Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Amazing stuff here... Remco 3 for 3 this year! Argument that he's the best 1 day racer! With that logic, Colbrelli was the better PR rider than Boonen. 1 for 1 vs 4 in over 10 tries. Colbrelli might just be the best Paris-Roubaix rider of all times!

3 for 3 is impressive, as is 5/8 for Pogacar. Pogacar btw has won the last 4 1 day races he entered and finished, RVV, Amstel, Flèche and the Slovenian national Championship. Not too shabby either. But of course 3/3 beats that according to the "logic" from some people here.

Most successful in 23? Right now has to be Van der Poel, 2 monuments. Closely followed by Pogacar, who is 1 win away from overtaking him. Next Remco. But of course this year for the moment we aren't discussing the most successful, but the best. Weird, last year the best was Evenepoel based on palmares, this year it's based on strike rate. If we didn't know that all Remco fans are objective at all times we would have to suspect they tweak their arguments to get the result they want.

Remco needs to ride more 1 day races, that simple. RVV? There was no reason not to ride it this year, even less next year. IMO it should fit him quite well actually. And see Colbrelli, the best pavé rider of all times, if the form is right, and Remco's usually is, everything can happen. Amstel, Flèche, MSR, even Gent etc., he should be there. Maybe 24 if he goes to the Tour? I predict that he will be the best in 2024 again anyway, although I'm not sure what criteria will be used then.

 

[303pbmf]

As Savant 12; you must have weaker powers of perception. I never said he couldn't win PR. I was comparing the Tour's trip on cobbles to the Real Thing.
Maybe Savant 1 can explain it....
He, Remco and all other hopefuls are only pretenders until they attempt it. IMO they don't need it to be great and they would have to prepare for it. Specialists dominate the race and you'd need to dedicate at least half a season to race it if you're a GT guy. Your GT form for the first half of the year would be a compromised prep and there's the possibility you'd break something.
What's your prognostication?

Thats why Gilbert won it on his third try?

 

[Savant12]

As Savant 12; you must have weaker powers of perception. I never said he couldn't win PR. I was comparing the Tour's trip on cobbles to the Real Thing.
Maybe Savant 1 can explain it....
He, Remco and all other hopefuls are only pretenders until they attempt it. IMO they don't need it to be great and they would have to prepare for it. Specialists dominate the race and you'd need to dedicate at least half a season to race it if you're a GT guy. Your GT form for the first half of the year would be a compromised prep and there's the possibility you'd break something.
What's your prognostication?

I think if Pog wants to race PR then he should - I wouldn't consider him a "pretender". I'm sure he was called that when he decided to race on cobbles and we see how good his results have been. Race prep is only compromised if he crashes but then again he crashed out in LBL and his TdF prep was compromised. Crashes can happen in any race or even in training. I don't see how his form is compromised should he race PR, a week after Flanders. He might have to juggle his schedule thereafter by doing only 1 of Amstel/Fleche and LBL.

 

[Peter von]

I think if Pog wants to race PR then he should - I wouldn't consider him a "pretender". I'm sure he was called that when he decided to race on cobbles and we see how good his results have been. Race prep is only compromised if he crashes but then again he crashed out in LBL and his TdF prep was compromised. Crashes can happen in any race or even in training. I don't see how his form is compromised should he race PR, a week after Flanders. He might have to juggle his schedule thereafter by doing only 1 of Amstel/Fleche and LBL.

in his post race interview this year Pogi talked about needing to be heavier to race PR. It night just have been an easy way for him to reject going without being too technical or seeming dismissive. And he didn't go into specifics, he could be talking about 1/2 kg or 5 kg and obviously weight isn't just weight.

But it could also be how he sees it. In which case he also needs to loose weight between PR and le Tour if he does it. Which is also totally doable I doubt we are talking a big weight gain.

I do however think that if Pogi does PR, he should take a big break after that and not do Ardennes. Physically I think it should be doable, but mentally I think anyone would need to take a step back after P-N, MSR, RvV and PR. And Pogi more so if he is serious about going for a Tour win.

