Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Berniece]

Discussion was about GT and climbing in particular, but dont worrie Ive seen your projections in every race and how it goes so im sure you excuse me if i just take it for what it is at this point.

I’d really appreciate it if you stuck to the point and answered my question instead of posting links out of context tho. That would make it much easier to have a serious conversation rather than getting lost. But since it seems too much to ask for a straightforward answer to a simple question, maybe someone else will step up.

Oh in GT. No they aren't close at the moment. I think they will be, but definitely not at the moment.

 

[Berniece]

Question is that I genuinly wonder why everytime im in here why are people constantly talking about Evenepoel in relation to Pogacar? Thats what I wonder. The onus should clearly be on other riders first no? not Pogacar. I feel thats far more rational and objective or is that classified as hating?

The comparison was with Pogacar pre-2024. It was even about the comparison with Pogacar in 2022, they year Evenepoel won the Velo d'Or. I don't see an issue about comparing them during that period. The gap between them for GT's was much smaller back then.

 

[James M]

The comparison was with Pogacar pre-2024. It was even about the comparison with Pogacar in 2022, they year Evenepoel won the Velo d'Or. I don't see an issue about comparing them during that period. The gap between them for GT's was much smaller back then.

Yes, and yes but more in general terms, its always about Pogacar whenever Im here. I don’t get why hes the focus thats all and why I ask. When he has to surpass other riders first before Pogacar should constantly be the conversation.

Thats why Im asking cause maybe it is my skewed image of perception here and I’m wrong and missing something. But to me, it seems like Pogi is constantly positioned as the focal point in relation to Remco, and that just doesn’t feel rational.

 

[Berniece]

Yes, and yes but more in general terms, its always about Pogacar whenever Im here. I don’t get why hes the focus thats all and why I ask. When he has to surpass other riders first before Pogacar should constantly be the conversation.

Because he's being extremely private this season and there's nothing to talk about.

 

[Berflamand]

Yes, and yes but more in general terms, its always about Pogacar whenever Im here. I don’t get why hes the focus thats all and why I ask. When he has to surpass other riders first before Pogacar should constantly be the conversation.

Thats why Im asking cause maybe it is my skewed image of perception here and I’m wrong and missing something. But to me, it seems like Pogacar is constantly positioned as the focal point in relation to Remco, and that just doesn’t feel rational.

I guess you missed a few pages with the Cunego comparison.

All jokes aside, Pogacar right now is THE reference in cycling. I think it makes sense that all current world class cyclists are compared to/judged in relation to Pogacar. It makes sense for Vingegaard (in GT's and stage races), it makes sense for Van der Poel (in cobbled classics) and imo it definitely also makes sense for Evenepoel.

They all want to be the best and thus they have to beat the best, and right now that is Pogacar.

Sure, if you limit it to GT's, there are other riders in the mix and it's definitely not a given that Remco beats everyone not named Pogacar or Vingegaard. But overall, who do you think should be the focal point in relation to Remco?

If we take the so called 'Big 6' minus Pogacar and Evenepoel:

• Vingegaard? Sure we can compare him with Vingegaard but I think we're quickly running out of interesting discussion points. The gap in stage racing/GT's (favoring Vingegaard) is clear while the gap in one day races/TT's (favoring Remco) is equally clear.
• Van der Poel? I don't think it makes much sense to compare him with Van der Poel because their paths have barely crossed (except for Championships). I do hope however that Remco rides some cobbled classics next year so this might change.
• Roglic? They've had some good battles in the past and Roglic definitely has been a focal point in relation to Remco. There's even a Remco vs Roglic thread. However it does seem like their paths are not crossing that much anymore recently and now that they're going to be teammates there's not much rivalry anymore.
• Van Aert? Same as for Van der Poel I guess.

 

[peterfin]

Yes, and yes but more in general terms, its always about Pogacar whenever Im here. I don’t get why hes the focus thats all and why I ask. When he has to surpass other riders first before Pogacar should constantly be the conversation.

Thats why Im asking cause maybe it is my skewed image of perception here and I’m wrong and missing something. But to me, it seems like Pogi is constantly positioned as the focal point in relation to Remco, and that just doesn’t feel rational.

