Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Remco will finish 9th at 11 minutes out in his first Giro.

That would be great, actually.

I have to say the comparison with Cancellara hadn’t manifested in my tiny brain. I’d actually liken him to Froome, in that he can TT, he can put in a burst and ride people off his wheel, he clearly has huge aerobic capacity and of course he has little explosiveness. Froome struggled most on shorter, steeper ramps which may be where Remco struggles too.

Actually i've compared him to Cancellara as well in the past, but with the notion that he weighs probably 20 kilo less. What would happen when a worldclass ITT'er loses weight comparable to that of a climber? Haven't we seen any such guy win the TDF recently, and another the Giro? With that notion that most of them lose a bit of ITT top end speed in order to be able to climb better. But Remco already is a lightweight and already is an ITT phenomenon. So i do find Lequack's post a bit strange. Especially since given his weight, he should be in fact less of a classics rider.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

I have to say the comparison with Cancellara hadn’t manifested in my tiny brain. I’d actually liken him to Froome, in that he can TT, he can put in a burst and ride people off his wheel, he clearly has huge aerobic capacity and of course he has little explosiveness. Froome struggled most on shorter, steeper ramps which may be where Remco struggles too.

When has Froome ever struggled on shorter ramps when he was on form? Dawg finished second on the Mur de Huy in the 2015 Tour

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RWVCs5LB9Y


from 29:00 onwards

Purito had to dig pretty deep to hold him off.


or here :

Vuelta a España 2016 Stage 3 results

Alexandre Geniez is the winner of Vuelta a España 2016 Stage 3, before Rubén Fernández and Alejandro Valverde. Rubén Fernández was leader in GC.

www.procyclingstats.com

on a steep 1.8km climb where he finished with Valverde and Chaves

Froome is very explosive for a GC specialist, Evenepoel hasn't been up until now. I haven't seen any Froome-style accelerations from him, at least.

 

[Joelsim]

There have been several stages where he struggled.

This one for instance. In most instances, finishing on a steep climb he always lacked against the winners, which is why he’s never been a one-day racer and why he was often dropped before getting into his rhythm and motoring back into contention.

View: https://youtu.be/1pr7lwjgSXA

With regard to Froome-style accelerations, Remco did several last year.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

There have been several stages where he struggled.

This one for instance.

View: https://youtu.be/1pr7lwjgSXA

Froome struggles when he has a bad day or doesn't have great form, like anyone else. Nothing to do with a supposed lack of explosiveness on his part, as he has shown on plenty of occasions that he is in fact explosive. You can't just ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

 

[Joelsim]

Froome struggles when he has a bad day or doesn't have great form, like anyone else. Nothing to do with a supposed lack of explosiveness on his part, as he has shown on plenty of occasions that he is in fact explosive. You can't just ignore all the evidence to the contrary.

We'll have to agree to disagree. It's been rare that he's not come last out of the group he's been in at the end of the stage. I know this as he was in my Fantasy Team for 3 years and it used to frustrate me regularly. The Mur finish was an exception. Similar to Lopez in that respect.

 

[Red Rick]

Lots of riders tend to be called "explosive" or not based on if they like changes of pace during a long climb. This is very often confused with punch or sprinting ability. Mur de Huy is deffo on the short side but Froome deffo loves his 1 minute max efforts at the end of a climb if he's in good shape, while also not having a lousy sprint or anything.

But yeah I don't think Evenepoel is like Canc at all simply because Canc was actually very explosive himself. He's much more like a featherweight Tony Martin

 

[Joelsim]

Lots of riders tend to be called "explosive" or not based on if they like changes of pace during a long climb. This is very often confused with punch or sprinting ability. Mur de Huy is deffo on the short side but Froome deffo loves his 1 minute max efforts at the end of a climb if he's in good shape, while also not having a lousy sprint or anything.

But yeah I don't think Evenepoel is like Canc at all simply because Canc was actually very explosive himself. He's much more like a featherweight Tony Martin

I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure I've ever seen Froome being punchy and beating the others at the end of a stage. Clearly a few km out he can do, but the last km, never.

 

[Red Rick]

I agree with most of this, but I'm not sure I've ever seen Froome being punchy and beating the others at the end of a stage. Clearly a few km out he can do, but the last km, never.

