Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

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Again, the Lemond thing was a response to an earlier question about general form.
Maybe I was misinformed about the actual strategy but read in several pre-race analyses that Wout was the protected rider, the other Belgians were in to control the interim action. I didn't watch Belgian TV, obviously. As for the after the fact suggestion by Remco claiming the form to win...did he not actually state that? That's not realistic or particularly professional to announce via the media. I'd suggest again that the lack of the customary radio coms contributed to the confusion and the polemics afterward. That said; I would more likely trust what Wout had to say. He's been a stand-up teammate and performer for some time and generally owns up to any lack of performance on his part.
You brought up the "Lemond thing" without any relevent context, as general form doesn't matter when you have only one card to play. You play it and that is that. By contrast, when you have more than one card to play poker dictates that you hedge your bets and adjust tactics as the game evolves. But Belgium came to the table with only a one card trick. Remco comported himself accordingly and when the Wout card proved fallimentary, owing to bad legs, Belgium was left with all its chips on the table for France to collect. This has been rehashed over and over again. Given the result, however, and how he was deployed by the team why should Remco not state that he had the legs to win? He was after all merely used as a pawn when he should have merited knight status. Besides is Remco stating thusly any less professional than being taken for a ride by Wout during the race? Given that Belgium came away with nothing by placing as it were all its eggs in one basket with Wout, doesn't Remco, if he may, at least have the right to be a bit pissed off?

And I don't trust what Wout had to say, from the moment he failed to communicate to the team that he did not have stellar legs until it was too late. Customary race radios would not have changed this.

Wout as a standup teammate is highly debatable, as he always seems to ride for himself, except when constrained to be a mountain domestique. Whereas he clearly hasn't owned up to his lack of perfomance at the World's by only seeking a scapegoat in Remco. Every protagonist evidently needs an antihero for the plot.
 
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You brought up the "Lemond thing" without any relevent context, as general form doesn't matter when you have only one card to play. You play it and that is that. By contrast, when you have more than one card to play poker dictates that you hedge your bets and adjust tactics as the game evolves. But Belgium came to the table with only a one card trick. Remco comported himself accordingly and when the Wout card proved fallimentary, owing to bad legs, Belgium was left with all its chips on the table for France to collect. This has been rehashed over and over again. Given the result, however, and how he was deployed by the team why should Remco not state that he had the legs to win? He was after all merely used as a pawn when he should have merited knight status. Besides is Remco stating thusly any less professional than being taken for a ride by Wout during the race? Given that Belgium came away with nothing by placing as it were all its eggs in one basket with Wout, doesn't Remco, if he may, at least have the right to be a bit pissed off?

And I don't trust what Wout had to say, from the moment he failed to communicate to the team that he did not have stellar legs until it was too late. Customary race radios would not have changed this.

Wout as a standup teammate is highly debatable, as he always seems to ride for himself, except when constrained to be a mountain domestique. Whereas he clearly hasn't owned up to his lack of perfomance at the World's by only seeking a scapegoat in Remco. Every protagonist evidently needs an antihero for the plot.
I love the very informed gamer theory analogy but cycling is more than that. Have you or anyone you know directly ever been in a 5 hour race and felt like quitting, then better, then worse and still won?
By the way...Wout could tell the closest rider to him that he's not feeling great. Who else would hear without radios? Are you sure that feeling got transmitted or was actually spoken?
Remco can second guess everyone he wants. He has to be honest to himself, though and worry less about the Twits on social media.
 
