Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[hayneplane]

Kinda wish fat Evenepoel would ride Sanremo and De Ronde.

It would definitely liven up the tactical side of MSR to have a strong rider willing to shake it up 45 minutes plus away from the finish instead of waiting for the last 15 minutes of Poggio Ascent and descent and short flat finale.

 

[Monte Serra]

Kinda wish fat Evenepoel would ride Sanremo and De Ronde.

Can I just say, that strongly I dislike calling professional athletes with a very low body fat percentage 'fat'. It's well-known that weight management can become quite problematic for for many cyclists, male and female. The story of Brajkovič is probably emblematic for the often hidden struggles of many riders.

https://cyclingtips.com/2020/12/jan...tal-health-addiction-and-his-hope-for-change/

 

[Blanco]

The full article i spoke of: https://www.demorgen.be/sport/train...in-functie-van-luik-bastenaken-luik~b9d8886e/

• biggest personal goal of first part of the season: Liège

Alaphilippe will be thrilled

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Alaphilippe will be thrilled

Im amazed by the number of people who still haven't caught up with the QuickStep method and the fact that having multiple candidates within the team, actually increases each candidates' chances of winning considerably. With Alaphilippe as "only leader" going into the final with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 4 shot at winning. But with an attack from Evenepoel in the final, while Alaphilippe is in the same group with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 2 chance of winning. Either Evenepoel takes it home, or the others have to chase, and burn/waste energy, putting Alaphilippe in pole position to win the sprint. With the main difference being, should he not win, chances that it's his teammate who won, would be substantial.

Like Alfalum who thinks Alaphilippe should be only leader. Because that has worked wonders for Van Aert at Jumbo or at the WCC for Belgium.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

Im amazed by the number of people who still haven't caught up with the QuickStep method and the fact that having multiple candidates within the team, actually increases each candidates' chances of winning considerably. With Alaphilippe as "only leader" going into the final with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 4 shot at winning. But with an attack from Evenepoel in the final, while Alaphilippe is in the same group with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 2 chance of winning. Either Evenepoel takes it home, or the others have to chase, and burn/waste energy, putting Alaphilippe in pole position to win the sprint. With the main difference being, should he not win, chances that it's his teammate who won, would be substantial.

Like Alfalum who thinks Alaphilippe should be only leader. Because that has worked wonders for Van Aert at Jumbo or at the WCC for Belgium.

You think in that scenario Roglic, Mvdp, and Pogi have a 0% chance of winning? Not saying I necessarily disagree with the strategy but that conclusion is a little bold

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

You think in that scenario Roglic, Mvdp, and Pogi have a 0% chance of winning? Not saying I necessarily disagree with the strategy but that conclusion is a little bold

Obviously not, but i also don't think he'd have 1/4 of a chance against those 3 (specifically MvdP) should they go to the finish equally fresh. But if those would need to empty themselves chasing Evenepoel, which might not be an easy task, then his chances in the sprint would grow considerably. Maybe not to a 100%, but let's say to 50 or 60%, pulling a number out of my derrière. Either way, he personally would not have worse odds than without shared leadership and the team as a whole would be better off.

Now assume a domestique role for Evenepoel, who might still be there in the final. What would his job be? Extend the gap with the chasing group? Counter attacks by Roglic & Pogacar? He would basically be working for van der Poel just as much as he would for Alaphilippe, basically increasing mainly the Dutchman's chances in such a scenario. The only real advantage to be had by bringing Evenepoel, is to bring him as a co-leader and have him attack. Either the other favorites don't like the idea of going all out in the chase while dragging Alaphilippe to the finish on a freeride. Meaning chances for Evenepoel grow. Or they don't want to take any chances and go all out in pursuit of Evenepoel, towing Alaphilippe to the line.

It's just an example/hypothesis. Maybe Alaphilippe is strong enough to drop them all and go solo himself. In that case obviously Evenepoel wouldn't chase him and serve as a watchdog himself. Maybe he can go to the line with Mollema and Nibali, instead of Pog, Rog & MvdP. Or maybe Colbrelli fancies his chances etc. Point is, bringing Evenepoel as a co-leader doesn't have to be in his (Alaphilippe) disadvantage.

 

[AlfaLum]

Im amazed by the number of people who still haven't caught up with the QuickStep method and the fact that having multiple candidates within the team, actually increases each candidates' chances of winning considerably. With Alaphilippe as "only leader" going into the final with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 4 shot at winning. But with an attack from Evenepoel in the final, while Alaphilippe is in the same group with Pogacar, Roglic and Van der Poel, he basically has a 1 in 2 chance of winning. Either Evenepoel takes it home, or the others have to chase, and burn/waste energy, putting Alaphilippe in pole position to win the sprint. With the main difference being, should he not win, chances that it's his teammate who won, would be substantial.