But he rarely loses much time there either, and is almost always in the first group. He doesn't really do great in puncheur finishes but it's not really a liability. 5 minute climbs he was already world class if it was decently steep

 

[Joelsim]

But he rarely loses much time there either, and is almost always in the first group. He doesn't really do great in puncheur finishes but it's not really a liability. 5 minute climbs he was already world class if it was decently steep

Agree fully. Which is why I suggested Remco could be similar. He's unlikely to win these types of stages, but I'll bet he can keep in touch.

Unless of course he does a Froome and rides away with 2km to go.

 

[GuntherL]

Remco reminds me most of Miguel Indurain. Blessed with a great time trial and killing the opposition uphill by maintaining a high pace for a long time.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

The climb had like 8% ramps. Cooperation in the front group wasn't stellar before Evenepoel and Sevilla joined.

He didn't close down the gap all by himself either. Sevilla and more importantly Paredes went balls out.

Sevilla wasn't dropped for good, either. I don't buy the the climb was too easy excuse as plenty of other riders didn't manage to hang on. There was just not that much of a difference between Evenepoel and Sevilla on the climb.

So, looking at the footage again (i'm sorry to bring this up again), it's clear that the cooperation in the front peloton between the domestiques and the motorcycles was actually excellent. Please look at this. Furthermore it is also clear from watching the footage again, that not only do Evenepoel and Serry have to battle against motorcycles in the front peloton, but also that Evenepoel has been working for literally miles and miles, before Sevilla finally comes to the front (Evenepoel starts working around 38k from the finish, Sevilla at 26k from the finish only starts to move up, and only starts helping even later around 22k). So it isn't that surprising that Evenepoel had to dig a lot deeper than not only McNulty and G. Martin in the first peloton, but also a lot more than Sevilla. Hence him not completely obliterating the opposition on the climb.

When i watched the stage live the first time, i was mainly frustrated with him ending up in the second peloton. Watching it again now, it's almost a miracle he managed to bridge and still have enough left in the tank to follow the other guys on the climb at all.

 

[Rik Van Looy]

So, looking at the footage again (i'm sorry to bring this up again), it's clear that the cooperation in the front peloton between the domestiques and the motorcycles was actually excellent. Please look at this. Furthermore it is also clear from watching the footage again, that not only do Evenepoel and Serry have to battle against motorcycles in the front peloton, but also that Evenepoel has been working for literally miles and miles, before Sevilla finally comes to the front (Evenepoel starts working around 38k from the finish, Sevilla at 26k from the finish only starts to move up, and only starts helping even later around 22k). So it isn't that surprising that Evenepoel had to dig a lot deeper than not only McNulty and G. Martin in the first peloton, but also a lot more than Sevilla. Hence him not completely obliterating the opposition on the climb.

When i watched the stage live the first time, i was mainly frustrated with him ending up in the second peloton. Watching it again now, it's almost a miracle he managed to bridge and still have enough left in the tank to follow the other guys on the climb at all.

That is impressive what you did. I think you are correct.

I was also surprised that Remco did not win the stage, but in fact Remco showed strength, stamina and determination. He could have let go, but he kept fighting. We will see what he will do during the next Tours. I hope that people like Merckx, Hinault, Casani, Boonen, Museeuw, Bogdar, Toni Martin, Ph. Gilbert, Contador, De Vlaeminck, .... are correct in their assessment . Bogdar (winner of an individual tt at the Tour de France) was so impressed by Remco after his individual TT that he stated that Remco will win the Tour de France in 2022. Lefevre claimed that Remco is probably the most talented cyclist with whom he worked, which is saying a lot (it's not as if he has never been the boss of excellent cyclists).

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

So, looking at the footage again (i'm sorry to bring this up again), it's clear that the cooperation in the front peloton between the domestiques and the motorcycles was actually excellent. Please look at this. Furthermore it is also clear from watching the footage again, that not only do Evenepoel and Serry have to battle against motorcycles in the front peloton, but also that Evenepoel has been working for literally miles and miles, before Sevilla finally comes to the front (Evenepoel starts working around 38k from the finish, Sevilla at 26k from the finish only starts to move up, and only starts helping even later around 22k). So it isn't that surprising that Evenepoel had to dig a lot deeper than not only McNulty and G. Martin in the first peloton, but also a lot more than Sevilla. Hence him not completely obliterating the opposition on the climb.

