The Roche Family and Irish Cycling

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Conconi blood doper Moser for the hour record in 1984. It was possible Roche was being blood doped(EPO) by Conconi in 1987.

No EPO. At the Calgary Olympics of 88 blooddoping was still the thing to do in biathlon/cross country, and those guys are up to date...

Roche was a pretty awsome rider. Big gears ****ed his knees/back, like Fignon. He doped allright, roids, corti's and at the Jeans Ferrara Factory.

did he stop using it during 88-91

Knees and back injuries.

 

[pmcg76]

No EPO. At the Calgary Olympics of 88 blooddoping was still the thing to do in biathlon/cross country, and those guys are up to date...

Roche was a pretty awsome rider. Big gears ****ed his knees/back, like Fignon. He doped allright, roids, corti's and at the Jeans Ferrara Factory.Knees and back injuries.

He was plagued by injuries during that time alright especially 88 but he was also riding for portions of that time. Top 10 in the 89 Giro for example. Don't think he had any major injury problems in 90 and was going well enough in 91 except for stupidly missing the start of the TTT which seen him eliminated from the Tour.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

He was plagued by injuries during that time alright especially 88 but he was also riding for portions of that time. Top 10 in the 89 Giro for example. Don't think he had any major injury problems in 90 and was going well enough in 91 except for stupidly missing the start of the TTT which seen him eliminated from the Tour.

I must say I did not have too much attention for Roche in those days, boring rider. But seeing his results, and keeping in mind his knee/back problem, he was good in shorter stage races, but not the GT's, after 1987. At the Jeans Ferrara team he had two nice last seasons, our Rocco

Of course he was a good rider but I had other favourites. One not competing in 87 obviously, but also Kelly. Totally different riders.

 

[Frosty]

Roche showed before 1987, and before his move to Carrera, that he was a top talent - 13th in the tour in 1983, 3rd in 1985, as well as good results in other races. Also, the 1987 tour was lacking Hinault, Lemond and Fignon was not on top form. We'll never know where everyone would stand if everyone had raced clean though.

From a personal point of view, if anyone at the top of the GCs is not doping then Nicolas Roche is likely to be among them. He has no big stand-out results which look dodgy IMO, has steadily improved. His dad was a TDF winner and his mum was the sister of a French racer so he has the genetic side. Member of bikepure, a 0 on the suspicion list in the 2010 Tour. I appreciate that the 'everyone is doping all the time' brigade will disagree but there you go.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Roche showed before 1987, and before his move to Carrera, that he was a top talent - 13th in the tour in 1983, 3rd in 1985, as well as good results in other races. Also, the 1987 tour was lacking Hinault, Lemond and Fignon was not on top form. We'll never know where everyone would stand if everyone had raced clean though.

From a personal point of view, if anyone at the top of the GCs is not doping then Nicolas Roche is likely to be among them. He has no big stand-out results which look dodgy IMO, has steadily improved. His dad was a TDF winner and his mum was the sister of a French racer so he has the genetic side. Member of bikepure, a 0 on the suspicion list in the 2010 Tour. I appreciate that the 'everyone is doping all the time' brigade will disagree but there you go.

I agree, totally. I just did not like the rider Roche. No heroic rider like for example Francois Simon with his broken collar bone [1984?].

Nicholas does not have his talent imho.

 

[martinvickers]

No EPO. At the Calgary Olympics of 88 blooddoping was still the thing to do in biathlon/cross country, and those guys are up to date...

Roche was a pretty awsome rider. Big gears ****ed his knees/back, like Fignon. He doped allright, roids, corti's and at the Jeans Ferrara Factory.Knees and back injuries.

Interesting post. One school of thought was that the already impressive palmeres of 1987 would have blossomed further into all-time great status but for his body breaking down. I never bought that, personally.

to me, 87 was a miracle by a very good rider, at the top of his game, with the stars aligned. Another GT or 2 would not be out of the question, but not necessarily likely either, dope or not.

 

[martinvickers]

I must say I did not have too much attention for Roche in those days, boring rider. But seeing his results, and keeping in mind his knee/back problem, he was good in shorter stage races, but not the GT's, after 1987. At the Jeans Ferrara team he had two nice last seasons, our Rocco

Of course he was a good rider but I had other favourites. One not competing in 87 obviously, but also Kelly. Totally different riders.

Kelly was a throwback. As I've said before, more than a touch of Sagan about him - or more than a touch of Kelly about Sagan.

 

[Athame]

Sean Kelly = last of the Flemish Strongmen

 

[Captain Sensible]

Sean Kelly = last of the Flemish Strongmen

+1 still one of my favourite riders of his era .

 

[FitSsikS]

From the abstract of the journal document "These data indicate that ECH supplementation resulted in an increase in EPO and IL-3 but did not significantly alter RBCs, Hb, or Hct. "

In short, it doesn't work

Absolutely! The real purpose of this product is to get you to hand over your credit card info so they can get you on the "Auto Ship" program at $44.95/month or $129.90/3 months.

