The revenge of Rasmussen ...

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Apr 21, 2012
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Lanark said:
Apparently two Dutch journalists have written a book about doping at the Rabobank team (will be published tomorrow). Some juicy details:

The team management bought a Sysmex XE 2100 in 2007 to better test their riders and prevent a positive. They used this machine in the 2007 Giro. Rasmussen now good his blood from Matschiner instead of Humanplasma. In the 2006 Tour he used two Humanplasma bags of 220 milliliter. Matschiner only provided bags of 180 ml. Rasmussen was scared that two bags of 180ml wouldn't be enough in the Tour, so he did a little experiment in the 2007 Giro.

During that Giro he used two 180ml blood bags at the same time. Geert Leinders measured his blood the morning before and after the transfusion. His hemaglobin incread by 1 percentpoint, his hematocrit from 38.5 to 41.7. Not nearly enough to lead to any sanctions by the UCI. So in the 2007 Tour he used one bag before the start, and two bags simultanious at two ocasions (probably at the rest days).

It clearly shows how much Leinders and the rest of the team management were involved in the doping program.

Another nice detail. In the 2002 Tour Boogerd won what is probably his most celebrated victory, the stage to La Plagne. This was in large part thanks to his own brother, Rini Boogerd, who gave him a transfusions with his (Rini's) blood the day before in the hotel. Again, it was Leinders who did the medical work.
Quite interesting to note that 1/ from 2007 they used half-bags compared to the Hamilton's/Fuentes years
2/ in 2002 homologuous transfusions were common, which means the Ashenden's test was useful even if it probably only caught blood manipulation mistakes (Hamilton, Sevilla, Vino)
 
Lanark said:
Apparently two Dutch journalists have written a book about doping at the Rabobank team (will be published tomorrow). Some juicy details:

The team management bought a Sysmex XE 2100 in 2007 to better test their riders and prevent a positive. They used this machine in the 2007 Giro. Rasmussen now good his blood from Matschiner instead of Humanplasma. In the 2006 Tour he used two Humanplasma bags of 220 milliliter. Matschiner only provided bags of 180 ml. Rasmussen was scared that two bags of 180ml wouldn't be enough in the Tour, so he did a little experiment in the 2007 Giro.

During that Giro he used two 180ml blood bags at the same time. Geert Leinders measured his blood the morning before and after the transfusion. His hemaglobin incread by 1 percentpoint, his hematocrit from 38.5 to 41.7. Not nearly enough to lead to any sanctions by the UCI. So in the 2007 Tour he used one bag before the start, and two bags simultanious at two ocasions (probably at the rest days).

It clearly shows how much Leinders and the rest of the team management were involved in the doping program.

Another nice detail. In the 2002 Tour Boogerd won what is probably his most celebrated victory, the stage to La Plagne. This was in large part thanks to his own brother, Rini Boogerd, who gave him a transfusions with his (Rini's) blood the day before in the hotel. Again, it was Leinders who did the medical work.
No surprises really. Anybody knows what happened with Leinders after he was fired at Team SkY?
 
May 26, 2009
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Dazed and Confused said:
No surprises really. Anybody knows what happened with Leinders after he was fired at Team SkY?
That's what you say now, but last summer everyone was dismissing Leinders as dirty but not that special. Just like the case between Rasmussen and Rabo where Leinders role in the Management team implicated him, this report won't cross the border.

But Leinders past is of course a huge issue. He was not just a doctor, he was part of the management team of Rabo and kept Boogerd, (E) Dekker, Rasmussen and Menchov posting negatives. That's three, almost 4 GT victories, a nice set of stage victories and polka dots. In the same time frame only USPS beats that.

So here we have it put in the open once again, the most succesful team doctor for GT's besides USPS was hired by Sky. There's absolutely no way around this one. And considering how dirty this guy was and the position of De Jong there was enough possibility for Sky to know better. Heck, hiring the doctor of Rasmussen and Menchov in itself is just wiping your bum with the so called "anti doping policies".

But they fired him after only "40" days of service, so it's ayokay :rolleyes:
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Its not like the saddle sore excuse was very believable to begin with, but its starting to look incresingly dumb now the more we learn about the good doctor

Now if only someone would ask Bailsford what he thinks of these recent developments
 
Franklin said:
That's what you say now, but last summer everyone was dismissing Leinders as dirty but not that special. Just like the case between Rasmussen and Rabo where Leinders role in the Management team implicated him, this report won't cross the border.

But Leinders past is of course a huge issue. He was not just a doctor, he was part of the management team of Rabo and kept Boogerd, (E) Dekker, Rasmussen and Menchov posting negatives. That's three, almost 4 GT victories, a nice set of stage victories and polka dots. In the same time frame only USPS beats that.

