The Roche Family and Irish Cycling

[sniper]

perhaps Roche senses that Saxo won't make it into next season, with Riis being in trouble and all, and decides to take that extra bloodbag for the Vuelta, where anti-doping is known to be a joke anyway.
Roche is human you know. Needs a job next season.

 

[Netserk]

perhaps Roche senses that Saxo won't make it into next season, with Riis being in trouble and all, and decides to take that extra bloodbag for the Vuelta, where anti-doping is known to be a joke anyway.
Roche is human you know. Needs a job next season.

He's not really in that much of a trouble atm. There's the ADD investigation, but I doubt that will effect the team in the very near future.

 

[fmk_RoI]

There's a book somewhere which says that Kelly, while clearly Irish, was stylistically closer to the old Flemish riders - specifically that he was hard as nails.

That doesn't source to a single author, it's a general observation many have made: Kelly became Belgian, Roche became French (Elliot, before them, was a Flahute).

 

[fmk_RoI]

While it does talk about the 90's, there is nothing to suggest it wasn't in use in 1987 on carerra.

Apart, that is, for the lack of evidence for its availability or use at the time.

Let's consider something here: PDM - allegedly the top team outside of Italy when it came to doping - were still using blood bags in 1988. If - as you seem to believe - EPO was available and in use, why weren't PDM using it?

Off the top of my head, the earliest evidence for use of EPO comes from 1989.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Conconi blood doper Moser for the hour record in 1984. It was possible Roche was being blood doped(EPO) by Conconi in 1987.

It is highly likely that Carrera were using transfusions in 1987, as were many teams.

 

[pmcg76]

Roche never had this level in him with a French team, now he has found it with Riis? Only one thing can do that, doping.

Vuelta 2010 was amazingly similar to this edition with 9 summit finishes. Here is Roche's finishing position on each stage taking out breaks that finished in front.

Malaga: 6th
Valdepenas de Jaen: 8th
Xoret de Cati: 10th
Alcoy: 3rd
Andorra: 14th
Pena Cabarga: 5th
Lagos de Covadonga: 6th
Alto de Cobetoria: 5th
Bola del Mundo: 6th

Of course the big difference so far is the TT, he was only 28th in 2010. I don't mind people claiming he was always doping(if that's what they believe) but to suggest he has never climbed at this level before is just nonsense.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Roche never had this level in him with a French team, now he has found it with Riis? Only one thing can do that, doping.

If Roche's perf in Spain is proof of doping, where is the evidence from his Tour, where he was being dropped with gay abandon?

Roche is a nice guy, but he's a bit French - the French mentality toward the two speed peloton - and was just coasting on the family name (ffs, how long was it he didn't even have a TT bike to practice on?). As his father spurred Kelly to finally get the finger out, Martin has spurred junior to finally take his head out of his behind. Even senior says junior has an attitude problem - you can't criticise him unless you've earned the right by doing something with your life - but that with someone like Riis (or Bruyneel) that sort of attitude isn't possible.

 

[proffate]

If Roche's perf in Spain is proof of doping, where is the evidence from his Tour, where he was being dropped with gay abandon?

LA was ****e for 10 months a year, doesn't mean he was clean. Stocking up on blood actually makes you worse not better.

Roche has put his foot in his mouth quite a lot re: doping. Talks up a storm against convicted dopers, except when they're his teammates or manager or boyhood hero; his agent is McQuaid's son; etc.

 

[sniper]

It is highly likely that Carrera were using transfusions in 1987, as were many teams.

experminenting with blood was en vogue already in the mid to late 70s, e.g. zoetemelk.

 

[gooner]

Like father like son.

Nico Roche suddenly found GT podium potential and climbing legs to boot.

I suppose those 'ol Bjarne Riis gains are working at La Vuelta where the commissaires are all having a siesta!

If someone told you that Nico would be a podium contender in 2013 back in 2010 after his 7th in the Vuelta would we be surprised? I don't see much wrong in his cllimbing but his TT raises a bit of suspicion but not enough for me to put a complete black mark against him. Stephen said at the start of the year that in a small period Riis helped him add 25 watts to his output. Where the alarm bells would go off is if he started performing like this in a completely flat TT also.

