The revenge of Rasmussen ...

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Lanark said:
Afaik Freire is never mentioned or even hinted at in these stories. Anyway, it's pretty obvious that in 2007/2008 wanted to ever repeat a Rasmussen-drama again, and I don't doubt that at least Knebel was genuine in his intent to make the team clean. Whether you belief they actually succeeded is another thing.


What?
Ignore bavarianrider, he can't read, nor think, and he's a bigot
 
May 26, 2009
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Lanark said:
Afaik Freire is never mentioned or even hinted at in these stories. Anyway, it's pretty obvious that in 2007/2008 wanted to ever repeat a Rasmussen-drama again, and I don't doubt that at least Knebel was genuine in his intent to make the team clean. Whether you belief they actually succeeded is another thing.
I'm very hesitant about that.

1. They kept Leinders
2. They kept Breukink
3. They kept Erik dekker
4. They kept Mencov.

At least the first two clearly had to go if you want a clean team. It was already clear they were involved in the Rasmussen fraud. Knebel and Rabo might have missed earlier trangressions, but Leinders/Breukink were known frauds (see the earlier court decision). It should have been enough to give them a handshake, some cash and a kick out of the door.

It's what makes me really anxious about Gesink/Mollema. The clean up in 2008 wasn't very thorough. Chances of them being coached towards the dark side certainly are there. I have some hope, but if I look at the people involved it's not looking pretty.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Bavarianrider said:
So they had systematic team doping until 2012.:eek:
Way to go dutchies!:rolleyes:
But what's really the big logical consequnce out of this.
If Rabobank had such a programm all the way till 2012, we must assume that surely they were not alone.
Yes, there is some idiot at a French language press service who mistranslated the article. In fact the article explicitly states that there was a zero tolerance policy at Rabobank after the Rasmussen-Tour.

It's sad, how the moronic press makes stories like these worse. The new generation of Dutch riders is now suspect based on a translation error (although I don't know how you can mistranslate 'zero tolerance', those are even the words used in Dutch).

Franklin said:
I'm very hesitant about that.

1. They kept Leinders
2. They kept Breukink
3. They kept Erik dekker
4. They kept Mencov.

At least the first two clearly had to go if you want a clean team. It was already clear they were involved in the Rasmussen fraud. Knebel and Rabo might have missed earlier trangressions, but Leinders/Breukink were known frauds (see the earlier court decision). It should have been enough to give them a handshake, some cash and a kick out of the door.
What earlier court decision? Nothing has been proven about Leinders, even until now. Knebel couldn't just sack him, he was just let go at the first opportunity (i.e. at the end of his contract).

It's what makes me really anxious about Gesink/Mollema. The clean up in 2008 wasn't very thorough. Chances of them being coached towards the dark side certainly are there. I have some hope, but if I look at the people involved it's not looking pretty.
The team currently probably has the least amount of doping related names of any team.
 
Fearless Greg Lemond said:
He was clean as hell when he had those Supranatural years...

These guys have no conscience. Let's ask dear old Erik Dekker what he thought at the time of the sudden retirement of Edwig van Hooydonck.
Van Hooydonck is regarded as clean. A victim of the EPO generation.
 
May 26, 2009
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theyoungest said:
Y
What earlier court decision? Nothing has been proven about Leinders, even until now. Knebel couldn't just sack him, he was just let go at the first opportunity (i.e. at the end of his contract).
.
You missed the first iteration of Rasmussen versus Rabo which Rasmussen won in summer 2008. *

The Management team was deemed accomplice of whereabouts fraud by the judge* and that meant that Rasmussen deserved his pay. Check the Leinders thread (4th page I think, my post with the appropriate links and case number). Note that this was about pay against Rabo cycling and that the judge could not sentence the Management Team.

Leinders, de Rooij and Breukink were the three of that Management team.

Yet in the Giro 2009 Leinders was still at the Giro (which Mencov won...).


* Having read at least part of the evidence it seems extremely difficult not to think that Knebel was already aware of the trouble of his MT's behavior. At least during the trial and most likely before this would have come up.

theyoungest said:
The team currently probably has the least amount of doping related names of any team.
And until late this year also a staff which has been dirty to the core. USPS also was a clean team if we look at the riders... they only got caught when at another team. We know better now.

Sorry, but when a team has a management so deeply and utterly corrupted I think we can't believe at face value that these young guys are uncorrupted.
 
Apr 20, 2012
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the asian said:
Van Hooydonck is regarded as clean. A victim of the EPO generation.
Edwig was clean, no regarding at all needed my friend!