So here we have it put in the open once again, the most succesful team doctor for GT's besides USPS was hired by Sky. There's absolutely no way around this one. And considering how dirty this guy was and the position of De Jong there was enough possibility for Sky to know better. Heck, hiring the doctor of Rasmussen and Menchov in itself is just wiping your bum with the so called "anti doping policies".

But they fired him after only "40" days of service, so it's ayokay :rolleyes:
Not disagreeing with the majority of your post, but I will take kind exception to the bold part.

Had this report hit the street 4 years ago, I would not have be surprised either.

Probably 80% of the work team doctors do involves doping: Keeping riders under the radar when doping, preparing advanced doping cocktails, issuing TUEs etc.

So no surprises here.

So does anybody know what the doping doc is doing now?
 
Franklin said:
That's what you say now, but last summer everyone was dismissing Leinders as dirty but not that special. Just like the case between Rasmussen and Rabo where Leinders role in the Management team implicated him, this report won't cross the border.

But Leinders past is of course a huge issue. He was not just a doctor, he was part of the management team of Rabo and kept Boogerd, (E) Dekker, Rasmussen and Menchov posting negatives. That's three, almost 4 GT victories, a nice set of stage victories and polka dots. In the same time frame only USPS beats that.

So here we have it put in the open once again, the most succesful team doctor for GT's besides USPS was hired by Sky. There's absolutely no way around this one. And considering how dirty this guy was and the position of De Jong there was enough possibility for Sky to know better. Heck, hiring the doctor of Rasmussen and Menchov in itself is just wiping your bum with the so called "anti doping policies".

But they fired him after only "40" days of service, so it's ayokay :rolleyes:
Fuentes didn't retire when he was fired from Kelme. Nor Ferrari.

They went "freeLANCE" or in Ferrari's case went "exclusive".

Who said Leinders has stopped working?
 
thehog said:
Fuentes didn't retire when he was fired from Kelme. Nor Ferrari.

They went "freeLANCE" or in Ferrari's case went "exclusive".

Who said Leinders has stopped working?
Leinders has retired and spends most his time here:



On another note, what happened with all the information Rasmussen offered to the anti doping agency? Swept under the carpet or what?
 
Dazed and Confused said:
Leinders has retired and spends most his time here:

On another note, what happened with all the information Rasmussen offered to the anti doping agency? Swept under the carpet or what?
Very good.

TUE management would be a big part of Leinders role.

And making sure athletes keep within the "limit".

I wonder if he kept the Sysmex machine as a parting gift from Rabo?
 
Oct 12, 2012
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according to the dutch news citing an article to be published in a major "quality newspaper tomorrow:

rabo management (theo de rooij (team director/director), breukink, geert leinders (director /team doc) knew of the doping in the team and facilitated it by buying a sysmex machine (100k $) in 2007 (as bought by UCI to test members) to prevent positive tests by rabo members.

Rabo was like any other team, sometimes even much better than other teams. The USADA report details about the most advanced program available. Yet rabo had the best blooddoping program since 2004. Blood that could be frozen at 85 degrees below celcius, so that you can store it as long as you want without degrading like armstrongs blood bags did (as they wern't frozen).

the collaboration with the human plasma research center in 2004 was a big step in the doping race for rabo.

prior to 2004 rabo was allready experimenting with blood doping.
before the stage to la plagne in 2002 michael boogerd had a transfusion from his brother instead of his own blood.
it was gert leinders that suggested teammembers to use blood of family members. rasmussen didn't want to do that. boogerd did. Boogerd denies. but they have 2 sources that corroborate the story.

they are publishing to show that the team knew and activly facilitated doping and that theo de rooij might have perjured himself by stating under oath that he never knew or was involved.

Theo the rooij meanwhile responded on twitter saying that the accussations have gone far enough. and that he doesn't need to accept all the lies being told. he is considering legal action
 
Dazed and Confused said:
Leinders has retired and spends most his time here:



On another note, what happened with all the information Rasmussen offered to the anti doping agency? Swept under the carpet or what?
Rasmussen have told "all" he knows, He says. And the authorithies at least the danish anti doping agency, is looking into it I believe. How long that process will take is a open question..

One thing that has been public known, is a story about the danish olympic team, doping in 2004, I believe it was..
 
Samson777 said:
Rasmussen have told "all" he knows, He says. And the authorithies at least the danish anti doping agency, is looking into it I believe. How long that process will take is a open question..

One thing that has been public known, is a story about the danish olympic team, doping in 2004, I believe it was..
Waiting for the off season probably.

