The revenge of Rasmussen ...

[del1962]

I'd do it if I was a cyclist at that time.

Serioulsly

 

[Netserk]

Serioulsly

Yeah. I understand the reasons he gives in the book.

 

[Ney the Viking]

Rasmussed has clarifed that no he didn't see Oscar or Flecha dope, but it was his general feeling that everyone on the team was in on it. (aka no direct proof, but he is conviced they doped).
So no he didn't lie or tried to attract attention, he just spoke to the best of his knowledge without thinking of lawsuits.

He also said that those statements was made in a 10 minute online chat, and the things in the book has been 10 months in making including checking stuff and asking the people involved about their comments, and he hoped people understood the difference. And that he is not in the least afraid of lawsuits happening.

 

[Taxus4a]

Rasmussed has clarifed that no he didn't see Oscar or Flecha dope, but it was his general feeling that everyone on the team was in on it. (aka no direct proof, but he is conviced they doped).
So no he didn't lie or tried to attract attention, he just spoke to the best of his knowledge without thinking of lawsuits.

He also said that those statements was made in a 10 minute online chat, and the things in the book has been 10 months in making including checking stuff and asking the people involved about their comments, and he hoped people understood the difference. And that he is not in the least afraid of lawsuits happening.

Has he clarify that?

Well, if you read Hamilton s book, he started dooping becouse in a Liege he thought that a mate or a former mate that ride with him in USA, did better than him, when in USA it was the contrary.

I dont remenber exactly, butmaybe that man was 80 in the race, no more, and Hamilton 120 or so...

He was thinking about long time and it wasnt till Celaya ofer again, but Hamilton that day was more convicted about get into illegal drugs.

Years later he talked with that man. His answer was: yes, I doped, but time later, that day it was just a good day.

 

[Benotti69]

No that is a complete misnomer, some athletes will take some risks, some athletes will take big risks.

To quote one of your favourites, Jorg Jaksche said that if Kelme were doing all the stuff Manzano listed, they were right off the deep end and there is no way he(Jaksce) would have touched that stuff. As usual you try to lump everyone into the same pool.

70kms down a dodgy alpine roads is a big risks and 200+ guys do that on wheels 23mm wide 3 times a year.

EPO killed plenty yet Jaksche had no problems with it.

As you usual you get in wrong about moi!

 

[pmcg76]

70kms down a dodgy alpine roads is a big risks and 200+ guys do that on wheels 23mm wide 3 times a year.

EPO killed plenty yet Jaksche had no problems with it.

As you usual you get in wrong about moi!

Every time we get in a car, there is a risk that we might not make it to the end of the journey, we still do it though. Every time we go out on a bike the same chance of getting knocked down by a car. Descending downhill on a bike is hardly any more risky than many everyday aspects of life.

As usual you are wrong and try to move the goalposts. Also your analogy is a bad one, not all riders are prepared to take the same risks on a downhill, think Andy Schleck, Thibaut Pinot. Not all riders were prepared to dope, not all riders are prepared to dope to the same level, not everyone was prepared to dope with EPO. Jaksche doped with medical supervision and that is why he said what Kelme were doing was crazy.

There is simply no catch all fact that all riders are prepared to take the same risks with doping.

 

[Benotti69]

Every time we get in a car, there is a risk that we might not make it to the end of the journey, we still do it though. Every time we go out on a bike the same chance of getting knocked down by a car. Descending downhill on a bike is hardly any more risky than many everyday aspects of life.

As usual you are wrong and try to move the goalposts. Also your analogy is a bad one, not all riders are prepared to take the same risks on a downhill, think Andy Schleck, Thibaut Pinot. Not all riders were prepared to dope, not all riders are prepared to dope to the same level, not everyone was prepared to dope with EPO. Jaksche doped with medical supervision and that is why he said what Kelme were doing was crazy.

There is simply no catch all fact that all riders are prepared to take the same risks with doping.

