The revenge of Rasmussen ...

[hrotha]

No relation to Niki, I assume? 'Terpstra' looks like it would be a very common Frisian surname.

 

[theyoungest]

No relation to Niki, I assume? 'Terpstra' looks like it would be a very common Frisian surname.

No relation. Yes it's a common Frisian name. Neither of them is Frisian though.

Erica Terpstra is a popular Dutch swimmer-turned-politician and former head of Dutch Olympic Committee. Not sure what this has to do with the Rasmussen case, BTW.

 

[sniper]

No relation to Niki, I assume? 'Terpstra' looks like it would be a very common Frisian surname.

indeed, Terpstra is Frisian for López or García.

 

[snackattack]

That was the last of ...

 

[Arnout]

Danny Nelissen gave a longer interview last night. He said he was injected with EPO by Leinders during the Tour of 1996 and 1997. He had to go to the doctors room for this, alone, so he can't say for sure whether or not teammates went there. However, he said every rider of the team was presented with the facts about the benefits from doping, then they had to choose themselves, so he can't imagine noone else went for it. As he was nephew of Dutch cycling commentator Jean Nelissen, he thinks especially other Dutch riders where careful with their words when he was around.

Moreover, he said that all DSs knew of the doping practices within Rabobank. This includes guys like Raas, Van Houwelingen (interestingly, once Gesinks favorite Rabobank DS but that relation has cooled down it seems) and De Rooij. Basically every director sportif of 1996 and 1997 for sure, except parttime team leader Zoetemelk (whom we know doped in his own career but Nelissen thinks he wasn't an insider in the Rabobank story).

 

[snackattack]

Well another Dutch hypocritical PDM house of cards where Breukink was active is also falling apart.

wednesday Jan 23, 2013, 00:26 > http:/nos.nl

 

[Franklin]

Well another Dutch hypocritical PDM house of cards where Breukink was active is also falling apart.

wednesday Jan 23, 2013, 00:26 > http:/nos.nl

Meh, I certainly don't think the public had any doubts about that one. Even if they missed all the dope scandals and the Intrlipid affair, Rooks and Theunissen were already open about their drug use.

The PDM story is easy pickings. And old one too .

 

[Gregga]

Meh, I certainly don't think the public had any doubts about that one. Even if they missed all the dope scandals and the Intrlipid affair, Rooks and Theunissen were already open about their drug use.

The PDM story is easy pickings. And old one too .

The biggest question is : were they using EPO in 1988 ? Rooks and Theunisse great improvement that year would finally find an explanation.
Hope more details about their program soon.

 

[Arnout]

And in '95 when he was amateur world champ? Surely clean, huh?

Get a bad illness, dope harder seems to be the rule.

Edited to add: how lame can you be, to admit only AFTER Lance, being an outspoken anti-doper?

He says so. I've no reason not to believe him, considering Rabobank sort of presented him with the choice only after that. I also don't believe in the common thought of the clinic that someone who doped once will always dope.

I think he only admits now because if he did it before this year, he could potentially ruin the life of riders, mechanics and other personnel of Rabobank. That's no issue anymore. I understand the criticism on the late date of this story though.

 

[Lanark]

The biggest question is : were they using EPO in 1988 ? Rooks and Theunisse great improvement that year would finally find an explanation.
Hope more details about their program soon.

If that's your question then no, they didn't use EPO. Apparently they did use a blood transfusion on the 9th day of that Tour, but it doesn't say how much blood was injected.

Another interesting detail, the team worked with Jacques van Rossum (dopinlab of Utrecht) and Douwe de Boer to determine how long it takes for various PED's to stop becoming detectable, to plan their doping program. Douwe de Boer initially was on the Contador defense team. I'm sure he came highly recommended.

 

[sniper]

Another interesting detail, the team worked with Jacques van Rossum (dopinlab of Utrecht) and Douwe de Boer to determine how long it takes for various PED's to stop becoming detectable, to plan their doping program. Douwe de Boer initially was on the Contador defense team..

interesting indeed, excellent spot.
he's known as an 'anti-doping' expert. the irony.
The Dutch cycling industry is being exposed. Vrijman, De Boer, Rabo, PDM.
Excellent developments.

I'm sure he came highly recommended

 

[hrotha]

Was De Boer the Ferrari guy in Contador's team? I couldn't remember, so I did some research. Turns out Vacansoleil hired him to investigate Grega Bole when the USADA report came out. Oh cycling.

 

[roundabout]

Banfi was the Ferrari guy.

De Boer was also one of the experts for Landis, so it's possible that there is a second pool of supporting personnel somewhere.

 

[roundabout]

Banfi was the Ferrari guy.

De Boer was also one of the experts for Landis, so it's possible that there is a second pool of supporting personnel somewhere.

 

[hrotha]

Ah yes, thanks, I forgot to clarify he wasn't the Ferrari guy in Contador's team after all.

The Landis connection, though... Cycling is a small, rotten world.

 

[Franklin]

interesting indeed, excellent spot.
he's known as an 'anti-doping' expert. the irony.
The Dutch cycling industry is being exposed. Vrijman, De Boer, Rabo, PDM.
Excellent developments.

The cooperation of the medical universities, dutch anti-doping and PDM have been know for years, in fact it hit the headlines in 1988-1989. It wasn't a hush-hush secret, it was openly presented as a profesionalisation attempt. It was combined with ergo-testing and other medical research.

It's nice that it's all coming back up again, but this isn't news. And yeah, I remember seeing the interview with the university on the television and was shaking my head that the journo's (NOS) didn't question the ethics involved.

But keep in mind that Delgado and Indurain openly had ties with Universities too, that Moser was seen as the epitome of science (Conconi). Nobody asked the important questions.