Indeed, and when did he retire? April 1996, after Rabo decided to go on the dope?

Like Sorensen wasn't on the EPO already....

What a lost generation.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Franklin, compelling as always.

Apparently Team Rabo was not a subscriber of the 2008 anti-doping truce.
:rolleyes:
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Franklin said:
You missed the first iteration of Rasmussen versus Rabo which Rasmussen won in summer 2008. *

The Management team was deemed accomplice of whereabouts fraud by the judge* and that meant that Rasmussen deserved his pay. Check the Leinders thread (4th page I think, my post with the appropriate links and case number). Note that this was about pay against Rabo cycling and that the judge could not sentence the Management Team.

Leinders, de Rooij and Breukink were the three of that Management team.

Yet in the Giro 2009 Leinders was still at the Giro (which Mencov won...).


* Having read at least part of the evidence it seems extremely difficult not to think that Knebel was already aware of the trouble of his MT's behavior. At least during the trial and most likely before this would have come up.
In my memory, it was mostly De Rooij who came up at that time. Breukink's involvement (or not) has been a more recent story.

And until late this year also a staff which has been dirty to the core. USPS also was a clean team if we look at the riders... they only got caught when at another team. We know better now.

Sorry, but when a team has a management so deeply and utterly corrupted I think we can't believe at face value that these young guys are uncorrupted.
But what deeply and utterly corrupted management are you talking about? I think you don't know very well what Breukink is like. He's not corrupted, just naïve, and aloof. He was too distant, blissfully ignorant if you like.

The guy pulling the strings, Knebel, wasn't corrupted at all, in fact (even Ivan Spekenbrink says this) he really honestly wanted this to be a clean team, and tried his best to achieve it.

If Gesink and Mollema are or were on the dope, exactly how bad was this dope BTW?
 
May 26, 2009
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theyoungest said:
In my memory, it was mostly De Rooij who came up at that time. Breukink's involvement (or not) has been a more recent story.
Nope... in november 2007 (so a year before the court decision) the internal report was presented, confirming my notion that Knebel already got informed:

http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/nieuws/article/detail/1387760/2007/11/13/Zware-verwijten-aan-het-adres-van-ploegleiding-Rabobank.dhtml?utm_source=scherm1&utm_medium=button&utm_campaign=Cookiecheck

But what deeply and utterly corrupted management are you talking about? I think you don't know very well what Breukink is like. He's not corrupted, just naïve, and aloof. He was too distant, blissfully ignorant if you like.
Considering all we know that's just another white-wash poohpoohing of Rabo and Breukink.

Rabo was very effective in the GT's. They won more than Raleigh... We know that doping was involved (and that has been in the media for a long time!).

Now unless we think one of the most succesful teammanagers just lucked out and was a naive goof we could make a good case that Erik is pretty good at his job... creating a GT winner.

It's clear in the Rasmussen case that Erik hushed up knowingly about Rasmussen whereabouts(read the 2007 article). That's not naive. That's actively being involved in fraud!

If Gesink and Mollema are or were on the dope, exactly how bad was this dope BTW?
What a crazy question. We have no idea if they were on the dope.

What we do know is that the management was corrupted.
 
Interesting thing came up on twitter by this guy.

https://twitter.com/pvdploeg




Apparently Riis warned Rabo about signing Rasmussen '. :eek:

Can't quite understand it though if it's true. Rasmussen won his first pro victory while at CSC and must have been surely on the sauce.

Did Riis warn Rabo because he identified a super responder and thought he could turn this guy in to a Tour winner and therefore didn't want tho miss out?
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Franklin said:
Considering all we know that's just another white-wash poohpoohing of Rabo and Breukink.
Or you should just look at the guy, read some interviews, read some opinions of riders about him. You can't whitewash everything. He turned a blind eye to some things (possibly) but really, the overwhelming impression is of someone who was just too distant toward his riders.

I'm not trying to defend the guy, I'm all for super evil masterminds to be exposed, but I don't think he is one.

Rabo was very effective in the GT's. They won more than Raleigh... We know that doping was involved (and that has been in the media for a long time!).

Now unless we think one of the most succesful teammanagers just lucked out and was a naive goof we could make a good case that Erik is pretty good at his job... creating a GT winner.
Lol. Suddenly after their demise Rabobank are turned into this GT superpower? What are you on? Criticism on Rabobank really ranges from "they're abominably bad" to "they're suspiciously good".

the asian said:
Interesting thing came up on twitter by this guy.

https://twitter.com/pvdploeg




Apparently Riis warned Rabo about signing Rasmussen '. :eek:

Can't quite understand it though if it's true. Rasmussen won his first pro victory while at CSC and must have been surely on the sauce.