Medical supervision in the pro peloton aint exactly guaranteed to be the best. Plenty of examples of team docs making a balls up. PDM went home from a TdF due to bad PEDs. Plenty of dead ahtletes who doped following their team docs instructions. Lots setting alarm clocks to wake them every hour so the epo didn't kill them.

Schleck did take risks going downhill he finished 2nd to Contador and not by freewheeling down the cols.

The riders who were not prepared to dope went home, like Bassons, Scott Mercier and others. The Culture is to dope. You want to have huge cajones or massive talent to prove you dont need the dope.

There is simply no catch all that the doping culture is not all pervasive in the pro peloton.

 

[pmcg76]

Medical supervision in the pro peloton aint exactly guaranteed to be the best. Plenty of examples of team docs making a balls up. PDM went home from a TdF due to bad PEDs. Plenty of dead ahtletes who doped following their team docs instructions. Lots setting alarm clocks to wake them every hour so the epo didn't kill them.

Schleck did take risks going downhill he finished 2nd to Contador and not by freewheeling down the cols.

The riders who were not prepared to dope went home, like Bassons, Scott Mercier and others. The Culture is to dope. You want to have huge cajones or massive talent to prove you dont need the dope.

There is simply no catch all that the doping culture is not all pervasive in the pro peloton.

You have to go all the way back 20 years ago to give examples, that is hardly a norm then. When Jaksche was asked about riders setting alarm clocks, he said that was an old pro's tale from the 90s.

If you can somehow show that all riders are prepared to take the same risks when it comes to doping that would be great, is everyone prepared to be like Ricco for example. You simply cannot show it but try to keep changing the focus.

 

[Taxus4a]

Medical supervision in the pro peloton aint exactly guaranteed to be the best. Plenty of examples of team docs making a balls up. PDM went home from a TdF due to bad PEDs. Plenty of dead ahtletes who doped following their team docs instructions. Lots setting alarm clocks to wake them every hour so the epo didn't kill them.

Schleck did take risks going downhill he finished 2nd to Contador and not by freewheeling down the cols.

The riders who were not prepared to dope went home, like Bassons, Scott Mercier and others. The Culture is to dope. You want to have huge cajones or massive talent to prove you dont need the dope.

There is simply no catch all that the doping culture is not all pervasive in the pro peloton.

Are you talking of the present?

That have changed a lot in Europe, in other countries is changing but it is like that now.

Of course there are cyclist taking risk face a ban or with his heath, becouse GW1415 has been used even in Europe, but that is a minority nowadays.

The culture have changed a lot and if you dont believe maybe you never will believe it, but we will see that years later.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...we will see that years later.

This was the refrain too many years ago to count and nothing has changed. You have guys challenging EPO-fueled times "clean." So, no we won't because segment times are rivaling EPO times already.

 

[Benotti69]

You have to go all the way back 20 years ago to give examples, that is hardly a norm then. When Jaksche was asked about riders setting alarm clocks, he said that was an old pro's tale from the 90s.

How about a Sky soignuer dying. That up to date enough for you? How about Ricco nearly dying?

If you can somehow show that all riders are prepared to take the same risks when it comes to doping that would be great, is everyone prepared to be like Ricco for example. You simply cannot show it but try to keep changing the focus.

The sport has a culture of doping. It was ever thus and we will see if Cookson wants to change that. But enough are testing positive even with the crap UCI anti testing.

 

[pmcg76]

How about a Sky soignuer dying. That up to date enough for you? How about Ricco nearly dying?



The sport has a culture of doping. It was ever thus and we will see if Cookson wants to change that. But enough are testing positive even with the crap UCI anti testing.

The SKY soigneur died from doping???

I mentioned Ricco before and pointed out that not everybody is prepared to go that far. You are the one claiming that all riders are prepared to take major risks like Ricco, time to back that statement up.

The odd rider is testing positive not a lot of riders and since when has testing positive become an indication of anything. You always claim that not testing positive means nothing but now you are putting it forward as proof of how dirty cycling is.