Edit: and obvisouly if Pogi wan'ts to do PR he should totally do that. And if he want's to only do stage races to (attempt to) optimize his Tour prep he should do that. If he want's to only ride Europe Tour races... he needs to get his priorities in order

 

[Salvarani]

Amazing stuff here... Remco 3 for 3 this year! Argument that he's the best 1 day racer! With that logic, Colbrelli was the better PR rider than Boonen. 1 for 1 vs 4 in over 10 tries. Colbrelli might just be the best Paris-Roubaix rider of all times!

3 for 3 is impressive, as is 5/8 for Pogacar. Pogacar btw has won the last 4 1 day races he entered and finished, RVV, Amstel, Flèche and the Slovenian national Championship. Not too shabby either. But of course 3/3 beats that according to the "logic" from some people here.

Most successful in 23? Right now has to be Van der Poel, 2 monuments. Closely followed by Pogacar, who is 1 win away from overtaking him. Next Remco. But of course this year for the moment we aren't discussing the most successful, but the best. Weird, last year the best was Evenepoel based on palmares, this year it's based on strike rate. If we didn't know that all Remco fans are objective at all times we would have to suspect they tweak their arguments to get the result they want.

Remco needs to ride more 1 day races, that simple. RVV? There was no reason not to ride it this year, even less next year. IMO it should fit him quite well actually. And see Colbrelli, the best pavé rider of all times, if the form is right, and Remco's usually is, everything can happen. Amstel, Flèche, MSR, even Gent etc., he should be there. Maybe 24 if he goes to the Tour? I predict that he will be the best in 2024 again anyway, although I'm not sure what criteria will be used then.

You have precisely described it and that is why his nickname is the "Almighty". No matter what, the Almighty comes out on top.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Amazing stuff here... Remco 3 for 3 this year! Argument that he's the best 1 day racer! With that logic, Colbrelli was the better PR rider than Boonen. 1 for 1 vs 4 in over 10 tries. Colbrelli might just be the best Paris-Roubaix rider of all times!

3 for 3 is impressive, as is 5/8 for Pogacar. Pogacar btw has won the last 4 1 day races he entered and finished, RVV, Amstel, Flèche and the Slovenian national Championship. Not too shabby either. But of course 3/3 beats that according to the "logic" from some people here.

Most successful in 23? Right now has to be Van der Poel, 2 monuments. Closely followed by Pogacar, who is 1 win away from overtaking him. Next Remco. But of course this year for the moment we aren't discussing the most successful, but the best. Weird, last year the best was Evenepoel based on palmares, this year it's based on strike rate. If we didn't know that all Remco fans are objective at all times we would have to suspect they tweak their arguments to get the result they want.

Remco needs to ride more 1 day races, that simple. RVV? There was no reason not to ride it this year, even less next year. IMO it should fit him quite well actually. And see Colbrelli, the best pavé rider of all times, if the form is right, and Remco's usually is, everything can happen. Amstel, Flèche, MSR, even Gent etc., he should be there. Maybe 24 if he goes to the Tour? I predict that he will be the best in 2024 again anyway, although I'm not sure what criteria will be used then.

Did you try "the logic of reading" as well per chance?

He is 3/3 one day races this year. He is 2/4 monuments since turning pro including the ones where he crashed and right after his comeback. He is 1/3 WCC races (won the one where he was leader). He is 8/20 one day races of over 200km. He is 3/3 one day races above 250km where he started as leader. He is 3/3 in San Sebastian. He is 2/2 in Liège.

I also clearly stated that it is imho not just about palmares, but also winning percentage and likelihood of winning. He has 3 major one day race wins (WCC + 2 monuments). That's one less than Pogacar and Van der Poel (4 monuments) but he had a lot less tries to get those. You find fault in that logic? Then i pity you.

But sure, like Colbrelli. lol

You have precisely described it and that is why his nickname is the "Almighty". No matter what, the Almighty comes out on top.