 

[The Hitch]

Vuelta 2010 was amazingly similar to this edition with 9 summit finishes. Here is Roche's finishing position on each stage taking out breaks that finished in front.

Malaga: 6th
Valdepenas de Jaen: 8th
Xoret de Cati: 10th
Alcoy: 3rd
Andorra: 14th
Pena Cabarga: 5th
Lagos de Covadonga: 6th
Alto de Cobetoria: 5th
Bola del Mundo: 6th

Of course the big difference so far is the TT, he was only 28th in 2010. I don't mind people claiming he was always doping(if that's what they believe) but to suggest he has never climbed at this level before is just nonsense.

I would argue the field in that Vuelta was potentially the weakest of any gt in a decade. Sastre came top 10 after 2 successive gt's, LLS came top 10 in that gt without even being in a breakaway

Murito went into that Vuelta in even worse shape than even this year cos he had been on peak for the whole season not just the Tour, and he came 4th (3rd).

Nibali won despite cracking on about 3 occasions, Tondo was a great rider no doubt but was still learning the ropes of gt contention.

Frank Schleck in 5th fair enough though the injury may have still been affecting him and we also know Frank doesn't give a **** about the other 2 gts so motivation?

And then theres Peter Velits.

IIRC the numbers for that Vuelta were pretty low too.

 

[The Hitch]

The difference this year may be he actually is finally focusing on the Vuelta. Before it was all on the Tour and the Vuelta came after.

 

[gooner]

When's the last time Roche Jnr showed this level of ability?

He is outclimbing some serious talent, Uran and Pozzovivo to name 2, and he is matching that of those whose names are not associated with clean cycling, Katusha, Valv, Radioshack.

He was climbing with the likes of Frank Schleck in 2010 and was less than a minute behind Rodriguez overall. This isn't something new we see now.

 

[pmcg76]

I would argue the field in that Vuelta was potentially the weakest of any gt in a decade. Sastre came top 10 after 2 successive gt's, LLS came top 10 in that gt without even being in a breakaway

Murito went into that Vuelta in even worse shape than even this year cos he had been on peak for the whole season not just the Tour, and he came 4th (3rd).

Nibali won despite cracking on about 3 occasions, Tondo was a great rider no doubt but was still learning the ropes of gt contention.

Frank Schleck in 5th fair enough though the injury may have still been affecting him and we also know Frank doesn't give a **** about the other 2 gts so motivation?

And then theres Peter Velits.

IIRC the numbers for that Vuelta were pretty low too.

How is that different from this year, Valverde, Rodriguez were going full tilt at the Tour, Horner is coming back from injury. Moreno has yet to prove himself in the big climbs. Only Nibali would be coming in fresh and admitting that he plans to be in top shape by week 3!!! The Vuelta was definitely not Pinot's main target this year. That is the thing about the Vuelta, there are always so many mitigating factors in analysing performance. Very often the Vuelta fields looks great but then a lot of the big names prove to be rubbish.

Roche was also Top 15 on every mountain/hilly stage in the 2012 Tour bar La Toussuire where if I remember correctly he went for the win but fell short and finished 19th. The Tour is of much higher quality of course than the Vuelta with most guys at their peak so I think top 15 in the Tour is consistent with where he is in this Vuelta.

 

[Benotti69]

If someone told you that Nico would be a podium contender in 2013 back in 2010 after his 7th in the Vuelta would we be surprised? I don't see much wrong in his cllimbing but his TT raises a bit of suspicion but not enough for me to put a complete black mark against him. Stephen said at the start of the year that in a small period Riis helped him add 25 watts to his output. Where the alarm bells would go off is if he started performing like this in a completely flat TT also.

...and that doesn't set the alarms bells ringing????

 

[Benotti69]

If Roche's perf in Spain is proof of doping, where is the evidence from his Tour, where he was being dropped with gay abandon?