Gotta keep an eye on this imo. Dirty laundry etc.
 
May 26, 2010
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Dazed and Confused said:
No surprises really. Anybody knows what happened with Leinders after he was fired at Team SkY?
This \/ below, gone freelance and no doubt still working for Sky but from a safe distance.

thehog said:
Fuentes didn't retire when he was fired from Kelme. Nor Ferrari.

They went "freeLANCE" or in Ferrari's case went "exclusive".

Who said Leinders has stopped working?
Dazed and Confused said:
Leinders has retired and spends most his time here:

I wonder did Walsh bother to try and talk to Leinders. Doubt it.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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Lanark said:
Apparently two Dutch journalists have written a book about doping at the Rabobank team (will be published tomorrow). Some juicy details:

The team management bought a Sysmex XE 2100 in 2007 to better test their riders and prevent a positive. They used this machine in the 2007 Giro. Rasmussen now good his blood from Matschiner instead of Humanplasma. In the 2006 Tour he used two Humanplasma bags of 220 milliliter. Matschiner only provided bags of 180 ml. Rasmussen was scared that two bags of 180ml wouldn't be enough in the Tour, so he did a little experiment in the 2007 Giro.

During that Giro he used two 180ml blood bags at the same time. Geert Leinders measured his blood the morning before and after the transfusion. His hemaglobin incread by 1 percentpoint, his hematocrit from 38.5 to 41.7. Not nearly enough to lead to any sanctions by the UCI. So in the 2007 Tour he used one bag before the start, and two bags simultanious at two ocasions (probably at the rest days).

It clearly shows how much Leinders and the rest of the team management were involved in the doping program.

Another nice detail. In the 2002 Tour Boogerd won what is probably his most celebrated victory, the stage to La Plagne. This was in large part thanks to his own brother, Rini Boogerd, who gave him a transfusions with his (Rini's) blood the day before in the hotel. Again, it was Leinders who did the medical work.
An 8% increase in Hb/Hct from 360 ml of blood doesn't make any sense. :confused: Does anyone have an explanation for this?
 
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-team-used-blood-analysing-machine-to-mask-doping

However, according to an investigation by nrc.nl, the 75,000 Euro apparatus was used by Rabobank team doctor Geert Leinders and rider Michael Rasmussen to determine if blood doping by Rasmussen would be detected in anti-doping tests.

Rasmussen planned on receiving two blood bags simultaneously during the 2007 Tour de France, so during the 2007 Giro d'Italia, as an experiment, Rasmussen received two blood bags for the 12th stage and subsequent analysis by the Sysmex device showed that no abnormalities could be detected.

"I wanted to know what effect the two bags would have on my blood values," Rasmussen told nrc.nl.
It's interesting that a double BB bearly raises a spike in terms of abnormalities per anti doping.

It's also interesting that they're all using Sysmex. From Armstrong, to the UCI to Rabo.

I guess they're trying to keep their results per AD consistent.

Leinders is pivotal again. What the F was Sky doing with this guy considering the amount of Rabo guys at Sky.

All in all anti-doping is still just lipstick.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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thehog said:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/rabobank-team-used-blood-analysing-machine-to-mask-doping



It's interesting that a double BB bearly raises a spike in terms of abnormalities per anti doping.

It's also interesting that they're all using Sysmex. From Armstrong, to the UCI to Rabo.

I guess they're trying to keep their results per AD consistent.

Leinders is pivotal again. What the F was Sky doing with this guy considering the amount of Rabo guys at Sky.

All in all anti-doping is still just lipstick.
BS. Chicken's 2007 TdF blood profile is the worst Grand Tour Hb profile that's publically available. There isn't just an absence of the expected pattern (like LA in 2009), it actually shows the exact opposite of what you'd expect in a clean athlete. Ridiculous.
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
BS. Chicken's 2007 TdF blood profile is the worst Grand Tour Hb profile that's publically available. There isn't just an absence of the expected pattern (like LA in 2009), it actually shows the exact opposite of what you'd expect in a clean athlete. Ridiculous.
Hmmmm ok. But the Chicken confirms as far as anti-doping goes he was well within the limits. ie he wouldn't get caught.

Do you have a graphic of his profile?
 
Sep 29, 2012
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Tyler'sTwin said:
An 8% increase in Hb/Hct from 360 ml of blood doesn't make any sense. :confused: Does anyone have an explanation for this?
Packed RBCs? (39.7)
+dehydration
+tilting his head
+measurement error.

But in essence, I agree, it seems far fetched.

I get 40.7 if he started with 5l of blood, which seems ridiculous.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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thehog said:
Hmmmm ok. But the Chicken confirms as far as anti-doping goes he was well within the limits. ie he wouldn't get caught.

