Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Krzysztof_O]

Why are people comparing Evenepoel to Roglic? It's like comparing an F1 car to a tricycle.

Who is a tricycle though?

 

[bNator]

Here’s your context.

I brought up Roglic because it was the Roglic fans crapping on Evenepoel.

Roglic was the out right leader of the team in 2017 in the stage races while he was the best placed rider on the team in a 2016 race and potential coleader with Gesink and Kruijswijk, none of the three being remotely close to a top 10. Vingegaard was a domestique in three of the races. Evenepoel while having those high expectations that he has not lived up to being placed on him, didn’t focus on the week stage races like the Jumbo riders. Evenepoel focused has been split between those, classics, and the smaller week races. In the past it was considered an extreme rarity to do well in all of those facets in the same year besides Valverde and Pogacar. Evenepoel also was younger than the two Jumbos and had a devasting crash, with both Jumbos having crash setbacks as well and we are unable to judge how severe each was to the specific rider. Roglic was also starting to receive a growing hype after each race on this forum but obviously not to Evenepoel’s magnitude. Would the hype be way to high on WT stage races, yes I agree with you. But that doesn’t mean he is a slouch in the races.

I feel sorry too, he’s had so much hype put on him that any failure to live up to it, he gets crapped on. Even when he succeeds he gets crapped on by some. It’s like when children of famous athletes or stars have to live up to their parents and attempt to get out of their spotlight.

Roglic, like others in the past has been doubted because of the crashes adding up and age. Without the crashes last year I would have him just below Pog and Vinge and above Evenepoel for stage racing. Is it far he’s called a boring mountain sprinter, no but it is accurate at this point in his career. Has he gone long range attacks, yes but rarely when close the lead. I’m not going to hate someone for riding to the best of their ability and winning. The goal is to win and Roglic has been consistently winning for a long time. I don’t know who would have won if no crashes or sickness as Roglic was hampered by crashes as well but my money would have been Evenepoel before the race. That doesn’t diminish Roglic’s win at all as you can only beat who you race and he dominated the last stage. Maybe I’m misremembering but there was understanding before the Vuelta that he could struggle based on his severe injury from all sides. Roglic was also hyped up to win by his fans and others leading to a constant bickering between the two camps. Any weakness Roglic showed, Evenepoel’s camp would belittle Roglic in retaliation to them receiving it from Roglic’s side. The worst came though after the Wright crash. It’s a vicious cycle.

I’m a fan of both riders and like each camps members but both get tiring though I’ve soured a little on Roglic’s camp since the Wright crash. Hard to imagine but I picked Roglic to win and supported him at 19 Giro, 20 Tour, Vuelta’ he won, and the Olympic TT.

Do I want Evenepoel to win? Yes, just like I want Pogacar, Pinot, and Cavendish to win as frequently as they can and root for them in the races.

I think the forum as a whole would be a better place with less Evenepoel hype by fans and ridicule by anti fans that will slowly spill into the other threads.

I was not going to debate you on Roglic vs Remco topic. I was merely explainig the mechanics of too high expectations generating disappointment on one side and "crapping on" on the other side. And I think we will have to agree he did not meet the expectations regarding stage races. That's why he's getting crapped on.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I was not going to debate you on Roglic vs Remco topic. I was merely explainig the mechanics of too high expectations generating disappointment on one side and "crapping on" on the other side. And I think we will have to agree he did not meet the expectations regarding stage races. That's why he's getting crapped on.

I would argue at least in week stage races I do not know if the hype/expectations are as high as with the dominating GTs, monuments, Worlds, and Olympics. Just that he should be able to win them, which obviously he hasn’t done so yet. I would say the expectations and ridicule peak occurred in 2021 after not winning at Olympics, EC, or Worlds and DNFing the Giro.

I think the only time he’s been top three favorite in a big week stage race was this year (maybe ToBC and TdS last year). Which would be on par with Roglic and Vinge’s first 5 races of being a favorite and leader, and my point to bring Rolgic up was response to @Netserk with Vinge. Like Netserk pointed out, Evenepoel as a rider is a higher level for his first 5 races compared to Vinge and Roglic but he’s also younger and has his classics goals which the other two haven’t had. Pog and Valverde are/were able to do GTs, stage races, monuments, and classics at a very high level. Purito and Nibali did as well to a smaller extent.

 

[bNator]

I would argue at least in week stage races I do not know if the hype/expectations are as high as with the dominating GTs, monuments, Worlds, and Olympics. Just that he should be able to win them, which obviously he hasn’t done so yet. I would say the expectations and ridicule peak occurred in 2021 after not winning at Olympics, EC, or Worlds and DNFing the Giro.