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The truth is that most of the Belgian riders were not good enough to respond to brisk accelerations, as we could see during the first part of the race and specially during the attack of Ala, still in the middle part of the course (Flandrien stretch). Benoot, Teuns and even Lampaert were simply left behind on an ordinary Flemish hill, not only by Ala, but by more of the half of the remaining peloton. Also Campenaerts, but to a lesser extent. But Campenaerts and Declercq did there job before, Stuyven did his job in the final. In contrast to Benoot, Teuns, Lampaert and Van Aert who were below level. And Evenepoel...... ? He did his job and was way the best Belgian rider. And probably the second best of the world that day.
If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader, and if he had been allowed to save his strength until the final, he could either have supported Van Aert in the final (provided Van Aert had good legs) or take his chance himself.
Conclusion : both the national coach and Van Aert made serious errors of judgment
In my view, Remco robbed half of the team of their duties / moment of glory: Remco effectively determined the race between km 180 and km 125, and further on between km 90 and km 25.
The Belgian team had other guys for that, but with Remco on the front, they had to stay in place and couldn't even show if they had legs. You saw e.g. Lampaert doing his job by pulling hard in the local rounds before the 2nd Flandrien circuit (the moment in the race they got rid of Ewan and some other sprinters). At that moment, Teuns indicated that they were drilling it too hard on the front. Lots of things went wrong in the Belgian team, but if you blame riders for not having legs, you can as well blame riders who had excellent legs and wasted all that energy for unnecessary moves...

You say it very well: "If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader..."
Think about it: "If Evenepoel rode the race as a reserve leader..." a role that was complementary to his job before the start: covering dangerous moves. But Remco himself choose not only to to his job, but he also choose to do all kinds of jobs he wasn't supposed to do.
 
I love the very informed gamer theory analogy but cycling is more than that. Have you or anyone you know directly ever been in a 5 hour race and felt like quitting, then better, then worse and still won?
By the way...Wout could tell the closest rider to him that he's not feeling great. Who else would hear without radios? Are you sure that feeling got transmitted or was actually spoken?
Remco can second guess everyone he wants. He has to be honest to himself, though and worry less about the Twits on social media.
Actually, yes, I've been in a 5 hour race, even been in a 6.5 hour race, but never felt like quiting. Unfortunately winning wasn't in the cards (top 5-10 though, yes). And yes there were times on the course when the legs were nailed to the cross, then got much better deep into the race. But the situation at the World Tour level is a totally different story.

In today's cycling it's a romantic idea that in a grueling 20 k race a team leader struggling with bad legs, somehow musters the strength to prevail in the end. For one thing, the races are much more controlled by the teams nowadays , which have riders specifically designated for that task, and for another at World Tour level the difference between being super and mehish can be as little as 1% or even less. Consequently, a rider who is feeling a bit off has little chance of winning, when another team successfully plays out its strategy and has a leader running on all cylinders.

It thus becomes imperative that a rider communicates his actual condition to the team during the race. Alternative plans can then be contemplated and deployed if necessary (provided they exist, which didn't seem to be the case with Belgium at this World's). How many times have we heard of a captain who told the team he did not have the legs to win, then one of his deputies was allowed a chance and won or came close to winning?

This World's was complicated to be sure, with a course that wasn't altimetrically speaking very selective, but nervous wise and with the massive crowds quite demanding and stressful. The way it was raced so hard from fairly early on, moreover, would have given the legs clear signs of how they were feeling, with ample time to communicate that to the team. The biggest problem for Belgium was having exclusively an all-in plan for Wout. But he must have known he didn't have the best legs long before the last 50 k when he still had Remco pull the break at top spead. He could have, and should have, told Evenepoel to stop working. Race radios were not necessary for this.

How exactly was Remco second guessing? Clearly Wout didn't have the legs to win. So nothing to second guess about there. Whereas with the possible exception of Styuvens, Remco had the best legs on the team and possibly could have won. Nothing to second guess about there either.

And after the debacle, given the way he was publically criticized before the race firstly and secondly how he was allotted to play remissive role, one might concede the young man a bit of venting on social media. What's fair is fair.
 
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In my view, Remco robbed half of the team of their duties / moment of glory: Remco effectively determined the race between km 180 and km 125, and further on between km 90 and km 25.
The Belgian team had other guys for that, but with Remco on the front, they had to stay in place and couldn't even show if they had legs. You saw e.g. Lampaert doing his job by pulling hard in the local rounds before the 2nd Flandrien circuit (the moment in the race they got rid of Ewan and some other sprinters). At that moment, Teuns indicated that they were drilling it too hard on the front. Lots of things went wrong in the Belgian team, but if you blame riders for not having legs, you can as well blame riders who had excellent legs and wasted all that energy for unnecessary moves...

