT talent in recent history (or at least in young age), Andy Schleck, had his first big showing at the age of 21 (2nd at the Giro). Even Bernal was already very close to 21 the first time he showed himself in the front of a WT race (13th at Il Lomardia).

So give him at least two years, before talking about "wasted talent"...