If you check the past discussions you will see that it always starts when somebody (new) jumps in and start comparing him with Pogacar and giving him (and us) an opinion why he is not that good in comparison to Pogacar and should do better. As the regulars here follow Remco since years its only normal that we correct any claims that are made that don't fit the data. We are not asking for this continuous debate - it would be great if we could focus more on Remco, his schedule, his new team etc - but apparantly people like it and are of course free to do so.

 

[AmRacer]

If you check the past discussions you will see that it always starts when somebody (new) jumps in and start comparing him with Pogacar and giving him (and us) an opinion why he is not that good in comparison to Pogacar and should do better. As the regulars here follow Remco since years its only normal that we correct any claims that are made that don't fit the data. We are not asking for this continuous debate - it would be great if we could focus more on Remco, his schedule, his new team etc - but apparantly people like it and are of course free to do so.

It's just the thingy with 'don't fit the 'data' thing and correct.
Some always compare with Pogi and what could be if not the one thing or the other happened.

 

[Oldman]

What are you even talking about. The segment was during a MTF stage after a week of racing in Avenir. They didn't break his time by seconds but by over a minute on a 20 minute segment. Nowhere did i state Pogacar wouldn't have done better in similar conditions as these guys or that Avenir is as challenging as TDF, but i damn well know they wouldn't beat any of his climbing times of 2024 or 2025 by that much under any circumstances.

I'm talking about comparisons of two separate races, years apart. The efforts before the compared stage are totally different strategically and expended effort in prior stages render the comparison irrelevant. That you then extrapolate that Tadej's climbing is that much better in 24 and 25 under some sort of veil training is not science. It's your opinion and you're welcome to it. If Tadej and his staff want to respond and confirm that microscopic 20 minutes define his talent at that time I'd listen to them.
Is he better now? Yes. It's likely due to alot of factors but the constant hammering about his improvement is disingenuous.

 

[peterfin]

It's just the thingy with 'don't fit the 'data' thing and correct.
Some always compare with Pogi and what could be if not the one thing or the other happened.

And other just dismiss the data

 

[AmRacer]

And other just dismiss the data

And others interpret the data so it fits their narrative.

 

[red_flanders]

Yes, and yes but more in general terms, its always about Pogacar whenever Im here. I don’t get why hes the focus thats all and why I ask. When he has to surpass other riders first before Pogacar should constantly be the conversation.

Thats why Im asking cause maybe it is my skewed image of perception here and I’m wrong and missing something. But to me, it seems like Pogi is constantly positioned as the focal point in relation to Remco, and that just doesn’t feel rational.

Do feel like maybe you play a part in making it about Pogacar? Does saying he has to "surpass other riders" before he's compared to the best rider of the generation not seem...kind of unrealistic? Does framing the discussion the way you do not contribute to a debate about Remco vs Pogacar? Remco is obviously a top rider and obviously gunning for wins in races where Pogacar also is gunning for the win.

Seems normal.

Now I'll grant you that this thread is weirdly filled with superfans of certain riders constantly comparing that rider to Remco. Pogacar fans are really NOT the top of that list. But the Remco effect on superfans of other riders...is fairly bizarre.

EDIT: By "superfans" I mean fans who seem to primarily, passionately, and maybe unreasonably focus on one particular rider across threads. If there's a better way of saying that, I'm all ears.

 

[peterfin]

And others interpret the data so it fits their narrative.

Exactly. They should take the data at face value.

 

[AmRacer]

Exactly. They should take the data at face value.

Agree.

 

[Logic-is-your-friend]

I'm talking about comparisons of two separate races, years apart. The efforts before the compared stage are totally different strategically and expended effort in prior stages render the comparison irrelevant. That you then extrapolate that Tadej's climbing is that much better in 24 and 25 under some sort of veil training is not science. It's your opinion and you're welcome to it. If Tadej and his staff want to respond and confirm that microscopic 20 minutes define his talent at that time I'd listen to them.
Is he better now? Yes. It's likely due to alot of factors but the constant hammering about his improvement is disingenuous.