You say it very well: "If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader..."
Think about it: "If Evenepoel rode the race as a reserve leader..." a role that was complementary to his job before the start: covering dangerous moves. But Remco himself choose not only to to his job, but he also choose to do all kinds of jobs he wasn't supposed to do.
Oh I think it's pretty clear that when Remco was deployed to go with the early moves and again from 50k out he rode full gas because he was told by the Belgian DS that, under no circumstances, would he be allowed to ride for the win at the end. That was Wout's exclusive privilege. So from Remco's point of view, what good would it have been not to empty himself in the service of Wout? Anyway Wout was just going to destroy everyone, right? Then Wout's legs failed himself and all Belgium witht them. But that's not Remco's fault in the least. That's my main beef with the criticism Evenepoel has gotten. The only reason Belgium failed was not because of how Remco rode, given the role he was assigned, but because Wout failed to deliver in the end.
 
Oh I think it's pretty clear that when Remco was deployed to go with the early moves and again from 50k out he rode full gas because he was told by the Belgian DS that, under no circumstances, would he be allowed to ride for the win at the end. That was Wout's exclusive privilege. So from Remco's point of view, what good would it have been not to empty himself in the service of Wout? Anyway Wout was just going to destroy everyone, right? Then Wout's legs failed himself and all Belgium witht them. But that's not Remco's fault in the least. That's my main beef with the criticism Evenepoel has gotten. The only reason Belgium failed was not because of how Remco rode, given the role he was assigned, but because Wout failed to deliver in the end.
Your main beef with the criticism is a criticism nobod is making
 
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That's not true. And please enlighten my with what criticsm has been made.
Nobody is arguing Van Aert would've won if Evenepoel had ridden as was told. The argument is htat Evenepoels riding simply hurt everyones chances in teh Belgian team.

And when you say

So from Remco's point of view, what good would it have been not to empty himself in the service of Wout?
It's not in service of Van Aert to go against the plan. He was just showing off how good he was while sabotaging the Belgian team. That's not a small issue
 
Nobody is arguing Van Aert would've won if Evenepoel had ridden as was told. The argument is htat Evenepoels riding simply hurt everyones chances in teh Belgian team.

And when you say


It's not in service of Van Aert to go against the plan. He was just showing off how good he was while sabotaging the Belgian team. That's not a small issue
That's not the point, rather that more criticism has been levied upon Remco for the way he rode than upon Wout for not being able to deliver in the end. This whilst being the exclusive leader and in my view being reticent about his bad legs. Since Evenepoel's riding had no bearing on Wout's bad legs that day, and because Remco was told by the DS that he would not be allowed to win, how he carried out team orders changed nothing for Belgium. From the moment Remco wasn't allowed to have his chance, while Wout was just supposed to make a triumphal procession into Leuven; Evenopoel's riding did nothing to hurt Belgium's chances. It would only have done so, had Belgium's DS told Remco before the start he was the alternative to win should Van Aert not be capable of delivering. Remco even asked for clarification concerning his role on the eve of the race, but was told he was only going to be Wout's donkey.

PS. In my view the problem was not with how REv rode in the race, but with the role he was given in the team. He should have been made co-leader, not sent into the early sorties, protected until the last 70-50 k of the race and then, depending on Wout's condition, utilized most effectively. Thus criticizing his riding when the real debacle was caused by team plans makes no sense.
 
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Oh I think it's pretty clear that when Remco was deployed to go with the early moves and again from 50k out he rode full gas because he was told by the Belgian DS that, under no circumstances, would he be allowed to ride for the win at the end. That was Wout's exclusive privilege. So from Remco's point of view, what good would it have been not to empty himself in the service of Wout? Anyway Wout was just going to destroy everyone, right? Then Wout's legs failed himself and all Belgium witht them. But that's not Remco's fault in the least. That's my main beef with the criticism Evenepoel has gotten. The only reason Belgium failed was not because of how Remco rode, given the role he was assigned, but because Wout failed to deliver in the end.
I don't agree, but each his opinion.
Remco was told to cover moves, not to ride full gas from 180K out (he even ignored the message not to pull, during the race. So stating that he did what he was told to do, is simply not true). While he maybe was told to go full gas somewhere in the race (e.g. between the Flandrien route and the local laps), he would for sure have been able to go full gas for much longer in the finale (if he hadn't wasted his energy in premature early moves).
Remco himself is responsible for wasting his own potential, and it doesn't go well to state after the race that you could have done while half or the energy was lost by your own mistake. Remco was misused tactically, but he made it worse himself, and the biggest part of the feeling that an opportunity has been wasted, is his own responsability. As long as he doesn't have that part right, he has no reason to say things in the media about having had the legs to do whatever.
 