I think the only time he’s been top three favorite in a big week stage race was this year (maybe ToBC and TdS last year). Which would be on par with Roglic and Vinge’s first 5 races of being a favorite and leader, and my point to bring Rolgic up was response to @Netserk with Vinge. Like Netserk pointed out, Evenepoel as a rider is a higher level for his first 5 races compared to Vinge and Roglic but he’s also younger and has his classics goals which the other two haven’t had. Pog and Valverde are/were able to do GTs, stage races, monuments, and classics at a very high level. Purito and Nibali did as well to a smaller extent.

Agree with most of it except for Roglič not having classics goals. He targeted Lombardia and Italian autumn classics more than once, Fleche Wallone, LBL (obviously). It's just on a smaller scale compared to Pog/Remco. But still way more compared to Vinge...

 

[wickedw]

I just love the rate that cycling fans make up their minds about a certain rider, and then change it based on the last stage or fairly useless comparison statistics. Also absolutely love the Twitter cyclist commentators who will immediately claim that any rider who wins a stage is suddenly the next demi god, even though they lost over a minute in the previous stage.

When judging a rider, you need to look at an entire season and most importantly you need to look at their actual set out objectives that they have trained and peaked for and which stage of their season they are in. Any other comparison is absolutely useless. Vingegaard got absolutely destroyed in Paris - Nice by Pogi, and landed on another 30 seconds from Gaudu. He destroyed that very same Gaudu with over 25 minutes in the dauphine. Imagine making a conclusion about Vingegaard after Paris - Nice. Absurd. Also let's not forget that QS is a terrible GC team, I reckon he could have won a few more stage races in a better team, but that's another topic.

So the issue here is that Remco obviously is not anywhere near his peak form and is competing against guys who are either towards the end of their Tour prep or have actually targeted this race. Considering that, he's doing absolutely fine. He is still in with a shout for winning the entire thing, though it will take something special in the time trial. But even if he doesn't, he'll still likely end up in the top 3. I think that's a decent result considering a covid exit from the giro (which likely undid all his altitude training) and very little prep before the race. We still don't know what he's capable of in higher altitude stages because of the Giro exit, we'll have to wait and see. Perhaps Vuelta?

The problem is maybe that people just expect more from him, and perhaps also that he expects more from himself. If he hadn't launched into a suicide attack on the 3d stage, he might have just won it in the sprint instead, but he didn't and lost time instead. He did fine on the 4th stage and yesterday he lost more time due to his descending. I don't think he's a bad descender actually, but I think he's just scared. I'd be too if I had flown off a cliff. Actually, I'd be scared even without that at those speeds.

 

[Venge 82]

Just heard the news about Gino Mäder. This really makes me feel sad and silent. I'm also pissed.
Already yesterday before the stage, I couldn't understand the finish was on a descent. What's the added value of that?

Every race organisation/sport has its responsibility to reduce risks. A finish on a descent is just utterly stupid.
Descents are part of cycling (you can't go up if you don't come down), but this is really pushing riders to their limits.
It's not that these guys are wearing protection. Yeah, a helmet and a thin layer of Lycra.

Honestly, I'm really glad Remco didn't take risks yesterday. The TdS will not make or break his career.

It's just so damn stupid that someone passed away. Another son, brother, friend, husband,... that will be missed.

 

[ManicJack]

Here’s your context.

Roglic was the out right leader of the team in 2017 in the stage races while he was the best placed rider on the team in a 2016 race and potential coleader with Gesink and Kruijswijk, none of the three being remotely close to a top 10. Vingegaard was a domestique in three of the races. .

Didn't know Vingo raced for JV in '16 & '17. Must not of been paying close enough attention.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Didn't know Vingo raced for JV in '16 & '17. Must not of been paying close enough attention.

If you read what was being discussed, I was referring to Evenepoel, Roglic, and Vinge’s first 5 big week stage races.

 

[Bonimenier]

I was not going to debate you on Roglic vs Remco topic. I was merely explainig the mechanics of too high expectations generating disappointment on one side and "crapping on" on the other side. And I think we will have to agree he did not meet the expectations regarding stage races. That's why he's getting crapped on.

He was being crapped on since before he turned pro so this just seems like a story you tell yourself to justify your crap.

 

[Netserk]

I would argue at least in week stage races I do not know if the hype/expectations are as high as with the dominating GTs, monuments, Worlds, and Olympics. Just that he should be able to win them, which obviously he hasn’t done so yet. I would say the expectations and ridicule peak occurred in 2021 after not winning at Olympics, EC, or Worlds and DNFing the Giro.