You make it sound like you don't mean it.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Reading is not a "logic", it's a skill. As you might have figured that out when writing "skillset" in the next sentence, but figuring things out maybe isn't in your skillset?

Writing the same thing over and over btw isn't an overly convincing argument either.

Colbrelli? Lol as much as you want, but he's unbeaten in in Paris-Roubaix. 1 for 1.

 

[Salvarani]

Reading is not a "logic", it's a skill. As you might have figured that out when writing "skillset" in the next sentence, but figuring things out maybe isn't in your skillset?

Writing the same thing over and over btw isn't an overly convincing argument either.

Colbrelli? Lol as much as you want, but he's unbeaten in in Paris-Roubaix. 1 for 1.

100%.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Reading is not a "logic", it's a skill. As you might have figured that out when writing "skillset" in the next sentence, but figuring things out maybe isn't in your skillset?

Writing the same thing over and over btw isn't an overly convincing argument either.

Colbrelli? Lol as much as you want, but he's unbeaten in in Paris-Roubaix. 1 for 1.

Oh no, you made fun of me mocking you mocking my logic! Aarrggh. I was totally unaware reading is not a logic but a skill! Seems you bested me.

Colbrelli is 1/1 which he won at the age of 31. Which can be a sign of greatness, or a sign he got lucky. He is 1/18 in all monuments he entered at the end of his career which already puts him behind Evenepoel at the age of 22. Winning 2/2 (Evenepoel in Liège) is already an entirely different story. Even winning 2/4 monuments (Evenepoel) or 2/5 Ronde Van Vlaanderen (Van der Poel) shows it had little to do with luck. So in no way, shape or form is bringing Colbrelli up anything but a disingenuous attempt to undercut an objective logical take. I did not base my conclusion on one result, i did not leave out results (like you did for Colbrelli). It's all there.

If you only want to look at WT+WCC level one day races, that's fine by me too, don't worry:

Evenepoel has 6/14 - (43%) (of wich the last 5/5, clearly a lucky streak)
Pogacar has 8/36 - (22%)
Van der Poel is 8/30 - (27%)

But please dear sir, please educate me further on logic.

PS: Wanna know Colbrelli's?

Colbrelli is 1/65 - (1.5%)

No, that is not a joke.

 

[Salvarani]

Pogacar 46 WT wins out of 62 wins.

Evenepole 17 WT wins out of 46 wins.

 

[houtdffan]

Of Remco's 9 wins this year, all except for the nat championships have been at the WT level

 

[Ilmaestro99]

Well Remco is definitely the best in the world at classica San sebastian. There is no doubt on that.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

Pogacar 46 WT wins out of 62 wins.

Evenepole 17 WT wins out of 46 wins.

I don't know Evenepole, but assuming you mean Evenepoel, he started his professional career straight from the juniors. Pogacar rode 2 seasons among the U23 before turning pro and was a year and a half older than Evenepoel upon doing so.

Furthermore, Evenepoel had a nasty crash that took nearly a season to recover from, and nearly another season to get back to his best form.

Do i need to explain to you, that it makes sense for a rider skipping the U23, to get a lighter program compared to a rider doing 2 years of U23 first? Do i need to explain to you that a rider who lost roughly a year and a half in his development due to an injury, would see that translated into these numbers?

Furthermore, we were talking about one day races, for which i included the races he crashed, or was not in top shape after his recovery. Raw numbers.

But you think you need to mock the almighty's logic? You think you are being logical?

 

[Salvarani]

Well Remco is definitely the best in the world at classica San sebastian. There is no doubt on that.

The Almighty chooses what races matters the most. Those races are the most important ones, obviously.

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

Learn to read! It's a skill.

I was talking about PARIS-ROUBAIX. Where Colbrelli has won 1 from 1. I'm not comparing him with Remco, but with Boonen, who is 4 from 1x. All the other races are not in the discussion when we talk about the greatest Paris-Roubaix of all times. Which is Colbrelli. According to your "logic" at least.

Btw, I'm not trying to best you, why would I. I realize forums are not there to "best people", do you? I fear not. Objective logical take? Sorry, even you yourself should realize that your take on Remco is highly subjective. And your friend, Logic, is often missing.