I don't agree, but each his opinion.
Remco was told to cover moves, not to ride full gas from 180K out (he even ignored the message not to pull, during the race. So stating that he did what he was told to do, is simply not true). While he maybe was told to go full gas somewhere in the race (e.g. between the Flandrien route and the local laps), he would for sure have been able to go full gas for much longer in the finale (if he hadn't wasted his energy in premature early moves).
Remco himself is responsible for wasting his own potential, and it doesn't go well to state after the race that you could have done while half or the energy was lost by your own mistake. Remco was misused tactically, but he made it worse himself, and the biggest part of the feeling that an opportunity has been wasted, is his own responsability. As long as he doesn't have that part right, he has no reason to say things in the media about having had the legs to do whatever.
I agree with Remco foiling his own chances of doing something in the end. But the point is moot, and this is something I think you are overlooking, from the moment he was told before the race that he was not allowed to ride for the win.
 
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I agree with Remco foiling his own chances of doing something in the end. But the point is moot, and this is something I think you are overlooking, from the moment he was told before the race that he was not allowed to ride for the win.
I agree that Remco is not the only one to blame: The whole week before the race, you could feel that it wasn't a good mental prep with what was written in the media:
The race would be one the biggest ever in terms of audience, Belgium had the top favourite, that top favourite showed stellar form and demanded full support, while Remco's star was rising but he had to cope with critics that were doubting his dedication for the team...
This all led to a dubious communication about the Belgian strategy in the media (saying out loud that there is only one team leader, while even if that's the case, it's not smart to do so as often the race decides who has the best legs).

In the end, the Belgian team (and the coach, with his dubious tactical plan / communication) forgot to design a strategy in order to ride for the maximum result.
They were more concerned about following the strategy and putting up a show for the homecrowd.
 
I agree that Remco is not the only one to blame: The whole week before the race, you could feel that it wasn't a good mental prep with what was written in the media:
The race would be one the biggest ever in terms of audience, Belgium had the top favourite, that top favourite showed stellar form and demanded full support, while Remco's star was rising but he had to cope with critics that were doubting his dedication for the team...
This all led to a dubious communication about the Belgian strategy in the media (saying out loud that there is only one team leader, while even if that's the case, it's not smart to do so as often the race decides who has the best legs).

In the end, the Belgian team (and the coach, with his dubious tactical plan / communication) forgot to design a strategy in order to ride for the maximum result.
They were more concerned about following the strategy and putting up a show for the homecrowd.

It was never going to end well with the “one leader” boast. It might have made Wout feel good but it put an even bigger target on his back - a target that was easier to hit and the French did that. That’s the French team who has someone very competent as a co-leader in case Plan Ala didn’t work. Oh and that co-leader beat Van Aert in the sprint.!
 
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I agree that Remco is not the only one to blame: The whole week before the race, you could feel that it wasn't a good mental prep with what was written in the media:
The race would be one the biggest ever in terms of audience, Belgium had the top favourite, that top favourite showed stellar form and demanded full support, while Remco's star was rising but he had to cope with critics that were doubting his dedication for the team...
This all led to a dubious communication about the Belgian strategy in the media (saying out loud that there is only one team leader, while even if that's the case, it's not smart to do so as often the race decides who has the best legs).

In the end, the Belgian team (and the coach, with his dubious tactical plan / communication) forgot to design a strategy in order to ride for the maximum result.
They were more concerned about following the strategy and putting up a show for the homecrowd.
Yes, I agree with your assessment on all points. In the end, and this is just my perception, having been told he would not be allowed to race for the win, while announcing in the media that Belgium only rides for Wout, Remco decided to empty himself in the tasks he was given to perform as deluxe domestique. Sure, he was likely also putting on a show to let the Belgian fans know just how strong he was and in defiance of having his wings clipped before the start. But can you exactly blame him? He has a winner's mentaility and winners' egos don't handle well being allotted the remissive role he was assigned. And after all it was a really sh..t strategy.