I think the only time he’s been top three favorite in a big week stage race was this year (maybe ToBC and TdS last year). Which would be on par with Roglic and Vinge’s first 5 races of being a favorite and leader, and my point to bring Rolgic up was response to @Netserk with Vinge. Like Netserk pointed out, Evenepoel as a rider is a higher level for his first 5 races compared to Vinge and Roglic but he’s also younger and has his classics goals which the other two haven’t had. Pog and Valverde are/were able to do GTs, stage races, monuments, and classics at a very high level. Purito and Nibali did as well to a smaller extent.

Tirreno last year: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/optakt_tirreno-adriatico_2022/

***** Tadej Pogacar

**** Jonas Vingegaard, Remco Evenepoel

*** Enric Mas, Miguel Angel Lopez, Pello Bilbao, Richie Porte, Giulio Ciccone

** Damiano Caruso, Julian Alaphilippe, Rigoberto Uran, Rafal Majka, Sepp Kuss, Richard Carapaz, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Cristian Rodriguez, Domenico Pozzovivo, Mikel Landa, Wilco Kelderman, Mark Padun

* Romain Bardet, Geoffrey Bouchard, Emmanuel Buchmann, Jai Hindley, Victor Lafay, Warren Barguil, Lorenzo Rota, Maxim van Gils, Tim Wellens, Ruben Guerreiro, Lorenzo Fortunato, Jakob Fuglsang, Thyemn Arensman, Thibaut Pinot, Harold Tejada, Davide Formolo, Marc Soler, Jhonatan Narvaez, Maxime Bouet, Koen Bouwman, Matteo Sobrero, Thibault Guernalec, Davide Villella, Jefferson Cepeda, Eduardo Sepulveda

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Tirreno last year: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/optakt_tirreno-adriatico_2022/

***** Tadej Pogacar

**** Jonas Vingegaard, Remco Evenepoel

*** Enric Mas, Miguel Angel Lopez, Pello Bilbao, Richie Porte, Giulio Ciccone

** Damiano Caruso, Julian Alaphilippe, Rigoberto Uran, Rafal Majka, Sepp Kuss, Richard Carapaz, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Cristian Rodriguez, Domenico Pozzovivo, Mikel Landa, Wilco Kelderman, Mark Padun

* Romain Bardet, Geoffrey Bouchard, Emmanuel Buchmann, Jai Hindley, Victor Lafay, Warren Barguil, Lorenzo Rota, Maxim van Gils, Tim Wellens, Ruben Guerreiro, Lorenzo Fortunato, Jakob Fuglsang, Thyemn Arensman, Thibaut Pinot, Harold Tejada, Davide Formolo, Marc Soler, Jhonatan Narvaez, Maxime Bouet, Koen Bouwman, Matteo Sobrero, Thibault Guernalec, Davide Villella, Jefferson Cepeda, Eduardo Sepulveda

That‘s over a quarter of participants on this list.
Anyway, there‘s always a believable reason to be bad, you can‘t be bad for no reason. It‘s weird how it correlates with big one-week stage races for Remco, maybe it‘s mental in part. He has underwhelmed, but that shouldn’t be an indicator for the future, I hope.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Tirreno last year: https://www.feltet.dk/nyheder/optakt_tirreno-adriatico_2022/

***** Tadej Pogacar

**** Jonas Vingegaard, Remco Evenepoel

*** Enric Mas, Miguel Angel Lopez, Pello Bilbao, Richie Porte, Giulio Ciccone

** Damiano Caruso, Julian Alaphilippe, Rigoberto Uran, Rafal Majka, Sepp Kuss, Richard Carapaz, Tao Geoghegan Hart, Cristian Rodriguez, Domenico Pozzovivo, Mikel Landa, Wilco Kelderman, Mark Padun

* Romain Bardet, Geoffrey Bouchard, Emmanuel Buchmann, Jai Hindley, Victor Lafay, Warren Barguil, Lorenzo Rota, Maxim van Gils, Tim Wellens, Ruben Guerreiro, Lorenzo Fortunato, Jakob Fuglsang, Thyemn Arensman, Thibaut Pinot, Harold Tejada, Davide Formolo, Marc Soler, Jhonatan Narvaez, Maxime Bouet, Koen Bouwman, Matteo Sobrero, Thibault Guernalec, Davide Villella, Jefferson Cepeda, Eduardo Sepulveda

Fair enough. I would have thought Pog, Vinge, and Porte above the rest and Evenepoel with the 3 stars.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

In light of the tragic death of Mader, hopefully the terrible and dangerous disparagement “Bambi” will be retired. No one should be ridiculed for not risking their life for a few seconds in a bike race.