 

[Volderke]

The Almighty chooses what races matters the most. Those races are the most important ones, obviously.

I know your comment is tongue-in-cheek, but I must honestly say I like some to watch certain races more if riders I like to see racing are in those races...

I didn't like to watch LBL many times when the race was close until the last couple of K's / sprint to the finish.

On the other hand, I really like some smaller races in which Pogacar, Evenepoel, MvdP, WvA... show up and light up the race in an early stadium. Be it the 6th stage in Tirreno 2022 (Pogagar), the 5th stage in Tirreno 2021 or San Sebastian 2023. Some of those races (especially Tirreno 2021 stage 5) should never matter as much as the racing intensity suggests. But they went absolutely crazy and I love it.

 

[Bolder]

I think if Pog wants to race PR then he should - I wouldn't consider him a "pretender". I'm sure he was called that when he decided to race on cobbles and we see how good his results have been. Race prep is only compromised if he crashes but then again he crashed out in LBL and his TdF prep was compromised. Crashes can happen in any race or even in training. I don't see how his form is compromised should he race PR, a week after Flanders. He might have to juggle his schedule thereafter by doing only 1 of Amstel/Fleche and LBL.

If Pog enters PR, and finishes, you can almost guarantee he will be Top 10. He can handle 250 km on cobbles in bad weather.

Honestly, same with Remco, provided he practices all the pavé sectors. Those guys are head and shoulders above the rest of the GC riders right now when it comes to all terrain fitness. Will they beat, say, MvdP or Wout? Unlikely, all things being equal, but PR is such a race of luck, good or bad. Of course you need to be in position to take advantage of your good luck or competitors' bad luck, but I could easily see a frisky Pog riding away to create the move of the day, or Remco just riding people off his wheel...

 

[peterfin]

Learn to read! It's a skill.

I was talking about PARIS-ROUBAIX. Where Colbrelli has won 1 from 1. I'm not comparing him with Remco, but with Boonen, who is 4 from 1x. All the other races are not in the discussion when we talk about the greatest Paris-Roubaix of all times. Which is Colbrelli. According to your "logic" at least.

Btw, I'm not trying to best you, why would I. I realize forums are not there to "best people", do you? I fear not. Objective logical take? Sorry, even you yourself should realize that your take on Remco is highly subjective. And your friend, Logic, is often missing.

In all due respect but I fully agree with Logic and, no, his logic is not missing but it's based on math. Basically, it's statistics. To compare it with investing: selecting one stock and outperforming the market by a big margin is not such a big deal. There may be some experience to it but it largely comes down to luck. Luck decreases rapidly with the increase of stock picks and by the time you have about 5 stocks the yearly return starts to be that of market of most stock picks you make, unless you have knowledge that gives you an edge (what they call "alpha"). So Remco's result definitely show significant "alpha" above that of most other big achiever. There still might be some luck involved but the way in how he wins on average makes it not plauseable.

 

[Netserk]

In all due respect but I fully agree with Logic and, no, his logic is not missing but it's based on math. Basically, it's statistics. To compare it with investing: selecting one stock and outperforming the market by a big margin is not such a big deal. There may be some experience to it but it largely comes down to luck. Luck decreases rapidly with the increase of stock picks and by the time you have about 5 stocks the yearly return starts to be that of market of most stock picks you make, unless you have knowledge that gives you an edge (what they call "alpha"). So Remco's result definitely show significant "alpha" above that of most other big achiever. There still might be some luck involved but the way in how he wins on average makes it not plauseable.

He was clearly lucky to win Liège twice, as Pogi didn’t start or didn’t finish those two editions because of events outside of his control.

 

[Ulle97]

Fair enough lads, but I'm more interested in Remco's involvement the WCC and Vuelta rather than talking about the Spring Classics that are 9 months away.

It's like discussing Easter Eggs before Christmas 😆😆

 

[Riek s]

He was clearly lucky to win Liège twice, as Pogi didn’t start or didn’t finish those two editions because of events outside of his control.