Like Alfalum who thinks Alaphilippe should be only leader. Because that has worked wonders for Van Aert at Jumbo or at the WCC for Belgium.

I am amazed that some people fail to recognize the difference in tactics needed for a Flanders like Classic and an Ardennes Classic.

The Quickstep method hasnt been used in the Ardennes since Alaphilippe has become the best in the World in that Area of cycling. Alaphilippe should always be allowed to attack at the Roche Aux Faucons, because that is where his best chances are. Even if Remco is up the road already.

And from a hierarchical perspective in Sports i think you have to earn leadership first. You dont make a guy who is unproven (other than the fact that he has proven to have difficulties on steep climbs) joint leader to the best rider in the world for the Ardennes terrain. Every move Evenepoel makes should be in favor of Alaphilippe. Even if that is attacking move on Redoute, it should still be with Alaphilippe in mind. So he is a helper not a captain. Thats how it should be at least.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I am amazed that some people fail to recognize the difference in tactics needed for a Flanders like Classic and an Ardennes Classic.

The Quickstep method hasnt been used in the Ardennes since Alaphilippe has become the best in the World in that Area of cycling. I Will leave it at that.

To be fair they haven’t had the need to nor had a rider that could pull it off. Jungles won 2018 LBL from it. Boonen was the dominate won and they still used it in Flanders for Devolder.

 

[AlfaLum]

To be fair they haven’t had the need to nor had a rider that could pull it off. Jungles won 2018 LBL from it. Boonen was the dominate won and they still used it in Flanders for Devolder.

Yeah but Flanders is a totally different ball game. Thats where you have to use that tactic, and I even believe that Jumbo are doing it wrong if they go all-in on van Aert again as Wout is saying in interviews.

In the Ardennes it is different in my opinion. Definitely for Fleche, but also for Liege. If Remco makes a move it should be only because it can benefit Alaphilippe. But alaphillipe should be the only captain. Just like Valverde was in his prime.

And i think last year Quickstep had a Guy like Almeida on board, who is/was more proven than Remco is a punchy type of Guy and they didnt use the tactic. If they make Remco Mutual leader it is just to keep him happy.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yeah but Flanders is a totally different ball game. Thats where you have to use that tactic, and I even believe that Jumbo are doing it wrong if they go all-in on van Aert again as Wout is saying in interviews.

In the Ardennes it is different in my opinion. Definitely for Fleche, but also for Liege. If Remco makes a move it should be only because it can benefit Alaphilippe. But alaphillipe should be the only captain. Just like Valverde was in his prime.

And i think last year Quickstep had a Guy like Almeida on board, who is/was more proven than Remco is a punchy type of Guy and they didnt use the tactic. If they make Remco Mutual leader it is just to keep him happy.

Wasn’t Almeida considered a punchy threaten latter in the year last year?

 

[AlfaLum]

Wasn’t Almeida considered a punchy threaten latter in the year last year?

I think Poland was the definitive evidence how fast he is yes. But he already showed he is a good punchy finisher in the Giro & Emilia 2020. At least much more than the guy who is now training his thighs to have at least some explosiveness.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I think Poland was the definitive evidence how fast he is yes. But he already showed he is a good punchy finisher in the Giro & Emilia 2020. At least much more than the guy who is now training his thighs to have at least some explosiveness.

All I remember is people talking about how he was there because of the TTs in the Giro honestly.

 

[Boes]

The Quickstep method hasnt been used in the Ardennes since Alaphilippe has become the best in the World in that Area of cycling.

cough Bob Jungels in Liège 2018 cough

 

[AlfaLum]

cough Bob Jungels in Liège 2018 cough

Was Valverde not the best Ardennes rider still back then?

And didnt Jungels just win it from the ultimate key point of the race (Roche Aux Faucons) itself.

 

[Boes]

Was Valverde not the best Ardennes rider still back then?

And didnt Jungels just win it from the ultimate key point of the race (Roche Aux Faucons) itself.

2018 was already alaphillipe start prime time. If I remember correctly he did finished with the chasing group and had covered Jungels attack that way.

On topic, I agree that in Fleche Walloon a wolf pack has no use because of the final sprint (although Van Sevenant 2 years ago did make it easier for QST to win). But in almost every other cobble or hilly classic it's a huge advantage to be able to bet on more then one horse.

 

[AlfaLum]

2018 was already alaphillipe start prime time. If I remember correctly he did finished with the chasing group and had covered Jungels attack that way.

On topic, I agree that in Fleche Walloon a wolf pack has no use because of the final sprint (although Van Sevenant 2 years ago did make it easier for QST to win). But in almost every other cobble or hilly classic it's a huge advantage to be able to bet on more then one horse.