 

[Samson777]

Bo hamburger says the chicken is right about Riis: http://sporten.tv2.dk/2013-11-08-hamburger-bakker-kyllingen-op-riis-kendte-alt-til-doping

But he does not bring any evidence, or even a situation where Riis directly told him to dope or saw him do it. So don't know how much it will be worth, in the end. But it is another saying that Riis knew about doping, so he can be added to the total.

 

[Benotti69]

The SKY soigneur died from doping???

I mentioned Ricco before and pointed out that not everybody is prepared to go that far. You are the one claiming that all riders are prepared to take major risks like Ricco, time to back that statement up.

The odd rider is testing positive not a lot of riders and since when has testing positive become an indication of anything. You always claim that not testing positive means nothing but now you are putting it forward as proof of how dirty cycling is.

Cycling has always led the way in using drugs that are not on the market. Look at Froome, like something from Belsen yet the best climber and TTer at the TdF. What dope was he on? AICAR, Gas9, or something made in a garage by a dodgy chemist just like Balco and his 'the clear'.

These guys are prepared to use whatever their docs tell them to use, otherwise there would be a lot more Scott Merciers. The same docs from 20 years ago are still handing out the white bags. The riders that took the dope 20 year ago are running teams now.

It was always the odd rider testing positive. It takes the police to bust Fuentes, the police to Investigate Mantova, the Feds to investigate USPS before we find how global the doping is.

Keep believing JVs 'cleanER' crap all you want, but the culture of doping has not changed in the sport, how could it when all the main protagonists are still in it and running it.

 

[SundayRider]

This was the refrain too many years ago to count and nothing has changed. You have guys challenging EPO-fueled times "clean." So, no we won't because segment times are rivaling EPO times already.

Yet look how long some of the doped world records stood for in athletics...

 

[MartinGT]

Cycling has always led the way in using drugs that are not on the market. Look at Froome, like something from Belsen yet the best climber and TTer at the TdF. What dope was he on? AICAR, Gas9, or something made in a garage by a dodgy chemist just like Balco and his 'the clear'.

These guys are prepared to use whatever their docs tell them to use, otherwise there would be a lot more Scott Merciers. The same docs from 20 years ago are still handing out the white bags. The riders that took the dope 20 year ago are running teams now.

It was always the odd rider testing positive. It takes the police to bust Fuentes, the police to Investigate Mantova, the Feds to investigate USPS before we find how global the doping is.

Keep believing JVs 'cleanER' crap all you want, but the culture of doping has not changed in the sport, how could it when all the main protagonists are still in it and running it.

Amen brother

<thread>closed</thread>

 

[mattghg]

<thread>closed</thread>

OR we could continue talking about Rasmussen and Rabobank...

 

[Susan Westemeyer]

OR we could continue talking about Rasmussen and Rabobank...

Which, as mattghg so rightly points out, is the topic here......

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Bo hamburger says the chicken is right about Riis: http://sporten.tv2.dk/2013-11-08-hamburger-bakker-kyllingen-op-riis-kendte-alt-til-doping

But he does not bring any evidence, or even a situation where Riis directly told him to dope or saw him do it. So don't know how much it will be worth, in the end. But it is another saying that Riis knew about doping, so he can be added to the total.

So whats the deal with Hamburger? Will he deliver real information about other riders, doctors, dope suppliers, teams etc, or is this just some Riis focused groupie stuff?

Teams involved:
2006 Ita Miche PROF 871 60 All Points
2005 Ita Acqua & Sapone - Adria Mobil PROF 1029 40 All Points
2004 Ita Acqua & Sapone - Caffè Mokambo TT2 282 199 All Points
2003 Ita Formaggi Pinzolo Fiave - Ciarrocchi Immobiliare TT2 101 441 All Points
→ Contract from 1/03
2002 Ita Index - Alexia Alluminio TT1 368 156 All Points
2001 Den Team CSC - Tiscali TT1 499 82 All Points
2000 Den Memory Card - Jack & Jones TT1 76 558 All Points
1999 Ita Cantina Tollo - Alexia Alluminio TT1 245 183 All Points
1998 Fra Casino - Ag2R TT1 - 0 All Points

 

[Netserk]

So whats the deal with Hamburger? Will he deliver real information about other riders, doctors, dope suppliers, teams etc, or is this just some Riis focused groupie stuff?