Did Riis warn Rabo because he identified a super responder and thought he could turn this guy in to a Tour winner and therefore didn't want tho miss out?
He sent the email to Jan Raas, who was already on his way out.
 
Bavarianrider said:
There are numerous articles which says that riders have said that Rabobank had systematic Team doping until 2012.
So where am i ignorant?:confused:
I dont know what the hell you read but its false.

Btw the whole article is pretty hilarious, especially Remmert Wielinga who starts cussing out Boogerd calling him an ******* and Rasmussen apparently being so much of a loose cannon that even Riis had to warn Rabo about him :eek:
 
May 26, 2009
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theyoungest said:
Or you should just look at the guy, read some interviews, read some opinions of riders about him. You can't whitewash everything. He turned a blind eye to some things (possibly) but really, the overwhelming impression is of someone who was just too distant toward his riders.

I'm not trying to defend the guy, I'm all for super evil masterminds to be exposed, but I don't think he is one.
Again.. the report states that he actively is involved in whereabouts fraud. Distant indeed :rolleyes:

Lol. Suddenly after their demise Rabobank are turned into this GT superpower? What are you on? Criticism on Rabobank really ranges from "they're abominably bad" to "they're suspiciously good".
Name the teams with more GT wins than Rabo, especially if you count the TdF 2007. ;)

What am I on indeed... or are you telling me only USPS is good and the other teams suck? Did Raleigh all of a sudden win 5 GT's after all?

Facts above emotion. There is only one team which won more GT's from 2005-2009. Had Rasmussen kept going they would have had 4 GT's in 5 years. Without Rasmussen they have a 3 in 5. Add in a bunch of Jerseys, top 3 by Mencov. I call that impressive.
 
May 26, 2009
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It's a Dutch thing tbh. Rabo has been written into the ground by the fans and media. Yet if you look at the numbers they had astoundingly good years... it's just that they did it with the wrong (non-dutch) riders.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Fearless Greg Lemond said:
Seems we have some Dutch fans on here Franklin. Not in SKY proportions but just as laughable.
Sigh... the nationality card again. What's your own nationality? Dutch, by any chance? I think Franklin is as well.

Franklin said:
It's a Dutch thing tbh. Rabo has been written into the ground by the fans and media. Yet if you look at the numbers they had astoundingly good years... it's just that they did it with the wrong (non-dutch) riders.
Yes, and with riders who (reportedly) were outsiders in the team. Over whom Breukink (perhaps intently) had little control, and displayed little interest. So where's the evil mastermind part?

I'm not a Breukink fan, at all. But if his active involvement consisted of not doing anything, I'd call him lax. Not corrupt to the core.
 
Jan 11, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
This is encouraging news. Need more brave souls to step forward.
Yes it is. But this is a guy who has worked as a journalist for the last 10 years or more. Himself a doper, and lying about it for years... not only that, even adamantly criticizing other dopers. And bashing Rabobank for their lack of results in recent years.

This serves once again to indicate the extent of hypocrisy in cycling.
 
If he had a naturally high hematocrit, he could have rationalized the whole thing so that his own doping was nothing and morally not as bad as that of the others. Keeping up instead of revving up, etc. But yes, it does show what kind of mentality cyclists have.

About Rasmussen, obviously Riis considered him a liability. The problem wasn't that he doped, but probably that he was likely to overdo it, screw up or be caught in general.
 
hrotha said:
If he had a naturally high hematocrit, he could have rationalized the whole thing so that his own doping was nothing and morally not as bad as that of the others. Keeping up instead of revving up, etc. But yes, it does show what kind of mentality cyclists have.

About Rasmussen, obviously Riis considered him a liability. The problem wasn't that he doped, but probably that he was likely to overdo it, screw up or be caught in general.
Rogue elephant.

Also it would appear we have a situation where several of the team managers shares information about key dopers.
 
theyoungest said:
Yes it is. But this is a guy who has worked as a journalist for the last 10 years or more. Himself a doper, and lying about it for years... not only that, even adamantly criticizing other dopers. And bashing Rabobank for their lack of results in recent years.

This serves once again to indicate the extent of hypocrisy in cycling.
No other sport offers the same characters as ours.
 

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