Yeah might not be bad. But i would still put Alaphilippe entirely in the leader role there. Of Evenepoel attacks it should be because that improves alaphilippes chances. Joint-captaincy is not a fair hierarchy in my opinion.

 

[Boes]

Yeah might not be bad. But i would still put Alaphilippe entirely in the leader role there. Of Evenepoel attacks it should be because that improves alaphilippes chances. Joint-captaincy is not a fair hierarchy in my opinion.

True. Problem with LBL is that both Alaphilippe and Evenepoel have to finish alone to win. Eventhough Alaphillipe is pretty fast, I don't see him winning sprints against Pogacar, MVP and Pidcock (nor would it be easy against Roglic or even Valverde). The new LBL parcour with the flat last couple of k's actually doesn't suit Alaphippe as much as the old parcour did. Hence it would be smart to use both Remco and Alaphilippe to either be able to finish alone or at least have the faster finishers like Pogacar wear themselves down prior to the sprint by having to do the chasework.

I for one, have my eyes on pidcock for this years LBL.

 

[AlfaLum]

True. Problem with LBL is that both Alaphilippe and Evenepoel have to finish alone to win. Eventhough Alaphillipe is pretty fast, I don't see him winning sprints against Pogacar, MVP and Pidcock (nor would it be easy against Roglic or even Valverde). The new LBL parcour with the flat last couple of k's actually doesn't suit Alaphippe as much as the old parcour did. Hence it would be smart to use both Remco and Alaphilippe to either be able to finish alone or at least have the faster finishers like Pogacar wear themselves down prior to the sprint by having to do the chasework.

I for one, have my eyes on pidcock for this years LBL.

Yeah, now that you mention him. Ineos in general can sent a very interesting team to Liege. With Thomas also going to start and probably guys like Yates, Kwiatkowski and maybe even Hayter. Alltogether Liege has become much more interesting recently.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Sorry Alfalum, i had no idea you were just trolling earlier. But i guess it makes sense now. Yes, Evenepoel is an unproven rider, and the only thing he has proven is that he has no punch.

Oh. My. F'ing. God.

In the Ardennes Quickstep hasn't used the Quickstep method SINCE JUNGELS (those were the dark ages, right?) because... * drumroll * they haven't had anyone but Alaphilippe who could actually ride the final and realistically bring home the bacon. You talk about Almeida as if he's a more proven rider. You have to be kidding me. As a 3 week GT rider, sure. As a 1 week stageracer, as an ITT rider and definitely as a classics rider and 1 day racer, Evenepoel is miles and miles ahead. Unproven you say, he won Classica San Sebastian, does that ring a bell? Druivenkoers, Brussels Cycling Classic, Coppa Bernocci, podium NC, 5th Emilia, and a slew of stagewins in hilly terrain. Poland, Adriatica Ionica, Algarve, Valencia, Burgos...

Also, please explain why Liège is so different from Flanders as to why the tactical concept of "i'm not riding, my teammate is up ahead" (or my teammate is coming back) is suddenly not possible. A tactic that is even used in cyclocross, in mountain stages in a GT, in an echelon stage or whatever, but for some strange and mysterious reason, this concept is not possible in a hilly classic. When Evenepoel won San Sebastian, Mas was his watchdog in the peloton. In Lombardia, Masnada bridged to Pogacar and didn't ride because he had his teammate in the chasing group. In that group, Alaphilippe didn't even have to work either because he had a teammate up ahead. So please enlighten me why this universal concept of teammates not riding against eachother, forcing their rivals to do the work and profiting from it in case the situation would change, is somehow not possible in Liège.

Mind. Blown.

 

[AlfaLum]

Sorry Alfalum, i had no idea you were just trolling earlier. But i guess it makes sense now. Yes, Evenepoel is an unproven rider, and the only thing he has proven is that he has no punch.

Oh. My. F'ing. God.

In the Ardennes Quickstep hasn't used the Quickstep method SINCE JUNGELS (those were the dark ages, right?) because... * drumroll * they haven't had anyone but Alaphilippe who could actually ride the final and realistically bring home the bacon. You talk about Almeida as if he's a more proven rider. You have to be kidding me. As a 3 week GT rider, sure. As a 1 week stageracer, as an ITT rider and definitely as a classics rider and 1 day racer, Evenepoel is miles and miles ahead. Unproven you say, he won Classica San Sebastian, does that ring a bell? Druivenkoers, Brussels Cycling Classic, Coppa Bernocci, podium NC, 5th Emilia, and a slew of stagewins in hilly terrain. Poland, Adriatica Ionica, Algarve, Valencia, Burgos...

