Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread

[Berniece]

Why should that always be the excuse for not beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard.

It’s true, he shouldn’t need them, it makes it easier though

 

[peterfin]

Why should that always be the excuse for not beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard.

It's not an excuse but it is definitely easier for him to win with a decent TT, especially when he is not in his top shape yet. To frame it different: he has no excuse beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard in a one week race with a decent TT.

 

[YavorD]

It's not an excuse but it is definitely easier for him to win with a decent TT, especially when he is not in his top shape yet. To frame it different: he has no excuse beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard in a one week race with a decent TT.

But how much is a "decent TT" in one week races nowadays?
GT's, except for the Giro has less than 40 kilometres (flat..ish) TT, so 20 should be considered decent for the one week stage races.

 

[Netserk]

But how much is a "decent TT" in one week races nowadays?
GT's, except for the Giro has less than 40 kilometres (flat..ish) TT, so 20 should be considered decent for the one week stage races.

Unfortunately, decent is 10-15 km. 25+ should be the norm though.

 

[Berniece]

Unfortunately, decent is 10-15 km. 25+ should be the norm though.

For a 1 week race? Don't you think that might put the race on lock too much?

 

[Netserk]

For a 1 week race? Don't you think that might put the race on lock too much?

No. It's much easier to make differences in hard stages compared to a decade or two ago when TTs were longer.

 

[Berniece]

No. It's much easier to make differences in hard stages compared to a decade or two ago when TTs were longer.

But then you need actual hard stages too, which is a good thing. If you would have a course like Tirreno this year, it would be overkill to have such a long ITT.

 

[Eddy Evenepoel]

But then you need actual hard stages too, which is a good thing. If you would have a course like Tirreno this year, it would be overkill to have such a long ITT.

Atleast in races like Dauphine, Romandie, Catalunya, Suisse it isn’t that uncommon to see pretty hard mountain stages. Then with Tirreno, Itulzia and Paris-Nice it might be a bit harder, but you can make really hard hilly or medium mountain stages as well.

 

[Netserk]

Had the TTT in PN been an ITT this year, I think that would be perfectly fine.

 

[AlpRaid]

For a 1 week race? Don't you think that might put the race on lock too much?

But why is the emphasis always on the rouleur having to become a better climber and never the climber having to train their ITT any more?

There was a time when the purer climbers were constantly also forced/trying to improve their ITT. Now there is literally no motivation to do that.

Also, in Merckx’s day one week stage races pretty much always had a real ITT. Not 60kms don’t get me wrong, but also not something that was basically equivalent to just a prologue, if they have a TT at all that is.

It’s about balance that’s all. And it has now been a number of years where GC cycling has been reduced to ONLY a watts/kg battle up steeper and steeper climbs.

 

[KoopaCycling]

remco was 2nd best climber at UAE 23 but he would have won there even without the echelon cause of the TTT on stage 2. He won Algarve 22 cause of TT. He was climbing more or less equally with the other favourites but his TT set him apart.
Same for Algarve 24. Without the TT Martinez probably would have won there. So there have been occassions where evenepoel was not at his very best but good enough to more or less keep pace with the other favourites in the mountains, then cruised to victory in the TT.

I can imagine something similar happen in future GC against the likes of Seixas, Del Toro.

Very good post AlpRaid. I will say that pure climbers don't exist as much anymore. Most GC riders can usually also ride a decent TT these days. Though there remain exceptions. (Uitdebroecks, widar, Gall).

I think much will depend on how good Seixas will become versus Vauquelin. If Vauquelin can remain competitive with Seixas, we might see some different french GC stage races.

 

[rghysens]

But how much is a "decent TT" in one week races nowadays?
GT's, except for the Giro has less than 40 kilometres (flat..ish) TT, so 20 should be considered decent for the one week stage races.