No you were talking about a "TTT" as if there was a team pulling on that sector (there wasn't, all domestiques had gone overboard) and as if it was a fresh effort (it wasn't it was the MTF of the queen stage after 1 week of Avenir).
As previously stated, i am well aware the TDF is not Avenir but if you want to talk about disingenuous, then your post takes the cake. When 18 and 19 year old riders do over a minute better on a 20 minute segment, and you want to pretend Pogacar was either half-assing it during the TDF or was that knackered because of fatigue (which in itself would be quite the statement that points to how much he improved since then, as he now casually blows the entire peloton to bits, finishes solo with minutes advance and looks like he just took a beauty nap) or that those 18 and 19 year olds would somehow beat his time today by such a significant margin, even despite circumstances being easier during Avenir, now THAT is disingenuous.

 

[Peyroteo94]

Discussion was about GT and climbing in particular, but dont worrie Ive seen your projections in every race and how it goes so im sure you excuse me if i just take it for what it is at this point.

I’d really appreciate it if you stuck to the point and answered my question instead of posting links out of context tho. That would make it much easier to have a serious conversation rather than getting lost. But since it seems too much to ask for a straightforward answer to a simple question, maybe someone else will step up.

They are not close in classics too (until this moment), don't be afraid to say that.
Yes, they were close in AGR but Skjelmose won it. Is it reasonable to say Skjelmose is close to Pogacar in classics? Of course not. We need consistency in results. So let's take a look in the last 5 classics where Pogi and Remco clashed:

Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2025 One day race results

Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2025 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Giulio Ciccone and Ben Healy.

www.procyclingstats.com

La Flèche Wallonne 2025 One day race results

La Flèche Wallonne 2025 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Kévin Vauquelin and Thomas Pidcock.

www.procyclingstats.com

Amstel Gold Race 2025 One day race results

Amstel Gold Race 2025 was won by Mattias Skjelmose before Tadej PogaÄar and Remco Evenepoel.

www.procyclingstats.com

Il Lombardia 2024 One day race results

Il Lombardia 2024 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Remco Evenepoel and Giulio Ciccone.

www.procyclingstats.com

Giro dell'Emilia 2024 One day race results

Giro dell'Emilia 2024 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Thomas Pidcock and Davide Piganzoli.

www.procyclingstats.com

5 H2H. Pogacar destroyed Remco 4 out 5 times. In the other one, he beated Remco in a sprint despite losing to Skjelmose.

Where are they close???

 

[AmRacer]

They are not close in classics too (until this moment), don't be afraid to say that.
Yes, they were close in AGR but Skjelmose won it. Is it reasonable to say Skjelmose is close to Pogacar in classics? Of course not. We need consistency in results. So let's take a look in the last 5 classics where Pogi and Remco clashed:

Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2025 One day race results

Liège-Bastogne-Liège 2025 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Giulio Ciccone and Ben Healy.

www.procyclingstats.com

La Flèche Wallonne 2025 One day race results

La Flèche Wallonne 2025 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Kévin Vauquelin and Thomas Pidcock.

www.procyclingstats.com

Amstel Gold Race 2025 One day race results

Amstel Gold Race 2025 was won by Mattias Skjelmose before Tadej PogaÄar and Remco Evenepoel.

www.procyclingstats.com

Il Lombardia 2024 One day race results

Il Lombardia 2024 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Remco Evenepoel and Giulio Ciccone.

www.procyclingstats.com

Giro dell'Emilia 2024 One day race results

Giro dell'Emilia 2024 was won by Tadej PogaÄar before Thomas Pidcock and Davide Piganzoli.

www.procyclingstats.com

5 H2H. Pogacar destroyed Remco 4 out 5 times. In the other one, he beated Remco in a sprint despite losing to Skjelmose.

Where are they close???

Add Worlds to your list

 

[Peyroteo94]

Add Worlds to your list

I said last 5 classics.

 

[AmRacer]

I said last 5 classics.

H2H where one of them won and both finished. Remco has won 4 ITT and Worlds. Cannot count Pogi's wins, 😁including GC.

