Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[houtdffan]

If:

1. Pogi
2. Vingegaard
3. Evenepoel
4. Rogla
5. Almeida
6. Lipowitz
7. Yates/Landa/Carapaz

Then the gap from 1-3 may very well be greater than from 3-7 when it comes to performances on HC MTFs.

we saw peak Pog in 2024

Remco was closer to Pog than Almieda was in 4th. Almeida was more than 10 minutes behind, dropped on every mountain stage by Remco

 

[Netserk]

Remco was closer to Pog than Almieda was in 4th.

Not climbing, see the previous post of mine.

 

[houtdffan]

Not climbing, see the previous post of mine.

if not climbing then where did Remco take 10 mins during that tour?

There was a single 25 km ITT.

He outclimbed Almeida by a mile

 

[Netserk]

if not climbing then where did Remco take 10 mins during that tour?

There was a single 25 km ITT.

He outclimbed Almeida by a mile

And Pogi outclimbed Evenepoel by two miles.

 

[Berniece]

And Pogi outclimbed Evenepoel by two miles.

But why only look at HC mountain though? He took time on other mountains too

 

[Red Rick]

Dodged his best bet at beating Pogacar in an MTT today.

 

[Netserk]

But why only look at HC mountain though? He took time on other mountains too

Because it's the best measure of their physical capacity to climb.

 

[Berniece]

Because it's the best measure of their physical capacity to climb.

You are picking what fits your narrative. I think you should include these other stages too. I added an extra row gap difference. This is the difference between the difference of Pogacar/Evenepoel and Evenepoel/Almeida. It comes down to Evenpoel being indeed closer to Almeida during TDF '24, than Evenepoel was to Pogacar. By a mere 25 seconds, so nothings earth shattering like you guys are trying to make it look. Evenepoel was still much better in the mountains than Almeida, the gap isn't that far from the gap to Pogacar.

Rider	4	11	14	15	17	19	20
Pogi	1st	2nd	1st	1st	27nd	1st	1st
Evenepoel	+35''	+25''	+1'10"	+2'51"	-10''	+1'42"	+0'53"
Almeida	+53''	+1'49''	+1'31"	+4'43"	+2'03''	+2'00"	+1'28"
Cumulative Gap difference	+17''	-42''	+7''	+1'06''	-1'17''	+7''	+25''

 

[AmRacer]

You are picking what fits your narrative. I think you should include these other stages too. I added an extra row gap difference. This is the difference between the difference of Pogacar/Evenepoel and Evenepoel/Almeida. It comes down to Evenpoel being indeed closer to Almeida during TDF '24, than Evenepoel was to Pogacar. By a mere 25 seconds, so nothings earth shattering like you guys are trying to make it look. Evenepoel was still much better in the mountains than Almeida, the gap isn't that far from the gap to Pogacar.

Rider	4	11	14	15	17	19	20
Pogi	1st	2nd	1st	1st	27nd	1st	1st
Evenepoel	+35''	+25''	+1'10"	+2'51"	-10''	+1'42"	+0'53"
Almeida	+53''	+1'49''	+1'31"	+4'43"	+2'03''	+2'00"	+1'28"
Cumulative Gap difference	+17''	-42''	+7''	+1'06''	-1'17''	+7''	+25''

Almeida 2025 >> Almeida 2024

 

[Netserk]

You are picking what fits your narrative. I think you should include these other stages too. I added an extra row gap difference. This is the difference between the difference of Pogacar/Evenepoel and Evenepoel/Almeida. It comes down to Evenpoel being indeed closer to Almeida during TDF '24, than Evenepoel was to Pogacar. By a mere 25 seconds, so nothings earth shattering like you guys are trying to make it look. Evenepoel was still much better in the mountains than Almeida, the gap isn't that far from the gap to Pogacar.

Rider	4	11	14	15	17	19	20
Pogi	1st	2nd	1st	1st	27nd	1st	1st
Evenepoel	+35''	+25''	+1'10"	+2'51"	-10''	+1'42"	+0'53"
Almeida	+53''	+1'49''	+1'31"	+4'43"	+2'03''	+2'00"	+1'28"
Cumulative Gap difference	+17''	-42''	+7''	+1'06''	-1'17''	+7''	+25''

I'm addressing the actual question. RR spoke of climbing lvl.

Almeida was also a helper, and he only directly raced against Landa, not Evenepoel. So on stage 17 he didn't react at all to the three in front, but passively marked the others. That's not a good measure of climbing ability.

All three raced to the top as fast as they could on the MTFs. While Almeida sometimes had to pull a bit, it was mostly a clean comparison. Pulling in the headwind on the lower slopes of Galibier was not.

Evenepoel is a better rider and better GC rider than Almeida, but when assessing the narrow question of climbing ability, you need to isolate the physiological performances on climbs from the rest.

 

[Cookster15]

@Peyroteo94 , bringing your post here so we don't sidetrack the Pogacar thread:

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1 - Del Toro is 1.80, 3 cm taller than Pogacar. So I wouldn't call him tall (Armstrong, Froome, Basso were dominant climbers in their prime and they are tall). I believe Del Toro looks more like a climber and he is more natural in the mountains than Remco. It's early to tell right now, but next year we will have an answer for sure.

2 - Are we forgetting 2025 when looking to Remco's climbing ability? I know he is better than what he showed but he didn't show a single (good) performance in the mountains. Where were those watts?