Roche is a nice guy, but he's a bit French - the French mentality toward the two speed peloton - and was just coasting on the family name (ffs, how long was it he didn't even have a TT bike to practice on?). As his father spurred Kelly to finally get the finger out, Martin has spurred junior to finally take his head out of his behind. Even senior says junior has an attitude problem - you can't criticise him unless you've earned the right by doing something with your life - but that with someone like Riis (or Bruyneel) that sort of attitude isn't possible.

I dope to help old ladies across the road......

 

[gooner]

...and that doesn't set the alarms bells ringing????

As fmk pointed out above his father has questioned his attitude. He had been pushing him to move teams for a while. AG2R seemed to be too much of a comfort zone for him. I'm not happy he's riding with Riis but he did need a more demanding DS and a change of air to give him the kick up the backside he needed. Brian Smith in commentary did similarly after Evans caught him early on in the 2011 Dauphine TT and questioned his mentality wondering was he was applying himself enough in this area. Smith is good friends with Stephen.

“Since joining the team I have been to several training camps, worked on my time trial position, met nutritional experts in Copenhagen…the list goes on. I have had my busiest winter ever trying to find little gains to improve me as a bike rider, and the team have helped me with this and in fact pushed me to do it when sometimes I would have preferred to stay at home and train” he said. “They have confidence in me as a rider and have put a lot of effort in to me, I hope I can repay them with good results.”

 

[Benotti69]

As fmk pointed out above his father has questioned his attitude. He had been pushing him to move teams for a while. AG2R seemed to be too much of a comfort zone for him. I'm not happy he's riding with Riis but he did need a more demanding DS and a change of air to give him the kick up the backside he needed. Brian Smith in commentary did similarly after Evans caught him early on in the 2011 Dauphine TT and questioned his mentality wondering was he was applying himself enough in this area. Smith is good friends with Stephen.

Roche Snr questioning his attitude could allude to attitude to doping.

Roche Snr big proponent of omerta, so no doubt big proponent of doping. Snr still denies the Conconi doping.

Riis is a doping DS, end of. Riding for Riis is imo doping. Riis is up there with Bruyneel, LeFevere etc......

kick up the backside, marginal gains, better training, warm downs yada yada heard it all before.

 

[sniper]

Snr is also a vehement supporter of McQuaid.
Junior is not gonna test positive as long as McQuaid controls anti-doping.
And even without McQuaid, we haven't got the slightest idea how easy it is at present to beat the testing. Probably (still) much easier than one would like to think, with new undetectable products, new masking agents, microdosing, you name it. The 2013 TdF had zero positives. Go figure.

so the question wrt Junior is: why wouldn't he dope?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

He was climbing with the likes of Frank Schleck in 2010 and was less than a minute behind Rodriguez overall. This isn't something new we see now.

Exactly.

Firstly, I am always reluctant to discuss a performance in an ongoing GT, because he may lose 5 minutes on the next MTF, making all discussion redundant.
Roche has always been yo-yoing with the same group of climbers, (FSchleck, Piti, Basso) so there is little difference now.
On AG2R he was their main GT rider, on Saxo he took a good gamble working for Contador at the Tour and being allowed the opportunity to have a tilt at the Vuelta.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Roche Snr questioning his attitude could allude to attitude to doping.

Oh come on, please. Use your eyes, use your intelligence. You could see the guy was coasting while with French teams, you could see the guy wasn't trying as hard as he could be. He was popular as a diarist and the only Irish rider, what need had he for performances to back up his hype?

I'm not saying he's not doping, but ffs, wake up and smell the coffee, doping is not and should never be the default explanation for performance improvements. Anyone with half a brain would have expected a performance improvement from Roche this year, given the easy life he's had on French teams and the competition from his cousin. Is the performance he's putting in above the level expected? At the moment I would say no. The guy showed flashes in his TT performances before which indicated there was plenty of room for improvement, I would say there is still room.

 

[gooner]

Roche Snr questioning his attitude could allude to attitude to doping.