Also, please explain why Liège is so different from Flanders as to why the tactical concept of "i'm not riding, my teammate is up ahead" (or my teammate is coming back) is suddenly not possible. A tactic that is even used in cyclocross, in mountain stages in a GT, in an echelon stage or whatever, but for some strange and mysterious reason, this concept is not possible in a hilly classic. When Evenepoel won San Sebastian, Mas was his watchdog in the peloton. In Lombardia, Masnada bridged to Pogacar and didn't ride because he had his teammate in the chasing group. In that group, Alaphilippe didn't even have to work either because he had a teammate up ahead. So please enlighten me why this universal concept of teammates not riding against eachother, forcing their rivals to do the work and profiting from it in case the situation would change, is somehow not possible in Liège.

Mind. Blown.

- Almeida shouldnt be used as a second captain, just like Evenepoel shouldnt. Both are not in the same League as Alaphilippe and should start in a supporting role.

- The tactic works way less than in Flanders because the race is decided at one point. Flanders races can be decided at many different parts. Fleche is super easy to control. But Liege has also proven to be easy to control until the Roche in recent years. So it just works less.

- As said, Jungels went on that decisive point when hè won. Not before. If Evenepoel is stronger than Alaphilippe their than I would be very surprised. In my opinion that is so unlikely that Alaphilippe should always attack on Roche Aux Faucons.

- I dont say it is impossible. And you move around my key point. Which is simply that Alaphilippe deserves a Squad full of riders that work for him. Evenepoel does not deserve joint-leadership in these races yet.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

He was even a captain at 19 years of age in San Sebastian when he won it. Before the race he was 3rd in line after Alaphilippe and Mas. Alaphilippe quit and during the race the DS said it was his move. Mas stayed in the group in case they were to reel him back. During recon, Wilfried Peeters said he could win it, when he saw him drop all his teammates (including Alaphilippe) on the climbs. Yes, he has proven plenty to start as a co-leader, just play their cards in different circumstances.

You say the tactics work less because the race is decided at one point. The race is never decided "at one point" a priori. If it were they could just put the finish at that point. The races Evenepoel has won, were never decided at the point people assumed it would be. Nobody in their right mind assumed the race would be decided when and where he attacked at San Sebastian. Same for Druivenkoers, same for his raid in Poland and the same in AIR which was supposed to be an uphill sprint finish for Gilbert. This constant belittling of Evenepoel and what he is capable of is a farce.

 

[Wvv]

@AlfaLum : not meant as an insult, but your argumentation shows a rather biased and limited view on cycling.
I'm 99 % sure Alaphilippe and everyone at the team will be glad to start with Remco as a second or co-leader.

 

[AlfaLum]

@AlfaLum : not meant as an insult, but your argumentation shows a rather biased and limited view on cycling.
I'm 99 % sure Alaphilippe and everyone at the team will be glad to start with Remco as a second or co-leader.

Just like van Aert was last year?

I think that Alaphilippe is only happy if he is the first man in the hierarchy. And I think he deserves that without belittling Evenepoel. Similar to having Roglic start as the real captain compared to Vingegaard or Pogacar to Hirschi.

 

[Wvv]

I think that Alaphilippe is only happy if he is the first man in the hierarchy. And I think he deserves that without belittling Evenepoel. Similar to having Roglic start as the real captain compared to Vingegaard or Pogacar to Hirschi.

Unless Ala doesn't show great form in the races before, I think he'll always be the first man. Doesn't mean the lieutenant should sit tight and only do helper's work. As Logic' explained, Alaphilippe could benefit a lot when the team (and certainly Remco) puts pressure on opponents by riding agressively.

Just like van Aert was last year?

Thanks for bringing that up. Belgium lost that race because they decided to go with a ridiculously restricted plan.

 

[AlfaLum]

Unless Ala doesn't show great form in the races before, I think he'll always be the first man. Doesn't mean the lieutenant should sit tight and only do helper's work. As Logic' explained, Alaphilippe could benefit a lot when the team (and certainly Remco) puts pressure on opponents by riding agressively.


Thanks for bringing that up. Belgium lost that race because they decided to go with a ridiculously restricted plan.

As I said before, I am not saying that Evenepoel should do domestique duties by racing at the front of the peloton and controlling everything. I am saying that every move that Evenepoel makes in Liege should be with Alaphilippe in mind. So only if it benefits Alaphilippe there should be an attack from Evenepoel. For me that is not a joint-leadership, that is using your team-mates in a way that is the most efficient. Quick-step should start those races with multiple tactical plans, but always with Evenepoel a step lower in the hierarchy than Alaphilippe.

And I also still maintain that the sending a team-mate up the road tactic is just way less effective in the Ardennes than it is in the Flanders Classics.