When i watched the stage live the first time, i was mainly frustrated with him ending up in the second peloton. Watching it again now, it's almost a miracle he managed to bridge and still have enough left in the tank to follow the other guys on the climb at all.

You have to account for Sevilla's limitations, though, IMO. He's obviously no Evenepoel on the flat, but he's no McNulty either. To me it looked like Sevilla was suffering in that echelon, so I assumed (wrongly) that he would have been distanced on the climb by quite a bit (and not just by Evenepoel, either)

Cooperation in the first echelon was great. On the climb, though, the Florez, Martin and McNulty group could have gone faster, IMO. (and no, I don't think Martin an McNulty would have finished anywhere near Evenepoel or Sevilla, if not for the echelons. )

 

[F_Cance]

Not again this moto helped the other group discussion. This must be the third time you are saying the motos worked against Evenepoel (in general, not in San Juan). You are always the first to talk about how this is to his disadvantage, but when he was leading alone and got help from motos, you always pretend that nothing happened. At least be consistent.

 

[Red Rick]

Not again this moto helped the other group discussion. This must be the third time you are saying the motos worked against Evenepoel (in general, not in San Juan). You are always the first to talk about how this is to his disadvantage, but when he was leading alone and got help from motos, you always pretend that nothing happened. At least be consistent.

It was really unfair though. The first group only had a motor in front of them. The second group had Evenepoel.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Not again this moto helped the other group discussion. This must be the third time you are saying the motos worked against Evenepoel (in general, not in San Juan). You are always the first to talk about how this is to his disadvantage, but when he was leading alone and got help from motos, you always pretend that nothing happened. At least be consistent.

You were wrong then. You are wrong now.

Feel free to post proof of where and how he was towed for dozens of miles (and the opposition wasn't). If you think what happened in San Juan and in Germany was "ok", that's good for you, you probably also think that a referee making blatant mistakes in football is "ok" and "part of the game". But *** like this (and especially in San Juan where it could have decided the General Classification) is not ok. Roughly 13 km with a fierce wind at speeds up to 70km/h gives a huge advantage. The fact that you even want to argue about this speaks volumes.

 

[Rik Van Looy]

You were wrong then. You are wrong now.

Feel free to post proof of where and how he was towed for dozens of miles (and the opposition wasn't). If you think what happened in San Juan and in Germany was "ok", that's good for you, you probably also think that a referee making blatant mistakes in football is "ok" and "part of the game". But *** like this (and especially in San Juan where it could have decided the General Classification) is not ok. Roughly 13 km with a fierce wind at speeds up to 70km/h gives a huge advantage. The fact that you even want to argue about this speaks volumes.

Remco harped on several times about the "motor stuff in Germany". At first Remco had the impression that it was the head wind that made him lose a big lead, but then the media showed him what really happened and he became angry. Not Gerraint Thomas or Nibali made the difference, but the "motor stuff". BTW : Nibali has already shown that he has no qualms trying to do his utmost to ensure that Remco does not win. I already saw this 3 times. I don't know why he does this, but it's quite striking.

 

[Red Rick]

Yeah preventing Evenepoel from winning a stage in German micky mouse race>Giro GC>Lombardia>Tour stages for Nibbles 2019 objectives.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Remco harped on several times about the "motor stuff in Germany". At first Remco had the impression that it was the head wind that made him lose a big lead, but then the media showed him what really happened and he became angry. Not Gerraint Thomas or Nibali made the difference, but the "motor stuff". BTW : Nibali has already shown that he has no qualms trying to do his utmost to ensure that Remco does not win. I already saw this 3 times. I don't know why he does this, but it's quite striking.

In Germany, it were colleagues who were in the peloton who told him afterwards. I think he mentioned it in the Sporza Jaaroverzicht.

 

[roundabout]

So, looking at the footage again (i'm sorry to bring this up again), it's clear that the cooperation in the front peloton between the domestiques and the motorcycles was actually excellent. Please look at this. Furthermore it is also clear from watching the footage again, that not only do Evenepoel and Serry have to battle against motorcycles in the front peloton, but also that Evenepoel has been working for literally miles and miles, before Sevilla finally comes to the front (Evenepoel starts working around 38k from the finish, Sevilla at 26k from the finish only starts to move up, and only starts helping even later around 22k). So it isn't that surprising that Evenepoel had to dig a lot deeper than not only McNulty and G. Martin in the first peloton, but also a lot more than Sevilla. Hence him not completely obliterating the opposition on the climb.