Roche Snr big proponent of omerta, so no doubt big proponent of doping. Snr still denies the Conconi doping.

Riis is a doping DS, end of. Riding for Riis is imo doping. Riis is up there with Bruyneel, LeFevere etc......

kick up the backside, marginal gains, better training, warm downs yada yada heard it all before.

Do you see every statement with a doping angle? Plenty of athletes across all sports sometimes need a kick up a backside and no it's nothing got to do doping, just in your head though.

You can't put the sins of his father either down to his son and he's entitled to give his opinion on his son's career. He's airing his observations publicly and I happen to agree with some of it but not where he pushed him to ride for Riis in the end.

 

[roundabout]

He was climbing with the likes of Frank Schleck in 2010 and was less than a minute behind Rodriguez overall. This isn't something new we see now.

Rodriguez lost 3 minutes in the TT to Roche that year.

And of course when he is hanging on to Pinot (who showed at his first Tour that he wasn't even scheduled to ride much more uphill than Roche has ever done), Basso (who is old, but his worst GT placing when he was captain since his return from his ban is equal to Roche's best), Rodriguez (who has improved massively and podiumed his last 3 GTs), Valverde and Nibali out come all sorts of excuses.

 

[The Hitch]

Exactly.

Firstly, I am always reluctant to discuss a performance in an ongoing GT, because he may lose 5 minutes on the next MTF, making all discussion redundant.
Roche has always been yo-yoing with the same group of climbers, (FSchleck, Piti, Basso) so there is little difference now.
On AG2R he was their main GT rider, on Saxo he took a good gamble working for Contador at the Tour and being allowed the opportunity to have a tilt at the Vuelta.

You have your talents no doubt but i think you are playing away games when it comes to recent cycling history.

First of all when did Roche face Valverde? For about 1 week of the Vuelta last year before he faded. Valverde was banned for most of the period since Roche became a gt level rider. After that 1 week Valverde continued to climb amazingly while Roche faded. And even before his ban, in all his nearly decade at the top. Valverde was climbing significantly better than Roche ever has. So I dont get how Roche has been yo yoing with him.

Basso. Again there can be found 1 tiny example. 2010 Tour for the short period that Basso cared. But Basso was coming of the Giro there so it hardly counts. Apart from that they didn't overlap gts, apart from the 2011 Tour which was Roche's worst one and Basso, even though off form due to a previous injury, was still like the 6th best climber in the race.

Frank Schleck? Again 1 example. 2010 Vuelta. They were both the same level. Only that was basically Frank Schlecks worst gt of his career apart from 2007 (that he finished anyway) and it was nico roche's best one. And Schleck still beat Roche.

Now you may say you werent talking about direct head to head results but about him being the same level as those riders, but really he has always been at least one level below those climbers if not 2 or 3. All of them have superior gt records in the last 3 or 4 years. Even outside of that Frank Schleck has won Suisse, Criterium International, podiumed Liege. Basso has won Lugano, podiumed Trentino and top 5'd Lombardia. And Valverde, if one were to include his 2010 results which seeing as this is a performance discussion not a legitimacy one, one should has won like a dozen races and podiumed another 2 dozen in that period, including worlds, Liege, Paris Nice, Pais Vasco, Amstel gold.


Main gt rider at ag2r? Again up for dispute. He was their Tour leader 3 years (or was Peraud 2012, cant remember), but that was also because Gadret who was performing better in gts, personally chose the Giro.

None of this has anything to do with Roche doping or not, just commenting on the quote above.

 

[gooner]

Rodriguez lost 3 minutes in the TT to Roche that year.

And of course when he is hanging on to Pinot (who showed at his first Tour that he wasn't even scheduled to ride much more uphill than Roche has ever done), Basso (who is old, but his worst GT placing when he was captain since his return from his ban is equal to Roche's best), Rodriguez (who has improved massively and podiumed his last 3 GTs), Valverde and Nibali out come all sorts of excuses.

Rodriguez hasn't showed the form yet like he has in recent GT'