Do you have a graphic of his profile?
pre-BP he only had to be under 50% Hct. Post-BP he had to have normal Hct fluctuations.
 
Mar 4, 2010
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thehog said:
Hmmmm ok. But the Chicken confirms as far as anti-doping goes he was well within the limits. ie he wouldn't get caught.

Do you have a graphic of his profile?
Let's start with some comments from the experts on how blood should behave in a GT.

Mørkeberg:

"What we know from our research is that during periods of hard activity, like in the Tour de France, we normally see a drop in these blood values. We don't see this with Armstrong," he told DR Sport.
His aforementioned Tour de France study catalogued seven riders in the 2007 race, revealing lower hemoglobin and lower hematocrit (percentage of red blood cells in whole blood) on day 19 when compared to their pre-Tour reading. On average hemoglobin dropped 11.5% and hematocrit fell by 12.1%, keeping in line with physiological expectations.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/features/analysis-armstrongs-tour-blood-levels-debated

AS: Part of what you find suspicious about Armstrong’s values is that the hematocrit stays very steady, with a couple of spikes in the middle?

JM: Yes. Usually I'm referring to the hemoglobin concentration, because that is what's used nowadays. People are more and more interpreting hemoglobin concentrations instead of hematocrit because of analytical reasons. So what I see is that his first value is the same as his last value, and when you look at those individual values during the race, it's going down in the beginning, then after the rest day the values increase, then they go down again, and then on the second rest day it increases again. I am well aware of the analytical and biological variations in the hemoglobin concentration, that is why I have emphasized that the important point when interpreting these values is that the last value is not lower than the first.
AS: Michael Ashenden talked about a signal to noise ratio, there has to be enough of a fluctuation to be significant. Are these fluctuations beyond the range of 'noise'?

JM: The variations are within the noise, but that is if you're not doing anything. If you're not doing strenuous exercise, you wouldn't expect these values to change. You would expect these small variations that you see, but the reason I'm saying these values are suspicious is that he's doing strenuous exercise, and then you would expect to see a decrease, as you see in his values during the Giro. That's what's suspicious.
http://velocitynation.com/content/interviews/2009/armstrongs-bio-passport-critic-speaks

Ashenden:

In a pre-Tour blood screen from June 29, two days before the 2006 race began, Landis had a hematocrit level of 44.8 percent and hemoglobin level of 15.5. On July 11, 10 stages into the Tour, his hematocrit had increased to 48.2 and his hemoglobin to 16.1.

“Going from 15.5 to 16.1 (in hemoglobin) is not that unusual when not competing,” Ashenden said by phone from Australia. “But it is very unusual to see an increase after a hard week of cycling. You'd expect it to be the reverse. You'd expect that to fall in a clean athlete. An increase like this in the midst of the Tour de France would be highly, highly unlikely.
Ashenden also pointed out that during a three week race, the level of red blood cells should fall as a result of the strain of the event.

“The absence of a natural decline in blood concentration during a three-week race is also consistent with blood doping,” said Ashenden.
http://www.velonation.com/News/ID/13022/Ashenden-echoes-Parisottos-concerns-over-Armstrongs-2009-blood-values.aspx

Damsgaard:

“The seven CSC riders [who completed the Tour] had hemoglobin numbers decline by between 12 and 22 percent, and that’s completely normal. When the opposite happens — that the [hemoglobin] number rises during a hard race like the Tour de France — it indicates that one has received a blood transfusion,” Rasmus Damsgaard explains.

“We conclude that a rise in hemoglobin by itself ought to constitute the basis for the possibility of a penalty.”
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=84584&postcount=5

Here's Chicken's 2007 TdF profile:

Michael Rasmussen, 05.07.2007 - 40,3 Hct
Michael Rasmussen, 17.07.2007 - 43,1 Hct
Michael Rasmussen, 24.07.2007 - 43,9 Hct

Damsgaard:

Rasmussen did have a blood transfusion during the Tour or followed an EPO cure just before the Tour. Damsgaard says the increase of 3.6% in his hematocrit value and 1,1 gram per deciliter for his hemoglobin value is 'suspect', 'physiologically impossible' and scientifically impossible to explain in another way than that Rasmussen used doping.
http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=84368&postcount=1
 
Tyler'sTwin said:
An 8% increase in Hb/Hct from 360 ml of blood doesn't make any sense. :confused: Does anyone have an explanation for this?
0.36/5 L of blood volume gives 7.2% which is what shows. The extra water would be ejected out of the circulatory system as urine or get stored in cells as water. For more accuracy need the hematocrit of the blood that is injected.
 
Sep 29, 2012
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