Certainly he could have been more savey about it, however. He could have, for example, soft pedaled at times while making it seem like he was playing the consumate support role. A bit of dissimulation and false acting would have played to his advantage, and could have allowed him to be there for Belgium at the end when Wout faltered. Alas, his youth and disillusionment (for which the DS is wholly to blame for not giving Remco co-leadership) induced him to work against his own best interests in sacrifice for the team.
 
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Almeida is good enough to be a GT leader. I think Lefevere would have liked to hang on to him, but if he has to choose between Evenepoel and Almeida the choice is obvious and he can't compete in a bidding war with UAE.

The split with DQS and Lefevere doesn't seem all that bad now.

Remarkable, Almeida still gets every chance with the team and support from teammates, despite his departure . Which is very exceptional in cycling. All credit for that to Lefevere .
 
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I don't agree, but each his opinion.
Remco was told to cover moves, not to ride full gas from 180K out (he even ignored the message not to pull, during the race. So stating that he did what he was told to do, is simply not true). While he maybe was told to go full gas somewhere in the race (e.g. between the Flandrien route and the local laps), he would for sure have been able to go full gas for much longer in the finale (if he hadn't wasted his energy in premature early moves).
Remco himself is responsible for wasting his own potential, and it doesn't go well to state after the race that you could have done while half or the energy was lost by your own mistake. Remco was misused tactically, but he made it worse himself, and the biggest part of the feeling that an opportunity has been wasted, is his own responsability. As long as he doesn't have that part right, he has no reason to say things in the media about having had the legs to do whatever.


I seriously doubt about the bold one. To pull much longer he would have need to survive the attacks of Allaphilippe and be able to follow the group when Alla rode away. The only way he would have been able to do that was if he didn't need to pull the group away from the peleton. Even if he had ridden this part slower or more conservative, that would be an extremely absurd expectation. (expectation him being stronger than allaphilippe while riding 30km in front).

You can complain about Remco being in the front to soon, but you should also complain about the belgium team closing the gap to remco themselves, completely defeating the point of him being in the front-group.

Racing is about the moment, the group that rode away at 180km was a strong and dangerous group, it was good we had a good belgian in the group. Yes it could be someone else, but they didn't move!.
 
If to podium at Emilia and MT, both losing to Roglic, means that you are failing and can only be a domestique, then I guess that everyone in the peloton can only be a domestique, with the exception of Rogla and Poga. Honestly, where have you seen him failing "several times"? Worlds? It wasn't a circuit for his skills, at all. Europeans? Yes, agree, bad positioning, but there was no DQS squad there, right?

Like Pogacar, he had a heavy first half of the season, competing with mostly good results in UAE, T-A, Catalunya, Strade Bianche, LBL. He then peaked for Giro, where bar one day, he was levelled with all the best - he finished 6th, with the same time as the 5th, and anyone can agree that he could have easily finished one or two positions higher. Since then, with DQS, he won Luxembourg, Poland and podiumed in Emilia and MT. He didn't do well at Germany, but that wasn't really a tour with parcours that would favour him. Is that "failing several times heavily supported by DQS?"
I don't think you understand. No problems losing races..... if you win a race now and then. But if you always end up in the top five but don't win, you always end up as a domestique.
 
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Remarkable, Almeida still gets every chance with the team and support from teammates, despite his departure . Which is very exceptional in cycling. All credit for that to Lefevere .
Yeah people made a big deal about the Giro but I think that was Belgian national team level of bad tactics more than anything else.
Maybe the wily old man gave Almeida and Hodeg chances to show that the Bennett case was a very different matter. Plus, a win is a win.
 