 

[Franklin]

If that's your question then no, they didn't use EPO. Apparently they did use a blood transfusion on the 9th day of that Tour, but it doesn't say how much blood was injected.

I always wondered about the lack of stories about transfusions, while there was plenty of evidence how benificial blooddoping was. All we got were rumors about Langlaufers. Later we had the accusations against the Americans in 1984, and even later than that we started to get info about Conconi-Moser. But all in all it's pretty sketchy.

On the other hand steroids and amphetamine stories from that age are a dime a dozen.

The few cases that stand out are probably Roche, Delgado and Indurain. The elephant in the room is perhaps the almighty Renault team, but all we have there is again Steroids/Amphetamines.

 

[Benotti69]

interesting indeed, excellent spot.
he's known as an 'anti-doping' expert. the irony.
The Dutch cycling industry is being exposed. Vrijman, De Boer, Rabo, PDM.
Excellent developments.

Dont all the team employ anti-doping experts nowadays?

Helps to keep them from getting caught.

Schlecks went AWOL obviously.

 

[hrotha]

In that light, this 1985 article (in Spanish) on Eufemiano Fuentes is very representative of the mindset of that era: http://elpais.com/diario/1985/02/14/deportes/477183611_850215.html

It's about how sciency the whole thing is, and the scariest part is that Fuentes and the journalist discuss openly how they had been fine-tuning the program to avoid a positive test. That "no positive = no doping" mentality is alive and well, but at least it's not considered socially acceptable anymore.

 

[Franklin]

Ah yes, thanks, I forgot to clarify he wasn't the Ferrari guy in Contador's team after all.

The Landis connection, though... Cycling is a small, rotten world.

It's why you can always dismiss the "we didn't know this staff member/doctor was dirty" argument.

 

[Franklin]

In that light, this 1985 article (in Spanish) on Eufemiano Fuentes is very representative of the mindset of that era: http://elpais.com/diario/1985/02/14/deportes/477183611_850215.html

It's about how sciency the whole thing is, and the scariest part is that Fuentes and the journalist discuss openly how they had been fine-tuning the program to avoid a positive test. That "no positive = no doping" mentality is alive and well, but at least it's not considered socially acceptable anymore.

Yup, we are transposing current morals on that society. Back then you got ten minutes penalty and got relegated to the last spot in the day's standings when you got caught.

It's why people think this is news, while it was quite openly displayed and discussed by those involved (though never directly admitting using dope).

 

[sniper]

The cooperation of the medical universities, dutch anti-doping and PDM have been know for years, in fact it hit the headlines in 1988-1989. It wasn't a hush-hush secret, it was openly presented as a profesionalisation attempt. It was combined with ergo-testing and other medical research.

It's nice that it's all coming back up again, but this isn't news. And yeah, I remember seeing the interview with the university on the television and was shaking my head that the journo's (NOS) didn't question the ethics involved.

But keep in mind that Delgado and Indurain openly had ties with Universities too, that Moser was seen as the epitome of science (Conconi). Nobody asked the important questions.

you're right of course that it isn't news in the literal sense.
yet it is news as far as the Dutch press' interest in and coverage of the topic is concerned. not to mention the political attention it is getting.
there seems something of a snowball effect at work.

of course it is way too early to cheer.
at the same time, the perception (illusion if you will) that after 2005(2006 according to some, 2007 to others, 2008/9 according to yet others) cycling got so much cleaner is spreading fast.
If that perception settles, it could keep authorities from seriously looking into the present-day state of affairs in cycling.

 

[neineinei]

De Volksrant: Uit het verzorgersboekje: het structurele dopinggebruik binnen de PDM-ploeg

 

[Cloxxki]

He says so. I've no reason not to believe him, considering Rabobank sort of presented him with the choice only after that. I also don't believe in the common thought of the clinic that someone who doped once will always dope.

I think he only admits now because if he did it before this year, he could potentially ruin the life of riders, mechanics and other personnel of Rabobank. That's no issue anymore. I understand the criticism on the late date of this story though.

Are we back to believing in miracles then? What's this different from Armstrong winning his pro worlds? And Nelissen won a few years further down the doping road. Not sure a random clean pro is supposed to win the amateur worlds so convincingly. Nice fairytale though. I watched those worlds live. Just working from memory, but he seemed by far the best rider, recovering well from efforts. Keeping on going.
A little bit convenient to only start doping after your most impressive race. Like Leipheimer quitting the program before his strongest races. Or Armstrong going clean to podium the TdF as an old come back guy.

 

[Franklin]

Celestone=Steroids. Amazing that they seem to be taken them during the race... quack's indeed.

esafosfina= Glutammine, Italian brand(no info in Dutch which is amusing).

andreol= Testosteron

Test(o)= Short hand for Testosterone. Not sure if they got Testosterone and Andreol

Bentelan= glucocorticoid steroid

Creatergyl= Creatine

Cluphos Neoton= ???

Koker= Dutch word for Tube. Seems to be the administration method, edible it seems.

Here's another page with the blood doping:

Zakje bloed= Bag of blood.

Bruin Bol= ??? (Unless they mean a full wheat round bread ^^)


Last one:

Epargriseovit= Folic Acid

Oh and for those who wonder:
Vertrek=Depart
Half koers= Midway the stage
Onderweg=During (the stage)
Sav= shorthand for "S'avonds"= In the evening
Smorg=shorthand for "S'morgens"= In the morning
Schitterend=Fantastic
Formidable=Formidable (one step above fantastic it seems^^)
Goed=Good/sufficient
Redelijk goed=Reasonbly well/good.
Zeer goed=Very good