Aah? I thought Pog was lucky in 2021 that Remco didn't ride it because of events outside of his control. Otherwise the sprint of 5 which he barely won would have been for second place . Or does the luck only go in one direction? Kind of a non sensical statement tbh. One can only compte who is riding, thats not luck, those are choices. That Pog crashed was indeed bad luck for him. Not sure if one should say its luck for the competition, because now the pressure, and everything else is also on a single rider... Luck goes in all directions. (for example AGR was extremely lucky for Pogacar, eventhough he was the strongest)

On the other hand, the debate about successes is a bit stupid as well. They are all riding WC RR, lets just enjoy it instead of using statistics to kind of wanting to prove who is the best. (especially in downsizing wins of person X while hailing those of person Y without the same context...)

 

[The fridge in the blue trees]

3 one day races this year. Versus 8 for Pogacer. Who was won 5 of them, finishing 4th and 3rd in the other 2 he finished. Plus crashing out of LBL. Making it all about the strike rate, 100% for Remco this year, when the sample is that small, read your own post. Flanders, Amstel, Flèche + Jaen (unimportant) and Slovenian national champion (was always going to be Pogacar or Mohoric, so not really all that valuable either) vs Liège, San Sebastian and Belgian NC? Pogacar's palmares is simply better in 2023 so far. Can change. So let's make it about the strike rate. Colbrelli of course is just used to show what kind of absurd results you can get if you make it about the strike rate. Strike rate for Remco clearly is less absurd, but his sample still too small to make it really really relevant.

Plus last year it was about the wins. Liège, San Sebastian, WC, Vuelta. Rider of the year, Remco, I agree. This year so far others have won more than Remco, LBL-San Sebastian is nice, career year for almost any rider, but others have more. So in the discussion about the best one day racer... now it's about the strike rate? And we've had how he won too as argument, long range attacks. It's not logical, it's choosing the parameters on how to judge something just to get the result you want, Remco is number 1 in this case. That's what's hilarious, how for some here no matter what we have to get Remco as really the best, results in 22, strike rate in one day races 23, bigger advantages in long range attacks than others being thrown in regularly as well.

Remco just has to ride more 1 day races... yes, his strike rate most likely will go down, but what's better? Winning Flanders-Liège, Belgian NC-San Sebastian, while finishing in the top 5 but not winning in Amstel and Flèche, or the 1 day season he's had now? 4 wins and 66% strike rate or 3 wins and 100%? The answer is easy, at least for those that don't engage in endless mental gymnastics just to have their favorite rider coming out on top. Let's see how he does in the WC, in Lombardia. If he wins, 5-5 is really impressive. If he doesn't, he's at 3-5 for the year. And all the other stats Logic is proudly throwing around get worse too. 2-4 in monuments, great, but maybe the strike rate is so good because he's only started in the races that seem to fit him best? (Although if Criquielion won Flanders, I see no reason Remco shouldn't be able to ride for the win either) Pogacar in LBL-Lombardia btw is 3-6... It's 3 times Milano Sanremo that diminishes his strike rate. The one that would be hard for Remco to win too. Cut Sanremo and Pogacar is at 4-8. Same strike rate, double the wins. No, this whole strike rate thing isn't logical, it's picking a stat to get the result you want.

 

[Riek s]

3 one day races this year. Versus 8 for Pogacer. Who was won 5 of them, finishing 4th and 3rd in the other 2 he finished. Plus crashing out of LBL. Making it all about the strike rate, 100% for Remco this year, when the sample is that small, read your own post. Flanders, Amstel, Flèche + Jaen (unimportant) and Slovenian national champion (was always going to be Pogacar or Mohoric, so not really all that valuable either) vs Liège, San Sebastian and Belgian NC? Pogacar's palmares is simply better in 2023 so far. Can change. So let's make it about the strike rate. Colbrelli of course is just used to show what kind of absurd results you can get if you make it about the strike rate. Strike rate for Remco clearly is less absurd, but his sample still too small to make it really really relevant.