In my opinion: for all of the main week long stage races minus Dauphiné and Switzerland: 20-25km, for Dauphiné and Switzerland: 40-45km
For GT's: around 100km

 

[AlpRaid]

I will say that pure climbers don't exist as much anymore. Most GC riders can usually also ride a decent TT these days. Though there remain exceptions. (Uitdebroecks, widar, Gall)

I would suggest that over time what we consider a GC rider has changed BECAUSE of the ITT-less routes, making some riders GC riders who wouldn’t be before: Carapaz, Yateses, Aru, Landa, Onley, etc. All great riders, but in another era, not really contenders. (It’s similar to how clinic-fueled performances remain embedded in many peoples minds as a form of “truth” when really they are not).

True GC riders could always climb. Sure there were always blips like Moser, but he only won the Giro when the scales were tipped.

So adding more ITT would not change the very top of the hierarchy. Pog would still win, Vingo likely second, tho Remco might come closer to second with a couple of longish flatter TTs. No he would not gain much on Pog, but recently he has put a fair amount of time into Vingo. Beating him in GC, probably not, closer more than likely.

After those three, you would have Rog, Lipo, and then definitely del toro, Ayuso, seixas, Almeida who are all strong at both but perhaps a touch weaker in one.

Again it’s about finding a balance. I don’t expect all fans to agree exactly on how many ITT kms should be in, but suffice it to say that right now there is not enough, while in Indurain or Hinault’s time perhaps there was too much.

In fact, I would suggest Hinault would not have the palmares he has if he competed on today’s routes. He may have been even more climbing-challenged as a GC rider than Remco. His 1978 breakthrough came due to his dominance in ITTs over Zoetemelk who was arguably the better climber.

 

[Netserk]

The 2010 Dauphiné was won in the ITT. Brajkovič gained 1'41" over ~55 km of ITT on Contador, and he managed to stay with him on the 4(!) mountain stages afterwards.

If that were to be the route next year, the best climber would almost certainly win, as we today see significant differences in such mountain stages.

 

[houtdffan]

But why is the emphasis always on the rouleur having to become a better climber and never the climber having to train their ITT any more?

There was a time when the purer climbers were constantly also forced/trying to improve their ITT. Now there is literally no motivation to do that.

Also, in Merckx’s day one week stage races pretty much always had a real ITT. Not 60kms don’t get me wrong, but also not something that was basically equivalent to just a prologue, if they have a TT at all that is.

It’s about balance that’s all. And it has now been a number of years where GC cycling has been reduced to ONLY a watts/kg battle up steeper and steeper climbs.

agreed.

It used to be climbers had to defend in the TTs

Today, Pantani's would be unbeatable (or a Pantani who could compete with the aliens on the climbs)

 

[AmRacer]

It's not an excuse but it is definitely easier for him to win with a decent TT, especially when he is not in his top shape yet. To frame it different: he has no excuse beating everyone minus Pogacar and Vingegaard in a one week race with a decent TT.

No riders are in top shape for the one-weeks

 

[hayneplane]

Everyone, specialized is legally not allowed to share tests and results with Bora that were previously accomplished for QS.

This is likely the main reason for the two days of testing, so Bora themselves have the data and can suggest tweaks etc. if they think they have any.

Not sure we should be expecting massive or even important changes in terms of his TT position. Maybe Dan Bingham might have some thoughts, but I think many here are reading too much into tests that literally HAD to be done so Bora had data to work with.

Would there be anything anyone could feasibly do to stop Remco himself from informing Bora of the data. He strikes me as the kind of person who would have taken such close attention that he would be well aware of his own numbers.

 

[Oldman]

Would there be anything anyone could feasibly do to stop Remco himself from informing Bora of the data. He strikes me as the kind of person who would have taken such close attention that he would be well aware of his own numbers.

It's probably not that complicated. Bora could've negotiated for what QS had if it were relevant when buying out Remco's contract. Specialized would have most rights, I'd presume, as they were the bike designer/ sponsor and likely oversaw testing results.
In practice Remco would know every measurement, the equipment and his position which is what counts most. They're going to build a new bike with same sponsor; so it'll be an evolution from what he rode. The sponsor wants the success and who at QS is an equal TT'er that would benefit from Remco being slower?
Caveat: who better than Red Bull's F1 engineers to consult on this anyway?