When i watched the stage live the first time, i was mainly frustrated with him ending up in the second peloton. Watching it again now, it's almost a miracle he managed to bridge and still have enough left in the tank to follow the other guys on the climb at all.

I rewatched the stage as well, and regardless of when Sevilla started working he and Paredes helped a lot. And Evenepoel working for miles and miles is a bit of an exaggeration as he had more than Serry with him helping when he first started working according to you. Let's leave it at that.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I rewatched the stage as well, and regardless of when Sevilla started working he and Paredes helped a lot. And Evenepoel working for miles and miles is a bit of an exaggeration as he had more than Serry with him helping when he first started working according to you. Let's leave it at that.

Starting +/-38k from the finish, Evenepoel is working together with Serry. Van Lerberghe takes some turns after a few miles and drops back before you know it. Same with Stybar who is initially in the first peloton, drops back to help a bit, but this doesn't last long. I think he is on camera once, and the next cut, he's gone for good. The hard raced part on the flat, where the front peloton is being paced by the motors, neither Paredes nor Sevilla helped at all. Once the climb starts, it is mainly Paredes together with Evenepoel (Serry is gone by then) who is doing the work. They film Sevilla, as if he's doing some pulls, but right before the image cuts away, you can see at least two other riders in front of him. Regardless of that anecdotal evidence, Sevilla doesn't come to the front to take pulls well after 15k since the peloton tore. In fact, at 26.5k from the finish (when Evenepoel is already taking pulls for 12k) Sevilla is still at the back of the group. Once the climb starts, it is Paredes who does most of the work. In order of total workload Evenepoel clearly did the most work, followed closely by Paredes & Serry, and at quite some distance, Sevilla.

So yeah, from 38k to 20k is miles and miles, especially in these circumstances. It's Evenepoel with Serry vs +/-10 guys of UAE, Movistar & Bohra behind 3 motorbikes. My main issue is with the motorbikes which makes a huge difference at high speeds. Maybe check the other topic and some of the explanation by experts about how much one can benefit from it. In a matter of +/-10-15k, the breakaway which had a 5+ minute lead on the peloton, are caught by the motorpaced peloton. Maybe you think this is normal, but i don't.

EDIT: checked again. The motorpaced peloton closes a gap of 5m25s in 16 kilometers on the breakaway, prior to the actual climb, prior to Sevilla and Paredes helping out. My point being, that this is what he was up against, with minimal support at the time. I'm sure you are aware, that the normal expectations are, that a peloton can gain 1 minute every 10k on a breakaway. Whether you believe the motorpacing was real or not (which it certainly was), it doesn't change the fact that he had to go much deeper than anyone else, over the course of the final 40k of the stage. Had he and Serry kept the same pace as the break, he would have lost 6 minutes or more before the climb even started. Downplaying his achievement is really not necessary.

 

[memyselfandI]

The higher treshold power one has, more one benefits even short periods of pace, recovery starts from higher level.

But pedal least, then pedal hardest.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

It was really unfair though. The first group only had a motor in front of them. The second group had Evenepoel.

click

 

[Andre]

I came up with my numbers by looking at Eddy Merckx first Giro: he finished 9th at 11 minutes and a few seconds back; although I am hoping that Remco does better.

 

[Rik Van Looy]

I came up with my numbers by looking at Eddy Merckx first Giro: he finished 9th at 11 minutes and a few seconds back; although I am hoping that Remco does better.

Eddy became ill in that Giro, but he already showed his stuff by winning 2 stages (one was a rather difficult mountain stage). Nonetheless Eddy was very disappointed with his result. Journalists were trying to comfort him : Eddy, you will one day win a GT. A year later Eddy destroyed everybody in the Giro. Eddy was already a champion when he started winning GT's. His 1969 win of the Tour de France is still the stuff of legends. He did what he wanted in that edition. The Eddy of the 1968 Giro and the 1969 Tour de France was the best GT cyclist of all time. Nobody in history would have beaten him : not Coppi, not Hinault, ...