Cha-ching!!

 

[Echoes]

I personally don't think Roche Snr was an early exponent of EPO, in fact I would say it was only when he returned to Carrera in 92 that he may have become involved in EPO. Kimmage was with Roche at Fagor in 89 and there is no mention of EPO in the original edition of Rough Ride. Kimmage didn't even seem to have heard of it at that time. 90/91 were two bad seasons for Roche so seems unlikely he would be on EPO.

Yes but 1992 is still early for me.

Willy Voet said that the RMO guys had their eyes opened when they moved to Festina in 93 because of the PDM influx but didn't Voet also say it was only before the 93 Tour that it was talked of implementing an EPO program.

Must be right. I don't remember exactly.

That Milan-San Remo win of Kelly was more down to nerve's of steel than anything else. Kelly only got away on the descent of the Poggio and then refused to work so unless EPO improves your descending skills as well I don't think it was an EPO victory.

He didn't have to work after the descent because the finish was on the Corso Cavaloti, shortly after.

I remember that win very well. I was 8 and it's the first Milan-Sanremo that I've seen, a pretty good memory for me because it was a sweet revenge from the Ardennes the year before where bionic Argentin handled Criquielion. I hate to think it might be a doped win but there are many puzzling indications. Let's make a chronology.

In 1990, PDM riders are flying. A second-tier rider on the cobbles, Rudy Dhaenens, becomes World Champion, ahead of his own teammate Dirk De Wolf and 2nd at Flanders where he was the only one able to follow Argentin who had just phenixed with the help of Ferrari. Breukink and Alcala were also flying in stage races. Even Kelly won Switzerland, like in the good old days.

1991, intralipid affair, whole team sick. An affair that is almost certainly linked with EPO. Kelly was in it.

Late 1991, Kelly at age 35 wins Lombardy, which that time was heavily hilly.

And then he won Milan-Sanremo in 1992. OK due to his descending skills but he was one of the first on top of the Poggio, and had 290km in the legs at that point, at age 35 and his main rival was notable heavy doper.

So what to think? Either the collective illness of July 1991 was a deterrent and Kelly won his last two major classics on class alone (after all Breukink clearly made a complete break after the affair) or else he kept on using EPO. Unfortunately.

There's a book somewhere which says that Kelly, while clearly Irish, was stylistically closer to the old Flemish riders - specifically that he was hard as nails.

I once had a talk with my dad who is more chauvinistic than myself and who would keep on saying that Belgium had all the biggest stars. I would say "and what about Kelly?" he: "Well, yeah Kelly, OK ... (short break) but may I remind, son, that Kelly was a Belgian!"

And I remembered that when he turned pro, he moved to Vilvoorde, close to where Lomme Driessens lived, lol.

I read in Van Walleghem's book about Briek Schotte that the latter recognized much of himself in Kelly. First, because they were both farmboys and because they were hard men and satisfied with everything (says Schotte).

I agree, totally. I just did not like the rider Roche. No heroic rider like for example Francois Simon with his broken collar bone [1984?].

Roche = The Easter Bell !!
If only he had raced like a man that day, the future bionic man would never have won his 3rd Liège in a row.

By the way, it was Pascal Simon and I don't see anything heroic in LeMond's career if you ask me.

 

[noddy69]

Roche and kelly are legends , but like most cyclists of their era both are tainted by drugs.

Epo was not around in 1987 within the peleton, but if anyone seriously thinks that roche after being put in an ambulance after catching delgado didnt have something prepared for recovery then naive aint the word.

I dont beleive in miracles only probability.

 

[pmcg76]

I must say I did not have too much attention for Roche in those days, boring rider. But seeing his results, and keeping in mind his knee/back problem, he was good in shorter stage races, but not the GT's, after 1987. At the Jeans Ferrara team he had two nice last seasons, our Rocco

Of course he was a good rider but I had other favourites. One not competing in 87 obviously, but also Kelly. Totally different riders.

Funny that you say Roche was boring when your hero LeMond was just as boring. Both were calculating riders rather than being aggressive like a Hinault or Fignon. In fact I would say both riders were cut from the same mould with LeMond being the better rider obvioulsy.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Funny that you say Roche was boring when your hero LeMond was just as boring. Both were calculating riders rather than being aggressive like a Hinault or Fignon. In fact I would say both riders were cut from the same mould with LeMond being the better rider obvioulsy.

You are entitled to your own flawn perception, no prob.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-on-mcquaid-and-kimmage

“Unfortunately, I think it’s a bit personal and it’s unfortunate that it’s been aired in the press, the laundry’s been aired in public,” Roche told Cyclingnews in Belfast. “After a while, you have to say, ‘let’s get on with things, let’s find someone else to throw stones at.’ Maybe Paul feels Pat has hurt him, while Pat feels Paul and David have hurt him.”

Once a Conconi client always an omertist it seems, what an a-hole.