I thought the nickname was about ‚Bambi’ tending to fall over, not taking too little risk. I haven‘t watched the movie in a while, though.

 

[SHAD0W93]

I thought the nickname was about ‚Bambi’ tending to fall over, not taking too little risk. I haven‘t watched the movie in a while, though.

I thought Bambi was due to riding slow and all over the place while the tricycle is for the falling over?

 

[Netserk]

In light of the tragic death of Mader, hopefully the terrible and dangerous disparagement “Bambi” will be retired. No one should be ridiculed for not risking their life for a few seconds in a bike race.

I gave him the moniker because of how he rode on gravel, not down a mountain. Be less hysterical.

No, I do not think he risked death and that I thus mocked him for trying to avoid that in the Montalcino stage in the 2021 Giro.

 

[Netserk]

It was also a classic case of Bambi in Brabantse Pijl last year.

 

[Tem]

.. in week stage races I do not know if the hype/expectations are as high .. Just that he should be able to win them..

I agree, expectations are not high, he just has to win. 😋

 

[bNator]

He was being crapped on since before he turned pro so this just seems like a story you tell yourself to justify your crap.

Wow… Harsh accusations. Especially from someone like you. Go read your posts on Roglic. And then compare them to my posts on Remco. Yours are waaaaay crappier…

 

[Riek s]

I’m not being “hysterical.” I’m sorry you feel attacked. I’m not even sure what the second half of your post references, or that you were the originator. I do know that people frequently mock riders, particularly Remco, for descending “like a grandma” or being “Bambi,” and, for me, this is a moment of recognition that these are real people facing incredible pressure and high danger. Remco has experienced this firsthand, too, as had Froome. And now another death. That’s all. You’ll have to search for hysteria elsewhere.

I think a lot of riders have been mocked for bambi/like a grandma not just Remco and to be honest in some cases it is waranted as well. I think their is a distinction between not taking risks and descending so bad that that not taking risks make you get more risk.
Remco had such a descend in 2021 in the Giro, where Netserk pointed at, where he really rode a descend to make one shiver just because he tried to not take risks, taking such bad lines that it made it way more dangerous. Ofcourse there are reasons for that and he worked on that, but it is still valid to say that someone is really bad at descending.
For me that is much broader than taken risks, that also includes the skill of descending, knowing how to place your bike and how to corner, where to be when to pedal. I think the different terminology (i'll phrase it like that) alludes more to that than it is to the willingness of 'risks'.

 

[Netserk]

I think a lot of riders have been mocked for bambi/like a grandma not just Remco and to be honest in some cases it is waranted as well. I think their is a distinction between not taking risks and descending so bad that that not taking risks make you get more risk.
Remco had such a descend in 2021 in the Giro, where Netserk pointed at, where he really rode a descend to make one shiver just because he tried to not take risks, taking such bad lines that it made it way more dangerous. Ofcourse there are reasons for that and he worked on that, but it is still valid to say that someone is really bad at descending.
For me that is much broader than taken risks, that also includes the skill of descending, knowing how to place your bike and how to corner, where to be when to pedal. I think the different terminology (i'll phrase it like that) alludes more to that than it is to the willingness of 'risks'.

To expand: Bambi is not avoiding risks. Bambi is not even particularly afraid. Bambi on ice is out of his element. Bambi is not a natural, Bambi is awkward.

Is it legitimate to mock a rider for being a Bambi? Absolutely. If you may praise a rider for having skills and for being a natural (see MvdP and Sagan), the flip side is that you may mock those who lack those qualities. Just as other riders, like Froome, have been mocked for the qualities they lacked.

The tragic death of another rider is completely irrelevant to that.

 

[Berniece]

I thought Bambi was due to riding slow and all over the place while the tricycle is for the falling over?

I thought Bambi was due to his father killing his career as manager the way he handles things

 

[Netserk]

Good to see him going for the win today despite the ITT tomorrow.

 

[kingjr]

Good to see him going for the win today despite the ITT tomorrow.

Nice little warm-up ride for tomorrow.

 

[Netserk]

Sure, I don't really think this burned any matches for tomorrow with how much they have ridden these two days. I can only imagine that it makes it mentally easier to concentrate and go full gas in the ITT.

 

[Oldermanish]

Good to see him going for the win today despite the ITT tomorrow.

Can't imagine how a rider that has sufferred the crash he's recovered from deals with Mader's tragic accident. Probably many emotions for him like the rest of the peloton. Good luck to all tomorrow.