Plus last year it was about the wins. Liège, San Sebastian, WC, Vuelta. Rider of the year, Remco, I agree. This year so far others have won more than Remco, LBL-San Sebastian is nice, career year for almost any rider, but others have more. So in the discussion about the best one day racer... now it's about the strike rate? And we've had how he won too as argument, long range attacks. It's not logical, it's choosing the parameters on how to judge something just to get the result you want, Remco is number 1 in this case. That's what's hilarious, how for some here no matter what we have to get Remco as really the best, results in 22, strike rate in one day races 23, bigger advantages in long range attacks than others being thrown in regularly as well.

Remco just has to ride more 1 day races... yes, his strike rate most likely will go down, but what's better? Winning Flanders-Liège, Belgian NC-San Sebastian, while finishing in the top 5 but not winning in Amstel and Flèche, or the 1 day season he's had now? 4 wins and 66% strike rate or 3 wins and 100%? The answer is easy, at least for those that don't engage in endless mental gymnastics just to have their favorite rider coming out on top. Let's see how he does in the WC, in Lombardia. If he wins, 5-5 is really impressive. If he doesn't, he's at 3-5 for the year. And all the other stats Logic is proudly throwing around get worse too. 2-4 in monuments, great, but maybe the strike rate is so good because he's only started in the races that seem to fit him best? (Although if Criquielion won Flanders, I see no reason Remco shouldn't be able to ride for the win either) Pogacar in LBL-Lombardia btw is 3-6... It's 3 times Milano Sanremo that diminishes his strike rate. The one that would be hard for Remco to win too. Cut Sanremo and Pogacar is at 4-8. Same strike rate, double the wins. No, this whole strike rate thing isn't logical, it's picking a stat to get the result you want.

Please, nobody here is arguing that Remco shouldn't ride more classics. The reason he has so low amount of classics is because of specific choices, this year the Giro, which he went out sick. When riding the giro you can't ride the spring classics. (he did LBL because he loves it, not because it was good for his Giro). He would have ended this year with the only monument left, Lombardia, that fits his shedule. This shedule was terrible for the classics and hopefully they don't repeat this next year).
Go back a few, dunno dozen pages by now i assume. Everyone here wants Remco to have more focus on the spring classics.

Ofcourse you can't win more when your first goal (giro) was DNF due to illness. Remco's year won't be as good as last year simply because of that. (There is nothing he can do to change that either). Also nobody is denying that. (if you read the Velo d'Or topic you would see almost no-one gives Remco the chance unless he wins everything that is left. which is near impossible). Lets hope next year he rides the spring classics. MSR/RVV/AGR/LBL. (AGR/LBL should suit him the most, MSR/RVV is a test to see if he likes it).

The statement he won his 5 last 200k plus races is a valid statement. All it means is that he is really good at long races. That doesn't mean he will win all of them, just that he excells at it and this is probably his cream and butter.
That this makes his winrate inflated, yeh i agree, and its non sensical to use these statistics on riders who are still <25years old. These are things one can compare at the end of their cycling life, but its also a side statistics. the biggest and foremost is what did you win. Also a reminder, since you use Pog as an example, Pog spring was amazing, brilliant, unreal. Its not even clear if he will do more of these springs, this could have been his unicorn year as well. (because as Netserk said, he was lucky that Remco/WVA/VDP didn't ride AGR or Roglic WP, or Julian not finding his ... legs to be at his previous level). (same applies for Remco as well). Every rider has their unicorn year, like when Gilbert did the tripple)


edit: woow seems i missed a page in this whole 'debate' .
Yeah drawing conclusions or who is the better rider based on those statistics is bs. At best it can give a pattern on how successful someone is based on what he participates. But that doesn't tell what he wins, which is the most important part. Winning races...

 

[Andre]

So far I believe that only three team mates have been chosen for Remco in La Vuelta: Knox, Vansevenant, and Vervaeke.

 

[Andre]

Logic got banned!!! I missed the fireworks again. Bring him back soon please.