 

[houtdffan]

if the rumors about next year's tour are correct that there not be a single flat ITT, I see Remco not bothering to show up. It would be a waste of his time.

Do the giro instead, where they still know what a TT is

 

[Berniece]

Yes, they were close in AGR but Skjelmose won it. Is it reasonable to say Skjelmose is close to Pogacar in classics?

Was it Skjelmose that closed that gap, or was it Skjelmose that said it was Evenepoel that closed that gap?

 

[Berniece]

Interview with Klaas Lodewyck about Evenepoel, his training and what to expect of him. Some parts that I found interesting:

"He has had a good time in Livigno, where he mainly worked at his base. Many trainings without specific intervals, more based on his feeling."

"A year ago he didn't feel great at the start of Tour of Britain, now he feels fresher"

"After the Tour of Britain, Evenepoel goes to Calpe for a few days to finish some sturdy training sessions. Then he must be ready for his remaining goals: the World Cup in Rwanda and the European Championship in France."

Remco Evenepoel hervat zonder druk in Groot-Brittannië: “Belangrijkste is om te vertrekken met goed gevoel”

Zo’n anderhalve maand na zijn pijnlijke opgave in de Tour is Remco Evenepoel (25) weer aan koersen toe. In de Tour of Britain gaat hij op zoek naar een goed gevoel met het oog op het WK en het EK, dé doelen van zijn seizoensslot. “Kunnen we daar een mooi resultaat aan koppelen, zoveel te beter.”

www.hln.be

 

[Oldman]

No you were talking about a "TTT" as if there was a team pulling on that sector (there wasn't, all domestiques had gone overboard) and as if it was a fresh effort (it wasn't it was the MTF of the queen stage after 1 week of Avenir).
As previously stated, i am well aware the TDF is not Avenir but if you want to talk about disingenuous, then your post takes the cake. When 18 and 19 year old riders do over a minute better on a 20 minute segment, and you want to pretend Pogacar was either half-assing it during the TDF or was that knackered because of fatigue (which in itself would be quite the statement that points to how much he improved since then, as he now casually blows the entire peloton to bits, finishes solo with minutes advance and looks like he just took a beauty nap) or that those 18 and 19 year olds would somehow beat his time today by such a significant margin, even despite circumstances being easier during Avenir, now THAT is disingenuous.

Here's the reality as I can find it:
2025 Tour l'Avenir Stage 5 to Tignes:
Won: Jarno Widar, Sextas 2nd and 3 others within 8 seconds & overall time of 3:34:48
Distance: 121 km
Vertical: 3,864 meters

2021 Tour Stage 18 to Col De Portet:
Won: Tadej Pogacar, Jonas Vindegaard 3 seconds behind & overall time of 3:33:45
Distance: 178.4 km
Vertical: 4,375 meters

So how are these two efforts remotely comparable? Tadej and Jonas in a contentious stage 18, 57km longer, more vertical of 511 and an overall time of a minute faster are pretty much what my of incomparable events.

And from those disparate races you suggest that Pogacar in 2021 is somehow related to Pogacar 2025 and the new kids are better...

 

[peterfin]

"He has had a good time in Livigno, where he mainly worked at his base. Many trainings without specific intervals, more based on his feeling."

That's interesting. In principle, the trainer should know how to train him to maximize his output. It looks like he doesn't trust the procedure anymore and has already parted ways and decided to just do what feels right to him.

 

[AmRacer]

"He has had a good time in Livigno, where he mainly worked at his base. Many trainings without specific intervals, more based on his feeling."

That's interesting. In principle, the trainer should know how to train him to maximize his output. It looks like he doesn't trust the procedure anymore and has already parted ways and decided to just do what feels right to him.

He was dead empty when he withdrew from the Tour. Then he rested for a week or two. He lacked his winter base training so what else could he do at altitude?

 

[peterfin]

He was dead empty when he withdrew from the Tour. Then he rested for a week or two. He lacked his winter base training so what else could he do at altitude?

Ok but you would expect that he maximizes his training at altitude, taking in to account his level.