The latter IMO.

 

[Samson777]

The latter IMO.

Yeah, so far it seems like it. But perhaps tomorrow we will know more, when he gives interview to BT. http://www.bt.dk/cykling/hamburger-om-afsloeringen-af-riis-traet-at-vaere-det-sorte-faar-i-flokken

Also in his TV2 interview, he did say that all his DS at the different teams knew about his doping. But the question is if he will take it further that.If it get's stronger, than just stating that doping was a given, but it was not directly discussed with the DS.

Also, for thoose who don't know, Hamburgers is a employee at the Chickens team. Not to implicate that he should be lying, it just add to the picture when he now support the chickens claims in public.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Yeah, so far it seems like it. But perhaps tomorrow we will know more, when he gives interview to BT. http://www.bt.dk/cykling/hamburger-om-afsloeringen-af-riis-traet-at-vaere-det-sorte-faar-i-flokken

Also in his TV2 interview, he did say that all his DS at the different teams knew about his doping. But the question is if he will take it further that.If it get's stronger, than just stating that doping was a given, but it was not directly discussed with the DS.

Also, for thoose who don't know, Hamburgers is a employee at the Chickens team. Not to implicate that he should be lying, it just add to the picture when he now support the chickens claims in public.

Unless he delivers some names other than Riis this is going to be pretty pathetic isn't it? Riis deserves all he gets, but fans really needs more than just another "one person witch hunt" like the one driven by USADA/Garmin.

(Rasmussen did the right job imo, named just about everybody).

 

[pmcg76]

Yeah, so far it seems like it. But perhaps tomorrow we will know more, when he gives interview to BT. http://www.bt.dk/cykling/hamburger-om-afsloeringen-af-riis-traet-at-vaere-det-sorte-faar-i-flokken

Also in his TV2 interview, he did say that all his DS at the different teams knew about his doping. But the question is if he will take it further that.If it get's stronger, than just stating that doping was a given, but it was not directly discussed with the DS.

Also, for thoose who don't know, Hamburgers is a employee at the Chickens team. Not to implicate that he should be lying, it just add to the picture when he now support the chickens claims in public.

Is there anything that Hamburger is going to say that is going to be a revelation? Look at when he was riding and some of those teams. He might name a few more people but really people coming forward from that period are not exactly revealing anything we didn't already figure out. Rider X doped from 2002 was doping, hardly shocking unless it was Moncoutie.

 

[Netserk]

Is there anything that Hamburger is going to say that is going to be a revelation? Look at when he was riding and some of those teams. He might name a few more people but really people coming forward from that period are not exactly revealing anything we didn't already figure out. Rider X doped from 2002 was doping, hardly shocking unless it was Moncoutie.

You could say the same about many of the US Postal witnesses...

 

[Samson777]

Unless he delivers some names other than Riis this is going to be pretty pathetic isn't it? Riis deserves all he gets, but fans really needs more than just another "one person witch hunt" like the one driven by USADA/Garmin.

(Rasmussen did the right job imo, named just about everybody).

Yeah, it could be. Also since Hamburger already confessed to doping in a book 6 years ago. But was a Zabel kind of confession, so now 6 years later, his ready with the "whole" truth. He said in the danish TV interview( not in the text): http://sporten.tv2.dk/2013-11-08-hamburger-bakker-kyllingen-op-riis-kendte-alt-til-doping
That it would all be public anyway in the anti doping report, so he might as well tell it himself now.

But yes, unless he deliver something else, it will just add to the Riis hunt, which I agree Riis of course deserve, but it is very one sided.