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In my view, Remco robbed half of the team of their duties / moment of glory: Remco effectively determined the race between km 180 and km 125, and further on between km 90 and km 25.
The Belgian team had other guys for that, but with Remco on the front, they had to stay in place and couldn't even show if they had legs. You saw e.g. Lampaert doing his job by pulling hard in the local rounds before the 2nd Flandrien circuit (the moment in the race they got rid of Ewan and some other sprinters). At that moment, Teuns indicated that they were drilling it too hard on the front. Lots of things went wrong in the Belgian team, but if you blame riders for not having legs, you can as well blame riders who had excellent legs and wasted all that energy for unnecessary moves...

You say it very well: "If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader..."
Think about it: "If Evenepoel rode the race as a reserve leader..." a role that was complementary to his job before the start: covering dangerous moves. But Remco himself choose not only to to his job, but he also choose to do all kinds of jobs he wasn't supposed to do.
I partly agree, when you point on the fact that Evenepoel did 'to much'. But that was clearly a result of the wrong choices of the coach.
 
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Yeah people made a big deal about the Giro but I think that was Belgian national team level of bad tactics more than anything else.
Maybe the wily old man gave Almeida and Hodeg chances to show that the Bennett case was a very different matter. Plus, a win is a win.
In most teams, riders who leave for another team will no longer have the chance to participate in major competitions. More than that, they are just bullied away. Not in the Lefevere-team. Excluding riders who misbehave or who are not acting professionally, as we've seen this year with Bennett and years ago with Thomas De Gendt. This last one who doesn't do anything for the last two years at Lotto. As he didn't in his last year with Vacansoleil and his one year in the Lefevere-team.
 
But he is not a winner.....
In fact, he's there but lacks that one percent to consitently win. Is it his head or his body? I'm inclined towards the latter. At any rate, he certainly seems to be able to go very, very deep, to the point at which a more talented rider, used to winning on sheer physical prowess making it look so easy, rather gives up the moment he is put under the lash. Almeida is always put under the lash, but keeps on fighting, which is an admirable quality that personly I respect and admire.
 
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Remarkable, Almeida still gets every chance with the team and support from teammates, despite his departure . Which is very exceptional in cycling. All credit for that to Lefevere .
I think Lefevere recognizes in Almieda a true fighter, which has earned him respect, but sponsorship expectations have little inclination towards romanticism. Yet this is probably why Lefevere is letting him go with honors and full suppurt while still in the Wolfpack.
 
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In my view, Remco robbed half of the team of their duties / moment of glory: Remco effectively determined the race between km 180 and km 125, and further on between km 90 and km 25.
The Belgian team had other guys for that, but with Remco on the front, they had to stay in place and couldn't even show if they had legs. You saw e.g. Lampaert doing his job by pulling hard in the local rounds before the 2nd Flandrien circuit (the moment in the race they got rid of Ewan and some other sprinters). At that moment, Teuns indicated that they were drilling it too hard on the front. Lots of things went wrong in the Belgian team, but if you blame riders for not having legs, you can as well blame riders who had excellent legs and wasted all that energy for unnecessary moves...

You say it very well: "If Evenepoel had been used as a reserve leader..."
Think about it: "If Evenepoel rode the race as a reserve leader..." a role that was complementary to his job before the start: covering dangerous moves. But Remco himself choose not only to to his job, but he also choose to do all kinds of jobs he wasn't supposed to do.
Not sure if jokepost or not.

Remco robbed the other Belgians to show they had good legs... lolwut? The other Belgians thought the tempo was too high? Then why the *** did they initialize the chase on Remco themselves? Why didn't they just sit back and let another team do that? Or is Evenepoel to blame for their sudden loss of intelligence and tactical sense as well? In fact, the best thing to come of all this is a meme that has started to grow on social media: blame Evenepoel. Be it cycling, politics or environment... i'm sure it's somehow Remco's fault.

I don't really think initial comments from Vantourenhout after the race are a great indicator as he would probably be very reluctant to instantly start a flame war and would have wanted to keep any criticisms at each other as confined as possible as his ass could be on the line
He was talking to Pauwels in the team car during the race. I'm not sure he's thinking about the little camera on the dashboard at that time. He didn't seem to be thinking about it when he was saying "is this a joke or something". So i have no reason to believe he was holding back when Evenepoel pulled off the front and he complimented him for his job.