 

[Benotti69]

Q

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/roche-on-mcquaid-and-kimmage

“Unfortunately, I think it’s a bit personal and it’s unfortunate that it’s been aired in the press, the laundry’s been aired in public,” Roche told Cyclingnews in Belfast. “After a while, you have to say, ‘let’s get on with things, let’s find someone else to throw stones at.’ Maybe Paul feels Pat has hurt him, while Pat feels Paul and David have hurt him.”

Once a Conconi client always an omertist it seems, what an a-hole.

McQuaid made it personal. Roche pure omertatist. Not a fan. Was a fan of Kelly.

Kelly did not win MSR or Lombardy clean at what was considered a grand old age back then in the sport. Argentin was on a program too.

But I guess Kelly did not respond (or refused to take as much as others) as well to EPO as others did, when it was used to its full potential so it meant he was out of contention unlike guys like Kloden, Horner, Voight, Hincapie seemed to have managed to continue well past the normal use by date.

 

[orbeas]

Irish cycling

No EPO. At the Calgary Olympics of 88 blooddoping was still the thing to do in biathlon/cross country, and those guys are up to date...

Roche was a pretty awsome rider. Big gears ****ed his knees/back, like Fignon. He doped allright, roids, corti's and at the Jeans Ferrara Factory.Knees and back injuries.

Most of the top riders suffered from knee problems - a result of heavy steriod abuse, it builds up the muscles but weakens where the muscle joins in the knee--- Meartens - Guimard - Hinault all suffered !!!!

 

[classic1]

I must say I did not have too much attention for Roche in those days, boring rider. But seeing his results, and keeping in mind his knee/back problem, he was good in shorter stage races, but not the GT's, after 1987. At the Jeans Ferrara team he had two nice last seasons, our Rocco

Of course he was a good rider but I had other favourites. One not competing in 87 obviously, but also Kelly. Totally different riders.

If you thought Roche was a boring rider, you weren't paying any attention at all. An attacking rider, par excellence.

 

[Basecase]

Roche is boring to watch and unintelligent

I speak as an Irishman

His intelligence is proven by his lack of diction, inability to spell own name on twitter account, and his selection of Riis and Bertie as stable mates

 

[Don't be late Pedro]

His intelligent is proven by his lack of diction, inability to spell own name on twitter account

So, so close....

 

[Basecase]

I was able to change my pred text error

Something tells me Andy McQuaid won't have anything written into nr's contract that if he experiences anything untoward with his new team, then he can bail ..... Would love to b proved wrong

 

[Eyeballs Out]

Roche seems to be morphing into a McQuaid

Pat McQuaid aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Stephen Roche aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

 

[noddy69]

Nicholas strikes me as one of the clean riders within the peleton. Able to put in good performances and steady tours with drops over time in the tours, which you would expect in big tours with the exertions. However catch 22 now that he has moved to saxo-tinkoff pharmaceuticals .

If the peleton is cleaner and Nico is one of the guys who didnt use then it should be expected that he will rise to the top as his performance will stay the same. However if he does then people will say its the team and doping.

The only situation where he wins out is if his position remains relative to where he was....but that means there is still doping at the top or they are all doping.

I like to think he is one of the clean guys but now he is at saxo suspicion will be rife no matter what happens.

 

[Benotti69]

Roche seems to be morphing into a McQuaid

Pat McQuaid aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa Stephen Roche aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That could well be the plan. Roche would be an excellent puppet for MCQuaid.

 

[Benotti69]

Nicholas strikes me as one of the clean riders within the peleton. Able to put in good performances and steady tours with drops over time in the tours, which you would expect in big tours with the exertions. However catch 22 now that he has moved to saxo-tinkoff pharmaceuticals .

If the peleton is cleaner and Nico is one of the guys who didnt use then it should be expected that he will rise to the top as his performance will stay the same. However if he does then people will say its the team and doping.

The only situation where he wins out is if his position remains relative to where he was....but that means there is still doping at the top or they are all doping.

I like to think he is one of the clean guys but now he is at saxo suspicion will be rife no matter what happens.

And he must know this, so why join? Money or he his doing what all the others are doing, probably both!

 

[noddy69]

And he must know this, so why join? Money or he his doing what all the others are doing, probably both!

Money has to be one. I question whether his old man gave him the right advice. With the biggest doping scandal now hitting the headlines you would imagine now is not the right time to be ramping up your performance and putting yourself in the spotlight, although reverse psychology will come into it with peoples past results explained away by others doping and now the real talent is rising.

If this starts being the case then cycling stays as it was.

I dont see how Roche could move and not get tainted where he is with the elements that are at that team. The first mountains and TTs will tell more.
Although Roche has always had the talent to do well in the TTs he just hasnt had the belief or training it needs. I remember hi being passed quite easily (I think it was Evans) and then staying the allowed distance behind for the remainder. So the power etc is there. So for me the real tell will be the mountains.