On #1:- Climbing is about sustained watts per kilo. It doesn't care about what we think a climber should look like.

On #2:- No I haven't forgotten 2025. But I think this year was an anomaly. Remco showed enough in 2024 - in the Tour. That level doesn't disappear it must be something to do with his preparation or mental side this year? It can't be his age.

 

[Berniece]

@Peyroteo94 , bringing your post here so we don't sidetrack the Pogacar thread:

Page 1619 - Teams & Riders - Tadej Pogačar discussion thread

Page 1619 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.

forum.cyclingnews.com

On #1:- Climbing is about sustained watts per kilo. It doesn't care about what we think a climber should look like.

On #2:- No I haven't forgotten 2025. But I think this year was an anomaly. Remco showed enough in 2024 - in the Tour. That level doesn't disappear it must be something to do with his preparation or mental side this year? It can't be his age.

He also showed it during UEC and Lombardia

 

[Cycling111]

we saw peak Pog in 2024

Remco was closer to Pog than Almieda was in 4th. Almeida was more than 10 minutes behind, dropped on every mountain stage by Remco

And however, Remco finished the Tour at the same distance that Daniel Felipe Martinez at the Giro.

In reality, neither of them has ever come close to Pogacar in a mountain stage. In stage races, Remco has always been significantly inferior to Pogacar ia stage races. We can go back to the first Tirreno Adriatico where they met. Never, not even before 2024, has Remco near Pogacar in a mountain stage, so think otherwise is fictitious.

Today, it's more likely that Almeida will finish one place behind Remco in the Tour, already happened,than that Remco will finish second in the Tour (without any accidents involving the first two).

Remco would have had to have been far superior in the Giro in 2023, until his retirement, to be considered even remotely close to Vingegaard and Pogacar in 2023. At no stage was it even clear that this could happen. Pogacar and Vingegaard would have swept that Giro from the first week. Remco still hasn't demonstrated consistency in mountain stages. Only the 2024 Tour de France; the Vuelta is a much lighter route than the other two GTs. He needs to prove that it wasn't a one-Tour affair, as has already happened to many riders.In that sense, Almeida is consistent; he's inferior, but at his level, he's consistent in the mountains. He's a reliable rider; he probably won't win a GT, but he'll rarely perform badly.

And Remco continues to have this inconsistency problem even in one-week races. Incredibly, he still hasn't won any of the seven major races.

But as I'm saying, Almeida's chances of a second place in the Tour were highly overestimated. He would have been closer to Lipowitz than to Vingegaard.

 

[KoopaCycling]

There was exactly 1 punchy stage before Remco DNF due to Covid.
He finished in the same time as Almeida, losing 14 sec to Roglic, Geoghan Hart and Thomas.

Odds are he was already ill due to combo of rain & sickness already spreading in the peloton. As he was clearly ill during the TT a day later. No way Pogacar or Vingegaard would have wrapped up the giro on flat stages that saw lots of rain.

Vingegaard would have done nothing, but stay in the wheel on this stage (stage 8). Hard to say if Pogacar from 2023 would have taken more than 15 sec on that punchy climb. But they also would not have taken the time that Remco took on stage 1.

I will give that Pogacar & possible Vingegaard (due to Visma team protection) would not have crashed twice on stage 5.
That's about it.

 

[Red Rick]

He also showed it during UEC and Lombardia

Not dropping the likes of Storer, Seixas and Scaroni does not make a very compelling case for being 2024 TdF level.

 

[KoopaCycling]

Not dropping the likes of Storer, Seixas and Scaroni does not make a very compelling case for being 2024 TdF level.

Did you see Del Toro his level, and Seixas his level at the end of this season?

 

[Berniece]

Not dropping the likes of Storer, Seixas and Scaroni does not make a very compelling case for being 2024 TdF level.

Because he was at Ardennes weight, which I would think makes it even more impressive

 

[Jan the Man]

Because he was at Ardennes weight, which I would think makes it even more impressive

I don’t think extrapolating one day form for any rider is that instructive as to how they perform in GTs - Remco has finished 3rd in Tour and won the Vuelta that’s the best evidence of his ability to challenge the Tour.

To be closer to Pog he needs to hope for a more balance route in terms of an increase in flattish TT kilometres, and increase his durability in the high mountains.

 

[Berniece]

I don’t think extrapolating one day form for any rider is that instructive as to how they perform in GTs - Remco has finished 3rd in Tour and won the Vuelta that’s the best evidence of his ability to challenge the Tour.

To be closer to Pog he needs to hope for a more balance route in terms of an increase in flattish TT kilometres, and increase his durability in the high mountains.

Someone said nothing in this season showed he could climb like in TDF '24. I disagree, that's all.

 

[KoopaCycling]

It's funny how remco needs to prove himself towards riders he has already beaten plenty in the past. And not the other way around.

 

[Jan the Man]

It's funny how remco needs to prove himself towards riders he has already beaten plenty in the past. And not the other way around.

Who does he have to prove himself to- Pog and Vignegaard in grand tours?

As he himself has said at the end of the year he has to make a jump again in one day races to match Pog (in terms of the 2-5 minute efforts) - personally I think that is probably more likely than matching Pog in the mountains in a GT at least in the short term- but will be exciting to see his progress with a new team and having an uninterrupted winter training as a base would be a good starting point!